Macedonia and NATO

[Vangelovski]

OM,

How many times do we need to go around in the same circles? How about you try and digest some of the threads that have already dealt with your baseless assumptions and scaremongering?

[fyrOM]

Hey BukTop I don’t have a doctorate in anything. Maybe I don’t know enough…want to jump in and shed some more light.

[fyrOM]

Tell me OM what would happen to Macedonia if we did this? My view - there would be much financial hardship and pain, loss of international political clout, less investment into the country and so on but our identity would be that which we chose and nobody could fuck with it or negotiate it or bribe us to alter it, and that is worth more than any investors/club memberships or whatever else they are using to make ROM bend over!

At last a sort of answer to my What next question. What you say are very likely the outcomes if we are not part of the eu or another alliance loose or otherwise. On our own alone thing will start grinding down as you have correctly identified. I’m not trying to be facetious about this. I’m trying to point out there is more to the question. Lets play this through.

Macedonia has told the eu nato and un to f off until they decide to accept the name Macedonia and no other.
We dance in the streets celebrating and maybe get drunk. The morning will come no matter what we do.
Then what.

As you have identified foreign companies from the eu back away from investing in Macedonia.
Eu subsidies for agriculture products stop. Prolet might be able to tell us how much this is.
Infrastructure grants also dry up. Macedonia already has infrastructure problems which hinder greater investment both internally but more importantly externally.
Other grants for various things stop eg such as the one that set up our internet.
Preference can be given to agro products from eu countries or higher tariffs imposed on Macedonian agro products making them less competitive or the Macedonian farmers have to settle for less. How much less when input cost such as diesel for tractors combines ect are set external of Macedonia before the Macedonian farmer say give up it costs more to produce then to sell it.
A blanket rule is impose all Macedonian products must have the labelled product of FYROM or will not be accepted for sale in Europe Macedonia’s main market. This extends to usa Canada Australia ect.
Do you FYROM your self or do you f your self.
Visa restrictions are imposed again.
Students and others find it harder to travel.
Less money to the government via taxes or grants or subsidies means less to spend o social projects.
The health reforms and upgrades are wound back
Low cost housing projects are shelved
Unemployment rises from current 30 percent to what…
People cant afford medicines and start to do without unless it is extremely urgent as the poor do in the usa.

Do I need to go on…can I think of everything…want to jump in and add to the list.

Crvenkovski starts making more noises.
The ethnic Albanians say they don’t want to cop the hardship for our stupid name
Backed by eg usa we have a take two on 2001 to split the country and have western Macedonia go to the Albanians and join the eu.
Some predavnicci who already have Bulgarian passports want to go abroad to live
Ect

Oh and by the way the Macedonians call themselves Macedonia but the rest of the world turns around and say f off back we will call you whatever we f ing feel like it Ok FYROM

I guess you could say we are better off…like I said in my previous post it depends how you define better.

And how many will be on this site saying yeah it great to be a patriot in the diaspora with your pockets full hows about coming to live in Macedonia and show us how much of a patriot you are.

Are we back to square one or do you know of a better scenario.
That’s why I kept asking And Then What

[makedonche]

OM
The game that ROM politicians are playing is extremely dangerous, if you go to bed with a dog you are gauranteed to wake up with fleas! Another analogy is " you can't get a little bit pregnant", i.e. just negotiate until you are safe or get something in return. My belief is no negotiation on our identity, not for EU access or NATO access, not for any reason at all. You appear to suggest that it's the ROM govt. appearing to negotiate just until we get into NATO, then when we have protection, set borders, improved economic out look etc. and can start to argue for our identity to be re-instated after that. This is a fools paradise because once any concession/negotiation/discussion has commenced and been agreed to it becomes a matter of "We know you are a Whore - it's just the amount of money we are arguing about". Living proof of this is this 20 year name dispute which only exists because ROM has participated in it - for whatever reasons/excuses! Had the ROM not agreed, not discussed, not negotiated, not budged on the self determined name, we would be in a much better position, but because we dipped our feet in the water we showed that we could also be whores - not a real enviable position of integrity - we are where we are today. The best solution (not the only one) is to tell them all to fuck off, we are not negotiating, stick the EU up their arse, Nato can piss off as well and keep to ourselves, living and working within our means instead of prostituting our identity to be part of some racist and irreputable clubs. Tell me OM what would happen to Macedonia if we did this? My view - there would be much financial hardship and pain, loss of international political clout, less investment into the country and so on but our identity would be that which we chose and nobody could fuck with it or negotiate it or bribe us to alter it, and that is worth more than any investors/club memberships or whatever else they are using to make ROM bend over!

