Toynbee gives a death blow to the chauvinism of Greece

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  • Epirot
    Member
    • Mar 2010
    • 399

    Toynbee gives a death blow to the chauvinism of Greece

    Arnold Toynbee was a British historian who has authored twelve-volume analysis of the rise and fall of civilizations. Once maggotsontheweb promoted his views on the alleged Greekness of Macedonia. But, they intentionally did not see the reverse side of the coin. Toynbee criticized what he called as 'historical sentiment', that is arguments taken out from conditions that once existed or were supposed to exist, but which are no longer real at the present moment. According him, Greek nationalists insist so strongly on the traditions about Alexander the Great, though they have been buried with the drift of time. The annexation of Macedonia by Greece is compared with the similar annexation of Tripoli by Italy.


    Nationality & the war, Arnold Joseph Toynbee, 1915

    So even a historian with Greek sympathies, condemn the Greek chauvinism on Macedonia.
    Last edited by Epirot; 08-18-2011, 12:07 PM.
    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!
  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    #2
    well put there Epirot i share the same senriments.The greeks will vietually say anything to hold on to macedonia.I think deep down they aren't as oblivious to everything they made out to be.
    Last edited by George S.; 08-18-2011, 11:50 AM. Reason: ed
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • cultea
      Banned
      • Jul 2011
      • 126

      #3
      I can hardly get the point of post#1, but I would suggest you should have found a relevant thread (whichever that might be) and post it there. Or post it on this other forum you're referring to. This is the second time you're telling us "Hey, I was reading a conversation on another forum, so I'll post my answer here".
      Also, your hilarious and maximalistic thread titles start to remind me of TrueMacedonian. "The… death blow to the chauvinism of Greece"??? Where is it? Were the "Greek chauvinists" aware of Toynbee's existence when he gave his... "death blow" back in 1915? I'm expecting something better from you, in your next thread, something like "The one and ultimate argument that will make all Greeks take their life".

      Comment

      • makedonche
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2008
        • 3242

        #4
        Originally posted by cultea View Post
        I can hardly get the point of post#1, but I would suggest you should have found a relevant thread (whichever that might be) and post it there. Or post it on this other forum you're referring to. This is the second time you're telling us "Hey, I was reading a conversation on another forum, so I'll post my answer here".
        Also, your hilarious and maximalistic thread titles start to remind me of TrueMacedonian. "The… death blow to the chauvinism of Greece"??? Where is it? Were the "Greek chauvinists" aware of Toynbee's existence when he gave his... "death blow" back in 1915? I'm expecting something better from you, in your next thread, something like "The one and ultimate argument that will make all Greeks take their life".
        Cultea
        Which part of this post are you having difficulties with? The fact you don't like it is irrelevant, the fact you don't like the title is irrelevant. Why don't you address the point of the post - Greek chauvanism" and prove it wrong or discredit it with factual information instead of rhetorical questions and statements which carry no relevance to the post!

        @Epirot
        Thanks for the information, feel free to post more if you can.
        On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

        Comment

        • cultea
          Banned
          • Jul 2011
          • 126

          #5
          Originally posted by makedonche View Post
          Why don't you address the point of the post - Greek chauvanism" and prove it wrong or discredit it with factual information instead of rhetorical questions and statements which carry no relevance to the post!
          I don't get his argument. If "the drift of time had buried the tradition" there would be no "historical sentiment" or at least it wouldn't be powerful.
          The ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great were the main arguments of the Greeks and their main tool to "de-Bulgarize" the population.

          Comment

          • makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2008
            • 3242

            #6
            Originally posted by cultea View Post
            I don't get his argument. If "the drift of time had buried the tradition" there would be no "historical sentiment" or at least it wouldn't be powerful.
            The ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great were the main arguments of the Greeks and their main tool to "de-Bulgarize" the population.
            Cultea
            If you don't get, fine, move on don't post about it. As for your arguments about the ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great - irrelevant to this thread, youv'e already posted your views and opinions about that matter, if you keep posting this sort of response to information it will be classified as spam or trolling and you will disappear as a result of it. The thread is quite clear and simple, you can have your opinions on the subject and post your factual information or references to repudiate it, but don't try to derail the thread with irrelevance because you don't get it.
            On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

            Comment

            • Stojacanec
              Member
              • Dec 2009
              • 809

              #7
              Originally posted by cultea View Post
              The ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great were the main arguments of the Greeks and their main tool to "de-Bulgarize" the population.
              ????????

