Macedonia and NATO

[makedonche]

I am not part of the government so I am not privy to any of their internal discussions and strategies. What I have done is looked at their own public statements on a number of differing issues and tried to connect the dots of what the governments strategy is. Whether this strategy is right or wrong it is their strategy.

What I then did was to try and explain how I came to this conclusion and try to differentiate it from the more common assumption espoused on this forum. As I doubt any of you bar Prolet have any connection to the government I have assumed your views are likewise based on your take on the public statements of the government. As it is a forum of discussion I have tried to reflect the two views and encourage logical debate to nut out if either or both of us have missed any points or subtle nuances which may shine new light. Many people seem very entrenched in their views and cannot go past certain points which they hold to be true to be able to even examine What If scenarios even if they are right with the What Next question. That’s their prerogative but I feel it is an opportunity missed.

Further to this I stated that as I understand the governments strategy it looks like a risky proposition but at the same time if they have a plan B to pull the pin and run as they should have then this plan B is what most people on the forum are already saying ie quit everything and withdraw. I then asked if this is the case then why not let the government keep playing the game and scoring benefits which the country surely needs until such time as total impasse has been reached and it is time to retreat. Why do it too soon ie pull out of the game and not only miss out on benefit but more importantly see if your plan wins.

I have tried to explain the importance of such a win as to how it goes towards our identity not only in RoM but also the Macedonians in the occupied territories. That is the point isn’t it. I have also tried to explain how without such a win the fate of the identity of the Macedonians in the occupied territories will be pushed back severely. I have also tried to bring attention to the point that pulling out of the game now as suggested means not loosing but more importantly not winning and it is this not winning that affects our identity.

i haven't questioned what you explained or your opinion, you are entitled to it, just as I am entitled to respond to it!

Shutting down things now does have its own losses to follow but most on this forum seem to see the shutdown as the victory. Fine shut it down if you can then celebrate get drunk and dance. Ill wait for the morning after or days after or weeks after to read your bitching and moaning about how unfair the world is like it was ever supposed to be. Maybe your reflections on how fairly the Macedonians have been treated throughout history hasn’t told you anything about fairness.

OM
Nobody is talking about shutting anything down - the talk is "stop the negotiations". It's time to make a stand on our own feet without reliance from elsewhere, if we keep relying on somebody to back us up before we make a stand then the pattern of progress will have been commenced - what then, we wait till we get backing before we take the next step? "my reflections about how fairly the Macedonians have been treated?" please point me to the section where I made these reflections? Fairness? hmmm let me see who's been fair to the Macedonians - easy, nobody!(in terms of our basic human rights)

[fyrOM]

Oh yeah…
PS With a comment like the don’t be disappointed ect

Us Serbs would like to say

Google Translate
From: To:
Macedonian Serbian
▼ ▼
da te pluknam да те плукнам
Translate text or webpage
Type text or a website address or translate a document.

tell me if you need it in greek...i hear from some they are supposed to be the TRUE Macedonians.

[fyrOM]

do you think you are a macedonian patriot - in terms of the macedonian cause?

Most oaths of allegiance have some line similar to
Promising to protect the republic from both internal and external foes.

Alerting others to missed info or a misjudgement in a timely manor is acting positively.

True Independence is not having to rely on anybody else!

Hahaha. Everybody relies on other people. Look around you. If we have to start this far back no wonder you cant understand it.

The moment you start relying on others for assistance is the moment you start granting concessions, making allowances, negotiating, compromising

And you never negotiate compromise or make allowances for to anyone do you.hahaha

Countries are just the same…they negotiate compromise and make allowances for.
Quitting the name talks sounds like its the victory in itself to a lot of people on this forum but it is not the end of the bigger game.

Its starting to make a bit more sense to me now Lennie.

This is simple, it's staring you in the face and you don't see it! The products are labelled according to the country of origin - ROM - if that doesn't suit - don't buy the product!

