British Views on Multiculturalism...

[Vangelovski]

...and their hypocracy:

Cameron also said “under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, different cultures have been encouraged to live separate lives. We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values.”

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/43660.html

Yet they expect exactly this from Macedonia. I wonder how vassal politicians and their lapdogs feel when their masters make announcements like these...maybe it just goes over their heads?

[makedonche]

Vangelovski

...so true!
And then there is this little gem to go on with...

It’s high time someone spoke in favour of defending ‘liberal western values’.

Perhaps we should start talking about it being high time we started defending "liberal Macedonian values"?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't think David Cameron agrees with the decisions made by those previously in his position, although I am not sure of his involvement in governments of the past. He has expressed understanding of Macedonia's position:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=52682&highlight=david+cameron#post52682

The reason for the long name is that the Greeks complained vigorously that Macedonia already existed as a region of Greece and so could not be a separate country as well. This seems churlish in the extreme. The Greeks have their own country, their own name and have been showered with financial assistance since joining the EU. These people - the Macedonians - have recently escaped communism and have virtually nothing. And as if Greek pettiness wasn't enough the Albanians tend to dream of incorporating a large slice of FYR Macedonia into a Greater Albania while the Bulgars tend to think of the country as part of a Greater Bulgaria.

Yet as far as I could see, the country - and I am determined to call it Macedonia - has a perfect right to exist. The population is overwhelmingly Macedonian, with a distinctive language, culture and history. It is poorer than some of the other old Yugoslav republics, but considerably richer than Albania. The people are civilised, friendly and highly educated.

[Jankovska]

I think you should look at the gov of the country you live in and leave the other countries alone, afterall in Britain I have never called myself anything but a Macedonian, I never have had to and Britain unlike Australia at least partly recognises Macedonia. David Cameron has on many occassions shown to have huge understanding of Macedonia unlike politicians in OZ. There is hypocracy everywhere, with the Macedonian people too. But clean your yard first before you point out at the mess of others.

[Vangelovski]

I think you should look at the gov of the country you live in and leave the other countries alone, afterall in Britain I have never called myself anything but a Macedonian, I never have had to and Britain unlike Australia at least partly recognises Macedonia. David Cameron has on many occassions shown to have huge understanding of Macedonia unlike politicians in OZ. There is hypocracy everywhere, with the Macedonian people too. But clean your yard first before you point out at the mess of others.

Jankovska,

Have you forgotten your medication again? Why is it that you perceive everything as a personal attack? Perhaps you should re-read the article and the comments I made, have a think about the wider implications.

But just to demonstrate the complete idiocy of what you just said (normally parroted by UMD), should the Macedonians under Greek occupation also 'clean their own yard' before they point out the 'mess of others'?

[indigen]

...and their hypocracy:

Yet they expect exactly this from Macedonia. I wonder how vassal politicians and their lapdogs feel when their masters make announcements like these...maybe it just goes over their heads?

Vangelovski, I do not really think it is either easy or logical to compare western concepts (and policy implementations) of "multiculturalism", which is little more than mere tokenism and some "TOLERATION" (which when opposed to RESPECT is actually a concept of RACISM in itself) of different cultures by the mainstream one, even with that of what has operated in Macedonia before implementation of the "Ramkoven dogovor" (aka Framework Agreement of 2001). The FA is a system of APARTHEID that is bound to collapse as soon as the Ghegs get sufficient numbers (or feel they have opportunity and capacity) to take over completely or a sufficient chunk of Macedonian land to satisfy their ambit territorial claims.

Secondly, even President Ivanov (in 2010) has openly stated that the FA is economically ruinous and the state needs to double its current GDP in order to implement it "fully". In political terms, the FA means DECONSTRUCTION of a Macedonian state into a temporary, (before the Ghegs can assert themselves more forcefully!) non-Macedonian one that belongs to ALL communities equally (which, SADLY, many Macedonians FAIL TO UNDERSTAND and COMPREHEND the CONSEQUENCES of this!), which in no way can be compared to any concept of "multiculturalism" in Europe or Australia!

Lastly, given all the above and in the words of President Ivanov and Co, Macedonia in 2011 will be "CELEBRATING the 10 year JUBILEE" of the "Ramkoven dogovor" (OFA). Thus I am sure Macedonians will be "jumping for joy" in the coming year's "celebrations" of this "memorable and momentous occasion".