              Hey? Where did you get this from. It makes no sense at all.

              Care to start up a new thread and prove these claims you make.

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                #8
                Arnold Toynbee was one of the greatest historians of the recent century. He wrote several masterpiece books.

                He had a pro-Greek stance b4 the WW-1 since he was a member of British nobility, so it was a quite normal behavior for people like himself. He was also a member of several pro-Greek organizations but after WW-1, he didn't approve the Greek invasion of Anatolia. Especially after seeing the massacres, rape and pillages of Greek army in aegean Anatolia, he was strictly against the British policy of Greece. Then he later become the enemy of Venizelos`s Greek state because of this.
                Last edited by Onur; 08-19-2011, 03:34 AM.

                Comment

                • Voltron
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 1362

                  #9
                  [QUOTE]
                  Originally posted by Onur View Post
                  Arnold Toynbee was one of the greatest historians of the recent century. He wrote several masterpiece books.
                  Yes he did, he also wrote one regarding Turkey's extermination of indiginous ppls in Anatolia. Onur, I wont let you escape with your one-sided Greek bashing. For every piece of dirt you try to dig up I will provide you a mountain. I wouldnt really care so much if it wasnt for your arrogant attitude and your denial of your country's past attrocities. Dont try to speak from a higher ground. It just wont work.

                  Especially after seeing the massacres, rape and pillages of Greek army in aegean Anatolia, he was strictly against the British policy of Greece. Then he later become the enemy of Venizelos`s Greek state because of this.
                  "In one way or another, the Central Government enforced and controlled the execution of the scheme, as it alone had originated the conception of it; and the Young Turkish Ministers and their associates at Constantinople are directly and personally responsible, from beginning to end, for the gigantic crime that devastated the Near East in 1915."

                  Comment

                  • Voltron
                    Banned
                    • Jan 2011
                    • 1362

                    #10
                    Back on topic, I dont think comparing Tripoli to Macedonia is entirley correct. If we are to consider Ancient Macedonia to be ethnically Greek (which we do) then the reason slightly differs than the "Roman" one Italy used. Although he does make a point that things do change over time and to use past pretext's can be a dangerous path to follow.

                    Comment

                    • Stojacanec
                      Member
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 809

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                      . If we are to consider Ancient Macedonia to be ethnically Greek (which we do)
                      correction...we don't.

                      Comment

                      • Voltron
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2011
                        • 1362

                        #12
                        ^ I meant we as us Greeks. I know that you dont.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13669

                          #13
                          Voltron/Cultea, in nearly every thread you clowns are posting on, all we are reading is the false claim that Macedonia and her historical figures are Greek. We are well aware of the deluded positions that you hold, and we are well aware of how full of shit the both of you are. Furthermore, you are both well aware of the positions that we hold, given that we are actually Macedonians, and not Greeks, Vlachs or some Christian conglomerates with Asian ancestry, like you are.

                          I am positive that the both of you knuckleheads have read the rules of this forum and have taken note that one of them does not allow anti-Macedonian propaganda. Yet here you are, after a long spell of behaving like something that resembles 'normality', back to your old tricks again.

                          Get it through your thick skulls that this isn't the place where the ancestry of the Macedonian people is tarnished with manipulative lies, garbage and that pathetic Greek propaganda that you've both been regurgitating as of late. This is the place where the Macedonian point of view about their OWN people is given prevalence, because after all, that is their OWN history.