Great for those Greeks living close to the border. What if your products don’t get to enter Europe or UK usa ect. Oh and by the way what if the eu becomes Serb an Albania as well as the Bulgarians and Greece.


our arses maybe? is that plan B?

Well…Greeks do have Greek style.
But NO. Plan B is cut and run and trade with the east.

Don't be disappointed, the Egejski Macedonians are the real Macedonians!

And the TRUTH comes out.
PS…Just so you know shutting everything down now or in the past is the fastest way to pissing the rights of the Macedonians in the occupied territories.

Many Macedonians were forced to move for a better life/opportunities/survival - let me ask you this how many have remained loyal to the Macedonian identity?

Never taken a head count…don’t know.

We here at the MTO hold truth to be valuable - proving anything to the MTO about genetics is nice, being aligned with the Macedonian Cause is the only proof we need!

Is this anything like feeling Greek makes you Greek.
After reading the previous stuff I got to laughing so much I couldn’t help myself with the last statement.
Ill plead a laughing fit.

[fyrOM]

I am not part of the government so I am not privy to any of their internal discussions and strategies. What I have done is looked at their own public statements on a number of differing issues and tried to connect the dots of what the governments strategy is. Whether this strategy is right or wrong it is their strategy.

What I then did was to try and explain how I came to this conclusion and try to differentiate it from the more common assumption espoused on this forum. As I doubt any of you bar Prolet have any connection to the government I have assumed your views are likewise based on your take on the public statements of the government. As it is a forum of discussion I have tried to reflect the two views and encourage logical debate to nut out if either or both of us have missed any points or subtle nuances which may shine new light. Many people seem very entrenched in their views and cannot go past certain points which they hold to be true to be able to even examine What If scenarios even if they are right with the What Next question. That’s their prerogative but I feel it is an opportunity missed.

Further to this I stated that as I understand the governments strategy it looks like a risky proposition but at the same time if they have a plan B to pull the pin and run as they should have then this plan B is what most people on the forum are already saying ie quit everything and withdraw. I then asked if this is the case then why not let the government keep playing the game and scoring benefits which the country surely needs until such time as total impasse has been reached and it is time to retreat. Why do it too soon ie pull out of the game and not only miss out on benefit but more importantly see if your plan wins.

I have tried to explain the importance of such a win as to how it goes towards our identity not only in RoM but also the Macedonians in the occupied territories. That is the point isn’t it. I have also tried to explain how without such a win the fate of the identity of the Macedonians in the occupied territories will be pushed back severely. I have also tried to bring attention to the point that pulling out of the game now as suggested means not loosing but more importantly not winning and it is this not winning that affects our identity.

Shutting down things now does have its own losses to follow but most on this forum seem to see the shutdown as the victory. Fine shut it down if you can then celebrate get drunk and dance. Ill wait for the morning after or days after or weeks after to read your bitching and moaning about how unfair the world is like it was ever supposed to be. Maybe your reflections on how fairly the Macedonians have been treated throughout history hasn’t told you anything about fairness.

[fyrOM]

Julies pissing contest statements.

Julie…This is from someone that has not lost relatives in battle for the name MACEDONIA.
You don’t have a lineage of ancestors that died for Macedonia.Post038.

Frank…Calm down OziMak you are not making any real sensePost043

Frank stop being provocative for its own sake or if you are a moron go learn some English maybe then it will make sense to you.

[makedonche]

Makedonce ... we become self sufficient, self reliant, debt free, truly independent, self governing and most of all Republic of Macedonia!

And how does this happen…because you just willed it so…or a fairy waved her magic wand…what are the nuts and bolts mechanics of this miracle. That’s the real question in And Then What.
OM
True Independence is not having to rely on anybody else! The moment you start relying on others for assistance is the moment you start granting concessions, making allowances, negotiating, compromising and entering into name disputes for 20 years!
You don't need a magic wand - it's called hard work - the nuts and bolts are the people and resources of the country, the mechanics of the miracle is "The Macedonian Cause"

LoM…these institutions will crumble in a matter of years the way there going, so fuck the Greeks and these pro american organisations! smrt ili sloboda!