[Soldier of Macedon]

Jankovska, I think you've misunderstood the point, I don't believe this was an attack on Cameron, but rather on overall western perceptions and hypocrisy concerning multiculturalism.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, I do not really think it is either easy or logical to compare western concepts (and policy implementations) of "multiculturalism", which is little more than mere tokenism and some "TOLERATION" (which when opposed to RESPECT is actually a concept of RACISM in itself) of different cultures by the mainstream one, even with that of what has operated in Macedonia before implementation of the "Ramkoven dogovor" (aka Framework Agreement of 2001). The FA is a system of APARTHEID that is bound to collapse as soon as the Ghegs get sufficient numbers (or feel they have opportunity and capacity) to take over completely or a sufficient chunk of Macedonian land to satisfy their ambit territorial claims...

...In political terms, the FA means DECONSTRUCTION of a Macedonian state into a temporary, (before the Ghegs can assert themselves more forcefully!) non-Macedonian one that belongs to ALL communities equally (which, SADLY, many Macedonians FAIL TO UNDERSTAND and COMPREHEND the CONSEQUENCES of this!), which in no way can be compared to any concept of "multiculturalism" in Europe or Australia!

I don't consider it illogical to compare "western" multiculturalism and the Framework Agreement. The Framework Agreement is in fact a logical outcome of multiculturism. This is because of the habit of defining multiculturalism in terms of collective rather than individual rights.

The fact that some 'western' states have been able to deny minority groups self-governance in an institutional sense does not mean that they have integrated these minorities into their societies or that they do not live in their own segregated sub-societies. Further, every 'western' state (that I can think of) has allowed minority groups to act in a manner that does run contrary to liberal democracy and republicanism (their political values) at some point and in some form.

Multiculturalism in other parts of the 'west' can be compared to the Framework Agreement in Macedonia because of the political power provided to ethnically-based groups. Multiculturalism, based on collective rights, has logically led to outcomes such as Belgium, Switzerland and Canada. Ethnically-based local autonomy in the UK (devolution to Scotland and Wales), Italy and Spain (among others) is another logical outcome of group-based 'multiculturalism'. It is not as 'token' as many Macedonians would like to believe, but in fact involves real power based on meaningful self-government.

I do think countries like Australia and the United States have done a better job at managing multicultural societies, and this has been possible because they focus on the primacy of the individual, rather than collective "rights", which can ironically infringe on individual natural rights.

This is not a defence of the Framework Agreement, far be it from me to do such a thing. I'm merely pointing out that multiculturalism in 'western' states has led to the same outcome that was forced onto Macedonia because of the propensity to think in terms of collective rather than individual rights and that they can be directly compared to the Macedonian situation because of the high degree of political power that has been provided to ethnic groups in these states.

Cameron's rejection of 'multiculturalism' in Britian (taking into consideration the British circumstances) is, therefore, hypocritical.

In terms of the Framework Agreement, I completely agree - it has destroyed Macedonia as a Macedonian state and may destroy it as a state fullstop. Personally, I can only see two solutions. One would be to withdraw "collective rights" and implement a system based on individual rights (which I highly doubt will happen any time soon) and the other is the Georgievski solution of dividing the state, which is highly likely to happen anyway if the Framework Agreement continues to exist (though this one has obvious drawbacks).

[indigen]

I don't consider it illogical to compare "western" multiculturalism and the Framework Agreement. The Framework Agreement is in fact a logical outcome of multiculturism. This is because of the habit of defining multiculturalism in terms of collective rather than individual rights.

I don't know about that and I don't intend to argue for the sake of arguing. To me, "multiculturalism" as we know it in Australia and as I understand it to apply in some western countries is a token, more or less, policy that has the ultimate aim of "integrating" (assimilating) their immigrant (foreign imported) societies in a more sophisticated way. But, IMO, immigrant Muslim (and possibly Hindu) communities are unlikely to get assimilated or fully integrated regardless of what policy is used and (once they achieve a certain percent of the population) are going to be a cause of continual cultural and political friction there.

The fact that some 'western' states have been able to deny minority groups self-governance in an institutional sense does not mean that they have integrated these minorities into their societies or that they do not live in their own segregated sub-societies.

I agree! There IS a LOT of oppressed and suppressed native national minorities in many European countries (amongst others in the world) and they deserve their national self-determination. Catalonians, Basques, Irish, Welshmen, Scots, Macedonians, Palestinians and Tamils, amongst others I can think of, ALL, IMO, deserve to obtain their full national self-determination rights!

Further, every 'western' state (that I can think of) has allowed minority groups to act in a manner that does run contrary to liberal democracy and republicanism (their political values) at some point and in some form.