[fyrOM]

Makedonce

OM
Thanks for the previous detailed reply - it confirms what I suspected.

I hope those thoughts you suspected were good ones.

I don’t think the government really believes we can truly be friends with the Greeks. Some in parliament and some individuals have said we really could in newspaper articles. I don’t think they are true Macedonians. I think its all an act by the government to pursue their agenda and once the name game is won they will keep up appearances as frenemies.


The Truth according to OziMak.
I have alluded to these things in the past but now that the government keeps pushing the IA publicly and I am getting tired of repeating myself in round about ways.


Vangelovski I wouldn’t be childish enough to think its green cheese when everyone knows it yellow cheese and the dark bits are the blue or green veined bacteria like some cheeses on earth.

On a serious note the news paper articles over a long enough time saying that the government is doing this or that are a fact. Even things which look like they don’t have to do with the name issue like modernising the army and police weapons or the passport issues and sending teams into the diaspora to help people get their citizenship status in order while holding people back from travelling without up-to-date documents are also a fact. The question remains WHY is the government doing all these thing.

One can look at factual events as being a completion in themselves and nothing more and sometimes this could be the case and so one needs to be careful not to hastily read too much into things but as the evidence keeps mounting one should also consider can there be some connection between all these events even if they initially don’t look like they are connected.

After looking at the current governments actions I could only conclude the one common theme of the name issue and how to get around it as being the common link to all these past news articles. I’m not saying it is all my bright idea. It is the government doing these things. I don’t have a bat phone to Gruevskis office. All I’ve done is recognise them early on to form my opinion of the current government and hence my many post s in a similar vein since joining the MTO.

The suspicions of the government and my apparent support of them has lead to some suspicions of myself by some members on this forum. As I’ve said numerous times in the past anyone with even a brief understanding of Macedonian history will know Macedonia has had her heroes but also the multitude of traitors which leads every Macedonian to be naturally suspicious of anything or anyone a bit different. Just being Macedonian is not enough to prove your bona fides as a True Macedonian. I understand this internal intuitive suspicion in Macedonians that’s why I have tried to explain things as clearly as possible so as to curb the suspicions of the government or others from going off at a tangent and inadvertently having possible negative reactions. A case in point the disappointment people felt with the passport issues and how it would inconvenience them. Although the inconvenience was true I tried to curb peoples disappointment by getting them to realise the government was doing it for a greater good ie our identity.

The MTO is not an official policy making body but one should Not be tempted to discount the MTO as a bunch of nobodies hiding behind their computer screens each trying to out do the other in showing off their superior intelligence which is nothing more than a figment in their delusions of grandeur.

I think the MTO is gaining in popularity because it has proven itself repeatedly that it does not tolerate racism or sexism and at all times tries to keep a rational view on all matters. By no means does this mean we are all the same with exactly the same views and like just about any organisation is made up of individuals of varying levels of education and stations in life but the rationalism demanded by the MTO is constant as is the belief that everyone has something to contribute. The history of common struggles has taught us that everyone no matter how little they may think they are they have something to contribute and the MTO has not ignored this while dealing with our common struggle namely the survival of our common Macedonian identity.

One criticism of some of the MTO members I think has SOME truth in it ie the its an Australian thing.

I think Australia having started her life so far from the rest of the world created a need by people to be self sufficient industrial inventive but above all a like it or not reliance on our fellow neighbour for help. Remember a round trip to the UK for parts and supplies meant a 6 months wait for those supplies. What were you supposed to do in the mean time. How were you supposed to survive.