The very creation of the eu was bad news. I have never cheered for them.

So why join this club of racists and worse still why pay the price of lost identity to join?

In a different thread I said a lot of east west European history reminds me of the west vs. east roman empires and that we really haven’t move all that far beyond that. The reality is RoM is tiny. This notion of being self sufficient is absolute rubbish and delusional.
I strongly disagree with this statement - it is not important to be big and strong it is more important to be independent, however small - the growth will come in time

Without going to umpteen examples to illustrate the point firstly we don’t have our own fuel supply so to get this basic essential commodity means we have to trade. No self sufficiency. Pull your head out of the sand.

Macedonia will just trade her way out. This is wishful simple thinking…Lennie… akin to …we ll live off the fat of the land…Of Mice and Men John Steinbeck. A somehow it will all be right miracle without a clear definition. The need to trade leads directly to the question of who to trade with and who will trade with you. Many on this forum have the delusion that trading is somehow a God given right. News Flash…Its NOT. Get that through your head FIRST then test your theories.
Trading is the process of commerce - create a product that is in demand, market it, sell it or trade it - Macedonians need to create a saleable in demand product(s)-there are unlimited ideas/products that have not been developed, why not Macedonia beginning to create/produce these and trade?

Say Serbia moves along and gets in the eu as does Albania too. Smart Macedonia on smart advice by some smart people is defiantly standing her ground being self sufficient…yeah right…and the eu says we do not recognise RoM and unless all products are labelled product of FYROM they cannot be sold anywhere in the eu or usa Canada Australia ect. Do you stand your ground and keep calling yourself Macedonia…do you FYROM yourself ie your principles counted for five seconds only…or do you f yourself. There’s the first test to pull your head in…what do YOU do.
This is simple, it's staring you in the face and you don't see it! The products are labelled according to the country of origin - ROM - if that doesn't suit - don't buy the product! I bet that the Greeks crossing the border for cheaper groceries/food/petrol wouldn't give a shit if the products were labelled "Product of The Republic of Macedonia" with the Kutlesh sonce on them!

You defiantly keep calling yourself Macedonia despite the rest of the world choosing to call you whatever the f they want. How do you think this isolation helps the identity and rights of those Macedonians in the occupied territories or doesn’t that matter anymore. I keep telling you the problem has many angles balancing a multitude of issues each affecting the other.
Defiantly? WTF? there is nothing defiant about calling yourself your chosen identity! There is something seriously wrong with other parties insisting on calling you something else! Don't you get this?

Macedonian saying Predtebe planina…na gore e visoko…na okulu shiroko.
before you a mountain…upwards is high ie difficult …around is wide ie difficult.

Take note in a different thread I said Macedonia MUST have a plan B even if it only gets used as a bargaining chip but definitely be ready to follow through and use it if circumstances demand.
Bargaining chip- plan B ? So now that we are negotiating the identity already for promise of EU/NATO entry you are suggesting we come up with a plan B in case the existing bargaining doesn't work - tell me what is it you propose we bartgain with next - our arses maybe? is that plan B?

Julie…This is from someone that has not lost relatives in battle for the name MACEDONIA.
You don’t have a lineage of ancestors that died for Macedonia.

I am very disappointed with you because of this statement. It is at the core of what some…Not All… egej Macedonians feel even if they don’t say it…somehow they are the real Macedonians or more Macedonian than those of RoM.
Don't be disappointed, the Egejski Macedonians are the real Macedonians! But we haven't forgotten any others and we haven't signed our right to stand up for them, away - unlike some past and existing politicians in ROM - the Egejci still bleed for all Macedonians!
Your statement brought me back to primary school where the only two other Macedonians from RoM were bullies and just wanted to smack me around until they realised I don’t give up easy and nearly smashed one of their heads into a wall and near knocked him out as we were fighting 2 against one. There were a few egej Macedonians who gave me a wonderful welcoming…hey OziMak we heard you were Macedonian. Where are you from. I replied x. oh…and they went away to play with themselves forever more. Not quite what I expected. I guess from the above you can guess I didn’t grow up in Thomastown or St Albans hence the Ozi in OziMak.hahaha