                          I think both of you will be going on a holiday very soon. And you won't be given any courtesy or explanation, because we have seen this sick little game that you two maggots are playing time and again from the previous maggots (or yourselves posing as alternative maggots) that have been on this forum. Quite frankly, I have not the time nor the patience to go through this cyclic stupidity once more. Ask yourselves why you're here. Is it to learn more about the real Macedonians, or to try and push through this fake 'Macedonian' trash that morons like yourselves hang on to as a geographical identity. To me, it seems like the latter. In which case, you serve no valid purpose here. The only Greek with half a brain on this forum at the moment is Agamoi Thytai, who, even though sharing similar opinions to yourselves, at least tries to respond with some sources and doesn't feel the need to continually harp on about the same trash with no substance. Or perhaps he is also going through a phase of 'normality' like you were not long ago.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Epirot
                            Member
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 399

                            #14
                            Originally posted by cultea View Post
                            I can hardly get the point of post#1, but I would suggest you should have found a relevant thread (whichever that might be) and post it there. .
                            Why do you have trouble to get the point? It's crystal clear: Arnold Toynbee who had a pro-Greek stance condemned the chauvinism of Greeks toward Macedonia. He was disgusted with the predatory goals of Greeks toward its neighbors.

                            Or post it on this other forum you're referring to. This is the second time you're telling us "Hey, I was reading a conversation on another forum, so I'll post my answer here".
                            The reason why I don't post on their forums is because I don't go to the sanitation of black waters. It's above all a matter of hygiene. They will ban you on the moment you expose something that goes against their mainstream. They are just a bunch of racists who applaud and encourage the racism of each other.

                            Where is it? Were the "Greek chauvinists" aware of Toynbee's existence when he gave his... "death blow" back in 1915?
                            Here I lost you! It's not the issue whether Greek chauvinists were aware of Toynbee's existence or not. Toynbee just noticed the wild chauvinism of Greece to conquer Macedonia on the name of 'historical sentiments'.
                            Last edited by Epirot; 08-19-2011, 06:32 AM.
                            IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                            Comment

                            • Voltron
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 1362

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Voltron/Cultea, in nearly every thread you clowns are posting on, all we are reading is the false claim that Macedonia and her historical figures are Greek. We are well aware of the deluded positions that you hold, and we are well aware of how full of shit the both of you are. Furthermore, you are both well aware of the positions that we hold, given that we are actually Macedonians, and not Greeks, Vlachs or some Christian conglomerates with Asian ancestry, like you are.

                              I am positive that the both of you knuckleheads have read the rules of this forum and have taken note that one of them does not allow anti-Macedonian propaganda. Yet here you are, after a long spell of behaving like something that resembles 'normality', back to your old tricks again.

                              Get it through your thick skulls that this isn't the place where the ancestry of the Macedonian people is tarnished with manipulative lies, garbage and that pathetic Greek propaganda that you've both been regurgitating as of late. This is the place where the Macedonian point of view about their OWN people is given prevalence, because after all, that is their OWN history.

                              I think both of you will be going on a holiday very soon. And you won't be given any courtesy or explanation, because we have seen this sick little game that you two maggots are playing time and again from the previous maggots (or yourselves posing as alternative maggots) that have been on this forum. Quite frankly, I have not the time nor the patience to go through this cyclic stupidity once more. Ask yourselves why you're here. Is it to learn more about the real Macedonians, or to try and push through this fake 'Macedonian' trash that morons like yourselves hang on to as a geographical identity. To me, it seems like the latter. In which case, you serve no valid purpose here. The only Greek with half a brain on this forum at the moment is Agamoi Thytai, who, even though sharing similar opinions to yourselves, at least tries to respond with some sources and doesn't feel the need to continually harp on about the same trash with no substance. Or perhaps he is also going through a phase of 'normality' like you were not long ago.
                              SOM, not too long ago I was flamed by a couple of my compatriots on AMAC forum stating my "capitulation" to your demands regarding my participation on this forum. Even though that couldnt be further than the truth its apparant that thats the perception that was given. I told you a million times that as for myself speaking there is no intention to come here and try to convert anyone or to try to convince anyone of my positions and is the reason why I do not post sources. Most of the time I just speak from the hip and it may seem to you as more of the same. I will be taking a holiday from here as you suggest, its obvious we are antagonizing each other at this point. Have a good one man and relax for fucks sake.
                              Last edited by Voltron; 08-19-2011, 06:46 AM.

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