Such a society cannot exist let alone prosper as it has if deception and rip-offs were a 50 times a day regular experience. I think this has lead to Australians in general seeing things more black and white or right and wrong and extremely against deceptive individuals. A case in point when I was over on holiday in RoM I met with a lot of people who in conversation spoke of the corruption about the place. Nothing new I hear you say doesn’t every country have corruption. Yes ever country does have corruption albeit some more than others but what struck me strange was how many of these people…most of them… telling stories of corruption did so with an air of dammed bastard towards the corrupt person the story related to but also a gleam in their eye which towards the end of the story turned into a kind of perverse admiration and even envy of the corrupt individual a kind of bamuja kolku itar bese da izmisli taka. The justification being if you had a one time opportunity to have a river of money flow by you would you settle for your low wage or would you dip your hand into that river realising who knows when such an opportunity like that would present itself again.

I’m sure as Australians you have watched the nightly news or read papers detailing massive scams somewhere overseas where thousands or even 10s of thousands have lost their life’s savings and maybe shook your head in disgust. How many times have you though far out I wish Id thought of that or dreamed if only I could have done that. Does this idea somehow instantly feel a bit foreign to you. Your big kids now you know bad thing happen its no surprise to you your not naive but how many of you have relished at such news. This is what I mean about the Australian thing. Other societies are more use or be used umpteen times a day. A different pattern of thinking develops. Its not only acceptable its cool. But sometimes lying cheating deceiving and pretending can be a good thing. Remember me saying this in a different thread. It all depends if the lying cheating and pretending is on your side. As Australians it triggers natural alarm bells in us and as Australians and Macedonians with our traitors those bells ring like church bells and we may have a reflex action. Those…mainly overseas… more accustomed to lying cheating and pretending just let it roll off like water off a ducks back. This difference I think is the root of some of the more lively discussions on the forum. I think it is also why the Aussies on the forum cannot actually believe this is the governments plan let alone believe in the plan. Its cool. Remember me saying there’s a place for everyone to contribute. The dynamics of the environment needs the neigh sayers to counterbalance other things.

[makedonin]

spored rezultatite od anketata, izgleda povekje od 80% od ispitanite bile makedonci.

Делам ги со три, оти са три НЕ групи а у една анкета може и еднакво да се застапени групите иако не мора, и затоа предпостави средна вредност.
Ако са повеќе од 80% Македонци, тогајка мож и ке биде рачуно како шо е горе, а мош и не.

Затоа и беше додадел:

Мож бројо на етничките припадности ми фале, кој знае.

Сето тоа го ставам у питање оти и наште нолгу пати не се нолгу точни.

Мада и скоро 60% од фкупното населеније е поарно од помалку од 50%, и резултато би бил да не се мене името.

Едноставно сакам да бидам сигурен за бројките, а не да се мава со некој бројки, шо мож а можби и не се точни, а имам и други бројки видено и вариират од време на време.

[Rogi]

Zosto gi delis so 3? Ne bile 33.333% Makedonci, 33.333% Albanci i 33.333% drugi za da gi delis ednakvo na 3.

Spored rezultatite od anketata, izgleda povekje od 80% od ispitanite bile Makedonci.

[makedonin]

Не 72,7% != (73,6% + 50 % + 55 %)/3

Тоа е охрабрувачки, ама како дојдеа до 72,7% не ми е јасно. Јас добивам како средна вредност од тие три табели само 59,5%. Мож бројо на етничките припадности ми фале, кој знае.

[Bratot]

На барање на институтот Димитрија Чуповски, Институтот за политички истражувања спроведе анкета на јавното мислење во врска со повеќе актуелни политички прашања врз репрезентативен примерок од 1110 испитаници.

Резултатите од анкетата се :


1. Ако следната недела се одржи референдум за влез во НАТО како би гласале?

 За 81,4%
 Против 11,3%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 7,4%

Според етничката припадност:

Македонци:
 За 77,6%
 Против 13,4%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 9 %

Албанци:
 За 92,6%
 Против 5,2%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 2,2%

Други:
 За 81,6%
 Против 7,9 %
 Не знам/ немам одговор 10,5%




2. Ако следната недела се одржи референдум за влез во ЕУ како би гласале?