I don't know how a "liberal democracy" is supposed to run and I don't have all that much trust or faith in "democracy" given the track records of the various countries and how it has applied to the those above I listed as deserving their national self-determination (amongst many others I did not list).

Multiculturalism in other parts of the 'west' can be compared to the Framework Agreement in Macedonia because of the political power provided to ethnically-based groups. Multiculturalism, based on collective rights, has logically led to outcomes such as Belgium, Switzerland and Canada.

I disagree here because they may use such generic terms as multiculturalism but in fact they mean a MULTI-ETHNIC STATE STRUCTURE, which IS EXACTLY what those three states mentioned by you are. Multiculturalism as applied to the immigrant societies most certainly could not be equated with the rights of the particular ethnicities that constitute the multi-ethic state.

Ethnically-based local autonomy in the UK (devolution to Scotland and Wales), Italy and Spain (among others) is another logical outcome of group-based 'multiculturalism'. It is not as 'token' as many Macedonians would like to believe, but in fact involves real power based on meaningful self-government.

I see it as a logical evolution of national rights being asserted by the downtrodden (historical) nations in multi-national states and unrelated to any concept of multiculturalism.

I do think countries like Australia and the United States have done a better job at managing multicultural societies, and this has been possible because they focus on the primacy of the individual, rather than collective "rights", which can ironically infringe on individual natural rights.

Those deserving national rights, the Indigenous ethnic groups in Australia, have been denied even very basic elements of national rights and policies of extermination and total assimilation were (and still are) long at work here. America (US) is more complex but there are many national groups that could easily qualify for separate national rights and autonomous national development that have been denied their rights.

This is not a defence of the Framework Agreement, far be it from me to do such a thing.

I am aware of this!

I'm merely pointing out that multiculturalism in 'western' states has led to the same outcome that was forced onto Macedonia because of the propensity to think in terms of collective rather than individual rights and that they can be directly compared to the Macedonian situation because of the high degree of political power that has been provided to ethnic groups in these states.

I can only say that if Germany and England find it hard to accept their own mild multicultural policies as they apply to their immigrant communities, then it is (as you say) highly hypocritical to be preaching and imposing a multi-ethnic (Apartheid) society on others.

Cameron's rejection of 'multiculturalism' in Britian (taking into consideration the British circumstances) is, therefore, hypocritical.

Is he implying devolution when he is criticising "multicuturalism"?

In terms of the Framework Agreement, I completely agree - it has destroyed Macedonia as a Macedonian state and may destroy it as a state fullstop.

Sad to agree on this but it is REALITY AS IT STANDS NOW!

Personally, I can only see two solutions. One would be to withdraw "collective rights" and implement a system based on individual rights (which I highly doubt will happen any time soon)

Agree with you, Macedonians aren't prepared and don't have the stomach (ideological mettle) for a fight with the Ghegs that will certainly eventuate in such a situation.

and the other is the Georgievski solution of dividing the state, which is highly likely to happen anyway if the Framework Agreement continues to exist (though this one has obvious drawbacks).

This is the MAP you are talking about:


And the following is one provided by Niko about the current trends in local government:


Far too late, IMO, for that now and the Ghegs have a much larger appetite than what was on offer then. Is it not "funny" how the Greeks are now putting out feelers for a "union" between "Skopjans and Greeks" in these circumstances? Who knows, it might end up being an appealing offer at some point, seeing how there are many whose only aim in life is entering EU and NATO at any price.

[George S.]

The weastern powers have imposed on macedonia extra demands that's supposed to be related to multiclturism.That is to give more & more rights to the minorities like Albanians,seats of parliament & their own representation & also making on them impositions like the ramkoviot dogovor which negates macedonian soverignity.So much that minorities like albanians show no respect & look towards to the day they can break away.In contrast the macedonians are of tolerating of the albanians a lot of things that western powers would not put up with.If minorities displayed the same things as albanians do in macedonia i'm sure they would not tolerate in Britain.Certain minorities in europe are being expelled especially in germany & soon in france.

[indigen]

The weastern powers have imposed on macedonia extra demands that's supposed to be related to multiclturism.

Not related to "multiculturalism" but to national sovereignty and the deconstruction of the Macedonian national and ethnic entity!

That is to give more & more rights to the minorities like Albanians,seats of parliament & their own representation & also making on them impositions like the ramkoviot dogovor which negates macedonian soverignity. So much that minorities like albanians show no respect & look towards to the day they can break away.

Outdated thinking is that "Albanians" are just waiting to "breakaway" when in fact they have a much bigger appetite and agenda and that looks like being very achievable in the not too distant future!