But just to take your point to task. It is factually wrong. Think Iligden uprising and the first Macedonian republic Krusevo RoM. First armed resistance against the Nazis and Bulgarians Prilep RoM. Macedonian officers lined up and executed by Titos partizans for wanting to take there troops south to help the egej Macedonians instead of going to the useless waste battle of Sren in Serbia executed in RoM. Or maybe we were good South Serbs or Bulgarians…I don’t know maybe you can as Chento born Prilep RoM. Enough of the pissing contests. Good Macedonians from all over Macedonia have given their lives for a free Macedonia and saying anything else disrespect there memory. On the flip side we also have had out traitors from all over Macedonia for whom you should be directing your piss at Crvenkovski and Co being the latest reincarnation.

Julie...Someone that will gladly sell their name to get in good with yankee doody dandy.

Gruevskis family are from egej Macedonia Deca Begalci. Using your logic what the hell is he doing. In the short time of his office Macedonia has advanced more rapidly than any of his predecessors. Everything he has done has been for the betterment of RoM and he has refused to give up the Macedonian identity…well maybe there might have been a few things that fell into his pocket who knows no scandals have shown up but I don’t blindly think he is some kind of saint.

It’s a game plan Julie et al. Like I said I don’t have a Bat phone to his office. I’m just looking at facts and finding the connections between them as I have posted previously. Also as I have said it looks dammed risky but what in Macedonia’s history has not been risky…the brief period between late sixties and early eighties you could call yourself a so called good Macedonia so long as you also said good Yugoslav. My dad was propositioned to become a Yugo spy because he was quick witted and a model soldier…his one real fuck up thinking he will just play along and get back to his life. He refused and despite being excellent at his trade could not get a job anywhere which he thinks was because he was black listed. One good out of his predicament it forced him to go to Australia.
Many Macedonians were forced to move for a better life/opportunities/survival - let me ask you this how many have remained loyal to the Macedonian identity? The answer to this will give you great insight into the divisiveness of Macedonians which has been instilled and indoctrinated into many generations - fortuneately it won't take as long to get rid of it - hard work and a common purpose will help this.

I have never said anything which could be in support of Crvenkovski who is a true anti Macedonian traitor.

From best as I can see at this distance I am no more of a traitor than Gruevski who is awfully chummy with the host of the Milenko Show who has publicly cursed the death of any polititian and his family who gives up the name and identity Macedonia. What gives.
Okay so your'e not a traitor, but you are happy to allow name negotiations to continue for some percieved benefits, a bit of irony for you.

Julie…thed borders are open, there are no visas,

This is only the case because RoM is supposed to be on the road to the eu. It is not set in stone and can easily be revoked at any time.

Julie…SHUT UP OM you profess such incredible foresight and intelligence, you are either A/GREEK
B/ PAID RoM member of traiterous parliament

I can actually see the logic in your statement…you profess such incredible foresight and intelligence…as apposed to actually having any hence I must be …A/GREEK
B/ PAID RoM member of traiterous parliament…hahaha good one seriously.

But wrong on both points. Looking in the mirror I look nothing like a Greek and have been mistaken for Croatian or Polish or German or Russian or Turkish. I am genially disappointed I have not been assumed to be Macedonian by non Macedonians. I know I am Macedonian. I don’t need the iGenea test to tell me I am Macedonian. Like Kure I did it out of curiosity but also a curiosity in my family history as I have heard some members of the wider family left for the usa and elsewhere in the 19th century. I’m curious if any long lost relations crop up in the database. As I have previously stated I see no problem with posting it in the iGenea thread when the results arrive not because I want to prove anything to the MTO…I don’t feel I need to prove anything…but because I think it would be genuinely interesting information.
We here at the MTO hold truth to be valuable - proving anything to the MTO about genetics is nice, being aligned with the Macedonian Cause is the only proof we need!