 За 81,5%
 Против 11,9%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 6,6%

Според етничката припадност:

Македонци:
 За 77,7%
 Против 14,3%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 8 %

Албанци:
 За 92,9% Против 5,2%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 1,9%

Други:
 За 81,6%
 Против 7,9%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 10,5%


3. Доколку сите парламентарни партии вклучувајќи ги СДСМ и ВМРО-ДПМНЕ поддржат одреден предлог за промена на името со цел земјава да стане членка на НАТО и ЕУ, дали вие таквиот предлог би го поддржале на референдум?

 Да 14,5%
 Не 72,7%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 12,8%

Според етничката припадност:

Македонци:
 Да 14,4%
 Не 73,6%
 Не знам/ немам одговор 12 %

Албанци:
 Да 25 %
 Не 50 %
 Не знам/ немам одговор 25 %

Други:
 Да 15 %
 Не 55 %
 Не знам/ немам одговор 30 %

http://alsat.mk/vesti/zemja/1397466.html

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

You've got so many false assumptions in your argument, I'm suprised you didn't conclude that the moon is made of green cheese.

[makedonche]

Here’s another article to this…how will it work out…makes for interesting times.

Greece to respect the agreed

http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/makedonija/632287/index.html

Skopje, October 12, 2010 (Reuters) - Partner relationship that we want to build with Greece should be based on a degree of confidence. Anyone who wants us to build good neighborly relations should be consistent with what was agreed, said today Deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs Vasko Naumovski.

- We have an example of our relations with Greece, the Interim Agreement of 1995, and in our opinion, her brutal violation by Greece. Hopefully in the future trust between the two sides will be built with concrete steps that we will establish a degree of confidence that will allow us to build good neighborly relations and to be sure what the future will not agree to be re- breached by them, Naumovski said, answering a reporter's question on the current implementation of standards for quality management in the operation and ISO 9001:2008 standards for environmental protection ISO 14001:2004 ..

Our experience, said Deputy Prime Minister show that to be sure that what you agree to be conducted, should be confirmed with concrete steps by all parties involved in that agreement.

- We believe that Greece should show its good will in fulfillment of international legal documents, said Naumovski.

OM
Thanks for the previous detailed reply - it confirms what I suspected.
As for the above quote, aren't we being a little naieve here - "good relations with Greece" "concrete steps" - how many more times do we need to get slapped in the face by these pricks before the realisation sets in that there will never be either good relations or any sort of trust with Greece, the very best we can ever hope for is a mutual mistrust and not have anything to do with them! "Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts" - I'm sure you know the meaning behind this - not only can't they be trusted but the gift they offer is probably stolen anyway!

[fyrOM]

Here’s another article to this…how will it work out…makes for interesting times.

Greece to respect the agreed

http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/makedonija/632287/index.html

Skopje, October 12, 2010 (Reuters) - Partner relationship that we want to build with Greece should be based on a degree of confidence. Anyone who wants us to build good neighborly relations should be consistent with what was agreed, said today Deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs Vasko Naumovski.

- We have an example of our relations with Greece, the Interim Agreement of 1995, and in our opinion, her brutal violation by Greece. Hopefully in the future trust between the two sides will be built with concrete steps that we will establish a degree of confidence that will allow us to build good neighborly relations and to be sure what the future will not agree to be re- breached by them, Naumovski said, answering a reporter's question on the current implementation of standards for quality management in the operation and ISO 9001:2008 standards for environmental protection ISO 14001:2004 ..

Our experience, said Deputy Prime Minister show that to be sure that what you agree to be conducted, should be confirmed with concrete steps by all parties involved in that agreement.

- We believe that Greece should show its good will in fulfillment of international legal documents, said Naumovski.

[fyrOM]

Makedonce I am not for a name change and I don’t believe the current government is either. The IA and everything with it were inherited. Regardless if we don’t like it this is the current situation today and what remains is where to go from here. Other discussions of what Macedonia should have done and where she should be are important in themselves but not as important as realising Macedonia’s current position and what to do next.

Some time ago in a different thread I posed the question What next to which no real reply was give other than the usual rhetoric of vassal government and vassal statements from some in the diaspora but it was a real question albeit playing the side of the devils advocate. Many have said end the name talks. Then what. Is the ending of the name talks and consequently declaring the IA null and void leaving RoM in a better position and for how long. I guess it depends on how you define better.