In contrast the macedonians are of tolerating of the albanians a lot of things that western powers would not put up with. If minorities displayed the same things as albanians do in macedonia i'm sure they would not tolerate in Britain.Certain minorities in europe are being expelled especially in germany & soon in france.

George, if you really are a university student, as you claim, you should try and display some academic acumen in order for us to believe you are not spinning fibs!

As it is, you (and others like you) need to stop talking about the "Albanians" being a "minority" and about "minority rights" since Macedonia is NOT any more a national state of Macedonians but a state of "communities" - Multi-Ethnic State. Please read the "Ramkoven dogovor" and/or the current 2001 UCK "Constitution" of Macedonia and update (or deepen) your information or lack thereof.

[George S.]

In terms of multicultrism i was meaning that the western powers want the macedonians to aspire to the "european standard" one of tolerance & giving greater rights.It does lead to loss of sovereignity & also erosion of Macedonian rights.So all in all these powers that be are advocating things they would not do themselves.In other words they don't give a shit about Macedonia.Macedonia should be able to decide for itself what path it should take,We see in contrast that the western powers are taking opposite paths as it affcts their soveregnitry.We agree on that.I have allways said it's all a detriment to macedonia to follow the paths set byt the western powers.Also the Albanians want a greater allbania which is the long term goal.The short term goal is to secede from macedonia.Rather than offer support they are a hinderance to macedonian sovereignity.
Indigen i'm in agreement with you in what you said about the ethnic communities.Thanks for your feedback.

[makedonche]

In terms of multicultrism i was meaning that the western powers want the macedonians to aspire to the "european standard" one of tolerance & giving greater rights.It does lead to loss of sovereignity & also erosion of Macedonian rights.So all in all these powers that be are advocating things they would not do themselves.In other words they don't give a shit about Macedonia.Macedonia should be able to decide for itself what path it should take,We see in contrast that the western powers are taking opposite paths as it affcts their soveregnitry.We agree on that.I have allways said it's all a detriment to macedonia to follow the paths set byt the western powers.Also the Albanians want a greater allbania which is the long term goal.The short term goal is to secede from macedonia.Rather than offer support they are a hinderance to macedonian sovereignity.
Indigen i'm in agreement with you in what you said about the ethnic communities.Thanks for your feedback.

George S
Fair comment!

[indigen]

The short term goal is to secede from Macedonia

George S
Fair comment!

Completely off course deduction and probably results from parroting some cheap old ingrained Yugo (Commie) propaganda myth/s!

The Ghegs are NOT going anywhere with what they control now because they have designs on much more territory and are willing to hang around for quite some time in order to get it. All the demographic projections point to they being successful in achieving those aims and designs in the not too distant future!




Македонците стануваат малцинство во Македонија?!
Среда, 02 Февруари 2011

Македонците за себе велат дека се народ познат по тоа што поминал низ многу тешки периоди и премрежја, но сепак опстанал. Но последните години тој е пред уште еден предизвик, него го убива белата чума, односно има многу повеќе починати отколку родени.

Официјално според податоците на Државниот завод за статистика во текот на 2009 година биле родени 23.684 деца а во истата година починале 19.060, што значи населението било зголемено за 4624 лица. И во 2010 според податоците на ЦИА Македонија ќе забележи позитивен природен прираст, според овие податоци населението во нашата земја во текот на 2010 година било зголемено за 0.25 проценти.

Но доколку се анализира морталитетот и наталитетот на етничките заедници посебно, може да се види, дека носител на природниот прираст се етничките заедници на нашата земја кои припаѓаат на исламската вероисповест.

Тоа го потврдуваат и податоците на Државниот завод за статистика според кои во 2009 година, од вкупниот број на родени, Македонци биле 12.490 а починале 14.332, што значи дека во таа година 1.842 Македонци повеќе починале отколку што се родиле. Истата година биле родени 7454 Албанци, а починале 3023, па така во 2009 година, бројот на Албанци се зголемил за 4431 жител. Освен кај Албанците зголемен природен прираст има и кај Турците и Ромите.


Македонските градови стануваат села, албанските села градови.

[....]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=88020&postcount=92

[George S.]

Indigen what is the solution to the albanian problem in macedonia.In other words how do you stop them from taking over.Please explain.I have read many articles that say that they either want a federation or they simply want to secede eventually.From your maps they are slowly taking over macedonia.I remember Trajkovski saying that if the 2001 macedonian forces were allowed to fight harder they would have no albanian problem today.