Paid RoM member.hahaha Prolet seems to know a lot of details and too quickly to be a casual observer and as some posts have alluded he has some contacts in government offices. You might recall my posting in Macedonian in other threads albeit using Roman characters. It should have given you an idea about my proficiency or lack there of in Macedonia. Would a Macedonian from RoM be so poor in using Macedonian. The clues are all over the MTO as they are for all of you. Rather than just note what someone says within the context of the thread only remember a bit here a bit there and you can start to piece a picture together of any of us. I’m too Aussie to be a RoM spy. I’m sure you will tier of using the label soon or later.

I don't think you are a ROM spy, do you think you are a macedonian patriot - in terms of the macedonian cause?

[Frank]

Calm down OziMak you are not making any real sense

[Frank]

The argument that Macedonia needs the EU to be an attractive trading partner and attractive to foreign investment is both stupid and exactly what the myth Sayers want you to beleive

[fyrOM]

Julie Did you read the whole thing…or do you skim read for key words and go off half cocked.

I am truly amazed at the lack of comprehension displayed on this forum from time to time and I am NOT referring just to replies to my post but definitely others.

If two kids set upon one of your sons and wanted to bash him because they were bullies does it make any difference if they were Macedonians from RoM egej or anywhere for that mater or more importantly does it matter if the were Macedonian at all or not. Would you tell your son NOT to defend himself to the nth degree if his attackers were Macedonian. If so then you are truly insane. I don’t care who it is if they are trying to bash my head in Ill knock their head off without a blink.

STOP with the divisiveness , Egey, Vardar, bla bla bla bla,

Don’t cal me divisive. It was you who introduced your vial pissing competition comments you mochka. I was saying enough of such stupid statements. Macedonians from egej are no better than Macedonians from any other part of Macedonia and your comments are factually wrong to say only egej Macedonians have shed blood for Macedonia. Wake up.

My comment
Do you stand your ground and keep calling yourself Macedonia…do you FYROM yourself ie your principles counted for five seconds only…or do you f yourself. There’s the first test to pull your head in…what do YOU do.

Was a question about the acronym FYROM. If you can stop behaving like a rabid dog for long enough you will realise it is ok to talk about something instead of freaking out at the first sight of a word. How else are you supposed to talk about x without mentioning x.

I would never want to have you by my side in a war because you never know when to strpi yourself long enough and you would give away our position.

[julie]

Smashing heads against brick walls..... it doesn't surprise me OM
STOP with the divisiveness , Egey, Vardar, bla bla bla bla,

Yes, be disappointed in the "Egej" in me , am proud , of my blood, who did not smash other Macedonian heads in, but fought for the liberation and sovereignty of Macedonia, about the time the people in RoM (and you can keep your fucked up logic to yourself ) INCLUDING my FATHER's family had their heads forced up Tito's arse.

Macedonia does not need to be part of the EU to trade, nor does Macedonia need the EU for foreign investment.

You can force that revolting acronym up your own arse and leave it there and acquiesce to the Greeks and yanks and enjoy selling yourself, dont force it on others on this forum, you are INSULTING and continue to use that acronym
I am tired of you using that acronym , with such enjoyment, others have been BANNED on this forum, yet you blatantly use it with joy and gusto

You are one person I would not ever fight side by side for my people, you are the kind that would be a turncoat, your own story as a child smashing Macedonian heads in shows it.

[fyrOM]

Makedonce ... we become self sufficient, self reliant, debt free, truly independent, self governing and most of all Republic of Macedonia!

And how does this happen…because you just willed it so…or a fairy waved her magic wand…what are the nuts and bolts mechanics of this miracle. That’s the real question in And Then What.

LoM…these institutions will crumble in a matter of years the way there going, so fuck the Greeks and these pro american organisations! smrt ili sloboda!