In terms of for now ending any possibility of a name change one could think it is better ie no talks means nothing to change means no accidental change of name ad identity. What about the day after. What if this outward declaration of up yours triggers actions from other powers to move. I have tried to explain this point with other words in other threads and it has been meat with a mute response either out of I don’t like it or I don’t understand it. I don’t know which. Some have said stuff them all the eu nato the usa we ll just go it alone . For lack of being able to think of a better way to explain it I will say something which I know will sound too simple so don’t read too much into it. If someone with his buddies grabs you in the street and is threatening you to do something saying No triggers them to take action immediately say eg to beat you up but while you are saying yeah ok I’m working on it but it takes time the threat doesn’t disappear only time is bought to reposition yourself in a more favourable position to be able to better fend off the inevitable threat.

I think I know what the government is doing. Is it the best course of action given the dangers that are associated with their course of action is very questionable to say the least but at the same time I find asking myself is there any other viable alterative.

Some at the MTO have suggested abandoning the name talks and to going to the UN gather enough votes and win our recognition that way. This is in fact sort of what the government is trying to do. If you look at the number of countries that have recognised RoM and when they did you will realise we did not have the numbers in the past so how successful would this course of action have been at any previous time. But by not saying yes to a name change AND not abandoning the talks any decision gets to be deferred. In the mean time both the President and Prime Minister have been flying around the world speaking with as many countries as they can.

This deferring tactic is not something that can go on forever. One might say hasn’t it gone on for near 20 years so why cant it go on for another 20 years or more. Because it has a natural end which is not very far at all and I would expect things to heat up progressively as time goes by. In the past Macedonia could have decided to change her name but was not technically in a position to enter the eu even if she wanted to and likewise nor would she be wanted by the eu in her then state so no need for extreme pressure. Yet as the reforms have progressed both in terms of economics and legal environment Macedonia has become a suitable fit for the eu. The closer we get to this fit the greater the demands will be to come to a decision about the name. If you look at more recent news articles that praise Macedonia for the exemplarily way the reforms have been performed the more one should get concerned as it indicates the closer Macedonia is to the end date.

The most disappointing thig is having rightly or wrongly embarked on this deferring tactic previous governments have pissed up the time and resources available to them for their own personal gain to the tune of billions. Traitors. Crvekovskis is a prime example but one could also cite the Skopje airport debacle of the past to turn it into an international hub.

Macedonia does not have enough internal capital to modernise and expand herself. Maybe if left alone in due course she could make it but not in a rapid time. This is the first reason the government has actively been chasing foreign investment. The second is the you loose too principle. If large foreign companies invest heavily in Macedonia and their respective governments are not taking action to aid Macedonia then Macedonia fails and so do their heavy investments. Not to loose big these companies will do whatever they can in the background to put pressure o their own governments. Even TAVs and Turkish airlines is a take two on 10 years ago.

The government has
Rushed reforms and reduced taxes to make Macedonia an appealing environment for foreign investment
Made extensive trips abroad to encourage relationships with as many governments as they can
Strategically getting the pipeline to go through Macedonia
Reformed the rural sector which much of Macedonia is involved with to alleviate the pressure of the lower masses
Taken steps to rout out the traitors in high places ie lustration process
Significantly upgrade the schools ie university enrolments from low 60s to in the high 90s and medical sector ie new expensive machines and anti corruption actions against medical workers
Not only making people internally get their papers in order but both encouraging ie sending teams abroad and forcing ie people not being able to leave without getting their papers in order the diaspora where a ready anti name change base exists
Invested in archeologically digs
Upgraded the military and police hardware not just for the outward image for nato but a rapid action against a 2001 take two

All the above have not only been for the obvious economic gain but more importantly strategic moves to fend of any forced attack on the name. Think about the news reports saying may people feel worse off since the government took office yet the governments popularity keeps increasing. Crvenkovski cant understand it. Traitors have a natural hard time understanding patriotism when it costs you.