The very creation of the eu was bad news. I have never cheered for them. In a different thread I said a lot of east west European history reminds me of the west vs. east roman empires and that we really haven’t move all that far beyond that. The reality is RoM is tiny. This notion of being self sufficient is absolute rubbish and delusional. Without going to umpteen examples to illustrate the point firstly we don’t have our own fuel supply so to get this basic essential commodity means we have to trade. No self sufficiency. Pull your head out of the sand.

Macedonia will just trade her way out. This is wishful simple thinking…Lennie… akin to …we ll live off the fat of the land…Of Mice and Men John Steinbeck. A somehow it will all be right miracle without a clear definition. The need to trade leads directly to the question of who to trade with and who will trade with you. Many on this forum have the delusion that trading is somehow a God given right. News Flash…Its NOT. Get that through your head FIRST then test your theories.

Say Serbia moves along and gets in the eu as does Albania too. Smart Macedonia on smart advice by some smart people is defiantly standing her ground being self sufficient…yeah right…and the eu says we do not recognise RoM and unless all products are labelled product of FYROM they cannot be sold anywhere in the eu or usa Canada Australia ect. Do you stand your ground and keep calling yourself Macedonia…do you FYROM yourself ie your principles counted for five seconds only…or do you f yourself. There’s the first test to pull your head in…what do YOU do.

You defiantly keep calling yourself Macedonia despite the rest of the world choosing to call you whatever the f they want. How do you think this isolation helps the identity and rights of those Macedonians in the occupied territories or doesn’t that matter anymore. I keep telling you the problem has many angles balancing a multitude of issues each affecting the other.

Macedonian saying Predtebe planina…na gore e visoko…na okulu shiroko.
before you a mountain…upwards is high ie difficult …around is wide ie difficult.

Take note in a different thread I said Macedonia MUST have a plan B even if it only gets used as a bargaining chip but definitely be ready to follow through and use it if circumstances demand.

Julie…This is from someone that has not lost relatives in battle for the name MACEDONIA.
You don’t have a lineage of ancestors that died for Macedonia.

I am very disappointed with you because of this statement. It is at the core of what some…Not All… egej Macedonians feel even if they don’t say it…somehow they are the real Macedonians or more Macedonian than those of RoM. Your statement brought me back to primary school where the only two other Macedonians from RoM were bullies and just wanted to smack me around until they realised I don’t give up easy and nearly smashed one of their heads into a wall and near knocked him out as we were fighting 2 against one. There were a few egej Macedonians who gave me a wonderful welcoming…hey OziMak we heard you were Macedonian. Where are you from. I replied x. oh…and they went away to play with themselves forever more. Not quite what I expected. I guess from the above you can guess I didn’t grow up in Thomastown or St Albans hence the Ozi in OziMak.hahaha

But just to take your point to task. It is factually wrong. Think Iligden uprising and the first Macedonian republic Krusevo RoM. First armed resistance against the Nazis and Bulgarians Prilep RoM. Macedonian officers lined up and executed by Titos partizans for wanting to take there troops south to help the egej Macedonians instead of going to the useless waste battle of Sren in Serbia executed in RoM. Or maybe we were good South Serbs or Bulgarians…I don’t know maybe you can as Chento born Prilep RoM. Enough of the pissing contests. Good Macedonians from all over Macedonia have given their lives for a free Macedonia and saying anything else disrespect there memory. On the flip side we also have had out traitors from all over Macedonia for whom you should be directing your piss at Crvenkovski and Co being the latest reincarnation.

Julie...Someone that will gladly sell their name to get in good with yankee doody dandy.

Gruevskis family are from egej Macedonia Deca Begalci. Using your logic what the hell is he doing. In the short time of his office Macedonia has advanced more rapidly than any of his predecessors. Everything he has done has been for the betterment of RoM and he has refused to give up the Macedonian identity…well maybe there might have been a few things that fell into his pocket who knows no scandals have shown up but I don’t blindly think he is some kind of saint.

It’s a game plan Julie et al. Like I said I don’t have a Bat phone to his office. I’m just looking at facts and finding the connections between them as I have posted previously. Also as I have said it looks dammed risky but what in Macedonia’s history has not been risky…the brief period between late sixties and early eighties you could call yourself a so called good Macedonia so long as you also said good Yugoslav. My dad was propositioned to become a Yugo spy because he was quick witted and a model soldier…his one real fuck up thinking he will just play along and get back to his life. He refused and despite being excellent at his trade could not get a job anywhere which he thinks was because he was black listed. One good out of his predicament it forced him to go to Australia.

I have never said anything which could be in support of Crvenkovski who is a true anti Macedonian traitor.

From best as I can see at this distance I am no more of a traitor than Gruevski who is awfully chummy with the host of the Milenko Show who has publicly cursed the death of any polititian and his family who gives up the name and identity Macedonia. What gives.

Julie…thed borders are open, there are no visas,

This is only the case because RoM is supposed to be on the road to the eu. It is not set in stone and can easily be revoked at any time.

Julie…SHUT UP OM you profess such incredible foresight and intelligence, you are either A/GREEK
B/ PAID RoM member of traiterous parliament

I can actually see the logic in your statement…you profess such incredible foresight and intelligence…as apposed to actually having any hence I must be …A/GREEK
B/ PAID RoM member of traiterous parliament…hahaha good one seriously.

But wrong on both points. Looking in the mirror I look nothing like a Greek and have been mistaken for Croatian or Polish or German or Russian or Turkish. I am genially disappointed I have not been assumed to be Macedonian by non Macedonians. I know I am Macedonian. I don’t need the iGenea test to tell me I am Macedonian. Like Kure I did it out of curiosity but also a curiosity in my family history as I have heard some members of the wider family left for the usa and elsewhere in the 19th century. I’m curious if any long lost relations crop up in the database. As I have previously stated I see no problem with posting it in the iGenea thread when the results arrive not because I want to prove anything to the MTO…I don’t feel I need to prove anything…but because I think it would be genuinely interesting information.

Paid RoM member.hahaha Prolet seems to know a lot of details and too quickly to be a casual observer and as some posts have alluded he has some contacts in government offices. You might recall my posting in Macedonian in other threads albeit using Roman characters. It should have given you an idea about my proficiency or lack there of in Macedonia. Would a Macedonian from RoM be so poor in using Macedonian. The clues are all over the MTO as they are for all of you. Rather than just note what someone says within the context of the thread only remember a bit here a bit there and you can start to piece a picture together of any of us. I’m too Aussie to be a RoM spy. I’m sure you will tier of using the label soon or later.

[sf.]

The figure in case 3 is an error. This looks like a standard survey where they take 75% from Macedonians, 25% from Albanians + insignificant proportion for others.

From 1110, respondents, this equates to 828+/- 2 Macedonians; 280 +/- 2 Albanians; and 1 +/- 2 Other. The results are consistent in questions 1 and 2. In question 3, if the ethnic proportions are accurate, then the overall proportion for the answer "no" should be 67.57% of total answered.

[julie]

OM
...."And then What"
... we become self sufficient, self reliant, debt free, truly independent, self governing and most of all Republic of Macedonia!

Amen Makedonche!!!

OM, you are deluding yourself if you think macedonia's unemployment will decrease and the economy will increase in the affirmative with entrance into little yankee doodie dandy clubby eventuates.

This is from someone that has not lost relatives in battle for the name MACEDONIA.
Someone that will gladly sell their name to get in good with yankee doody dandy.
Your logic is unfounded, and methinks you are a tad pro Crvenkovski, a traiterous politicain.
I suppose you are alos one of those supporters of yankee doody dandy that is in the affirmative with allowing the shiptari to take over RoM

And how is it you see the EU and NATO as being Macedonias saviours? For fuck's sake OM am getting tired of reading your dribble from your pre pubescent spurts.