Going to the IJC to uphold the IA is the governments risky attempt to get in the eu and nato without having give up the name i.e. the old defer trick. In part its to diffuse internal pressure. The opposition has no carrot to dangle ie Macedonia is already where at least the public thinks they want to be so what have you got to offer bupkis and you Albanian ethnics were whinging about what again.

I think the government thinks the French resistance may have some philosophical reason but by and large its really financial and getting Macedonia’s buddy China to get them off the hook the French may sing a different tune. But also they think that by being on the other side of the fence with most of the eu members and 4 fifths of the security council on their side it will be easier to convince the stragglers to cross over leaving Greece and Cypress I the corner. Once there the government can work on the eu to follow through with their earlier threats to change the rules about unanimous votes. In the mean time keep getting the numbers for a un count eg any wonder why Fiji recognised us while probably not having a frig about Alexanders mob. Bing bang Macedonia is in as Macedonia in the eu and nato and checking out the vote count in the un.

Risky. Dammed right it is. You might recall in a different thread I said it looks too risky and I don’t like it. But then again when in Macedonia’s history has it not been risky.

In any event there needs to be a plan B to run and that’s why Crvenkovski and Co should never see power. Any wonder why he is calling for a riot instead of a peaceful protest. There’s more money for him and his lackeys to plunder.

The anti name negotiations campaign is important to keep showing the world that the vast majority of Macedonians do not want a name change. Obviously the small percentage of Macedonian citizens in polls who do are not ethic Macedonians. It makes it difficult for any power to manipulate any forced referendum that overnight all the Macedonians change their mind and still sound believable. It is a force to keep any force referendum at bay.

Rightly or wrongly this is where past governments have left the government to battle the current conditions.

[DedoAleko]

Today:

Грција вознемирена од предлогот – преговори, влез во ЕУ, па име
12.10.2010 - 13:04 |

* Македонија

Грчката Влада ја вознемири предлогот на Милошоски - преговори со Европската Унија под референцата БЈРМ, паралелни преговoри за името со Грција и прифаќање на заеднички договореното име дури по влезот во Унијата.

Преку “Катимерини”, владините извори од Атина го повикуват Скопје да престане со маневрите и да се фокусира на раговорите во Обединетите Нации.

Ставот на Грција е непроменет, решение за името морало да се изнајде пред почетокот на пристапните преговори.

Наспрема грчкиот став и порака, Македонија одговори со сопствено барање. Доследност во договореното повторно побара вицепремиерот Наумовски. Грција да покажела добра волја во почитувањето на меѓународните договори

- Партнерскиот однос што сакаме да го градиме со Република Грција треба да базира на голем степен на доверба. Имаме пример од нашите меѓусебни односи со Република Грција, со привремената Спогодба од 1995 година, и според нашето мислење, нејзиното брутално кршење од страна на Грција. Да градиме добрососедски односи и да бидеме сигурни дека се она што во иднина ќе се договориме нема повторно да биде прекршено од нивна страна - изјави вицепремиерот Васко Наумовски.

Почитување на Времената спогодба од 95-та од Грција и влез на Макеоднија во ЕУ и НАТО под референцата БЈРМ повторно побара и поранешниот медијатор за името Мартин О‘Нил.

izvor: http://sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/makedoni...z-vo-eu-pa-ime

[Pelister]

This is true and has been discussed in detail over the past two years. In the ICJ case, Macedonia is asking the court to ENFORCE the Interim Accord. The fact that Macedonia went to an international court to enforce its “rights” under this Accord only demonstrates that they accept it as a valid and legitimate agreement. I think the damage that this has caused goes way over the heads of the so-called “experts” that advise our vassal politicians and their lapdogs in Macedonia and the diaspora.

This idea that Macedonia has some sort of "grand strategy" (as proposed by OziMak and Buktop) is ludicrous. And if this is their "grand strategy", the Macedonian Government has miscalculated on such a huge scale, it could well be the most idiotic political stratagem in history.

You are right Tom, and some of us are deeply concerned about the direction the Macedonian government have been taking in all of this.

Those idiots went to the ICJ in defence of admission to these organisation under the acronym FYROM.

What a moronic, miscaculated thing to do. Neither the Macedonians in the Republic, nor that group of 'diaspora' lunatics in Washington actual realise how much damaging they are doing to us.