You dont have a lineage of ancestors that died for Macedonia. I am fucked if AI will be dictated to , yourself appealing to MTO as being supportive of your stupid pathetic rants on how wonderful and what great foresight the governments in RoM have
And you are SUPPORTING the interim accord with your dribble on lets be good Greece, uphold the IA because we are being good little sold out Macedonians
Economically Macedonia does not stand a chance, thed borders are open, there are no visas, we dont need the fucked up EU who are enforcing Geece debt on poor developing countries that are regretting entering the yankus dudus clubus.
INDIGEN and VANGELOVSKI, enlighten this person who is willing to sell our Macedonian name and identity for taken it up the arse like a good little spy.
SHUT UP OM you profess such incredible foresight and intelligence, you are either A/GREEK
B/ PAID RoM member of traiterous parliament

[Lion of Macedon]

No one should sell there soul for their name especially the Macedonians! these institutions will crumble in a matter of years the way there going, so fuck the greeks and these pro american organisations! smrt ili sloboda!

[makedonche]

Tell me OM what would happen to Macedonia if we did this? My view - there would be much financial hardship and pain, loss of international political clout, less investment into the country and so on but our identity would be that which we chose and nobody could fuck with it or negotiate it or bribe us to alter it, and that is worth more than any investors/club memberships or whatever else they are using to make ROM bend over!

At last a sort of answer to my What next question. What you say are very likely the outcomes if we are not part of the eu or another alliance loose or otherwise. On our own alone thing will start grinding down as you have correctly identified. I’m not trying to be facetious about this. I’m trying to point out there is more to the question. Lets play this through.

Macedonia has told the eu nato and un to f off until they decide to accept the name Macedonia and no other.
We dance in the streets celebrating and maybe get drunk. The morning will come no matter what we do.
Then what.

As you have identified foreign companies from the eu back away from investing in Macedonia.
Eu subsidies for agriculture products stop. Prolet might be able to tell us how much this is.
Infrastructure grants also dry up. Macedonia already has infrastructure problems which hinder greater investment both internally but more importantly externally.
Other grants for various things stop eg such as the one that set up our internet.
Preference can be given to agro products from eu countries or higher tariffs imposed on Macedonian agro products making them less competitive or the Macedonian farmers have to settle for less. How much less when input cost such as diesel for tractors combines ect are set external of Macedonia before the Macedonian farmer say give up it costs more to produce then to sell it.
A blanket rule is impose all Macedonian products must have the labelled product of FYROM or will not be accepted for sale in Europe Macedonia’s main market. This extends to usa Canada Australia ect.
Do you FYROM your self or do you f your self.
Visa restrictions are imposed again.
Students and others find it harder to travel.
Less money to the government via taxes or grants or subsidies means less to spend o social projects.
The health reforms and upgrades are wound back
Low cost housing projects are shelved
Unemployment rises from current 30 percent to what…
People cant afford medicines and start to do without unless it is extremely urgent as the poor do in the usa.

Do I need to go on…can I think of everything…want to jump in and add to the list.

Crvenkovski starts making more noises.
The ethnic Albanians say they don’t want to cop the hardship for our stupid name
Backed by eg usa we have a take two on 2001 to split the country and have western Macedonia go to the Albanians and join the eu.
Some predavnicci who already have Bulgarian passports want to go abroad to live
Ect

Oh and by the way the Macedonians call themselves Macedonia but the rest of the world turns around and say f off back we will call you whatever we f ing feel like it Ok FYROM

I guess you could say we are better off…like I said in my previous post it depends how you define better.

And how many will be on this site saying yeah it great to be a patriot in the diaspora with your pockets full hows about coming to live in Macedonia and show us how much of a patriot you are.

Are we back to square one or do you know of a better scenario.
That’s why I kept asking And Then What

OM
...."And then What"
... we become self sufficient, self reliant, debt free, truly independent, self governing and most of all Republic of Macedonia!