Bikie gunned down - Neal Todorovski

[Vangelovski]

EM,

I'm a firm believer in the right to own and use guns for all people, so long as they don't have a violent criminal history. In fact, I am of the view that it is an inalienable right (for reasons that I can expand on in further detail if I have to). But I also support civilian gun ownership because of the evidence/research that I have seen. On the basis of this research/evidence, guns actually save many more people than they harm.

I think many people in Australia have an irrational fear of weapons, and in particular guns, and this is partly the result of an anti-gun agenda by most political parties, mainstream media and extremist interest groups. In terms of media coverage, I have not seen a news item for perhaps over a decade that reports the benefits of gun ownership and use or how they have been used to save lives and protect families and neighbours, even though there are literally millions of instances annually across the world (including Australia) where this happens. It seems that the media in Australia, as opposed to many international outlets, only want to report bad news stories when it comes to guns, even though they are outweighed by the good news stories by huge ratios.

On another note, I think you overestimate Australia's 'seclusion'. In the past 60 years alone, Australia has been threatened with invasion twice, once by the Japanese in World War II and again during the armed conflict with Indonesia in the mid-60's. There have also been some other minor instances with Indonesia that could have potentially led to war and risk invasion. But even now these threats exist, in particular with Indonesia and China. Seeing as Australia refuses to arm itself with nuclear weapons, the next best thing (by a long shot) is to have an armed civilian population, which while it may not necessarily deter invasion, particularly in the north, it will give us the means to try and defend ourselves.

I might start a separate thread to include news items of where people have used guns to protect themselves, family and neighbours - the vast majority of which the guns were never even fired.

[Phoenix]

Calm down, you're making yourself look like a complete fool Brian. You seem to have some sort of prejudice against me, which clouds your judgement in response to my posts.

My statement: " I still think it would be a mistake to follow in the path of the US" was a general one. And I think I've made it quite clear in other discussions that I'm not an advocate of everything the US does. If you made the mistake of grouping that statement with this discussion then that is your own problem, and purely due to miscommunication over the internet, but I'll apologise for it nonetheless.

I was implying that I don't want to see Australia follow in the direct footsteps of the US in some matters. We saw enough arse-kissing during the Howard era. The fast food franchise example was proving that the US isn't the number 1 example for everything, which can easily be applied to this situation.

Don't respond to my posts Brian, frankly I don't give a shit. You're the one who keeps asking questions. I'm happy to reply to your posts, but if don't want to show the same respect then perhaps it isn't worth my time responding to someone who seems to develop personal agendas against people for no apparent reason.

Odi doma kuche.

Careful EM, our Brian is hard core gangster...

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Calm down, you're making yourself look like a complete fool Brian. You seem to have some sort of prejudice against me, which clouds your judgement in response to my posts.

My statement: " I still think it would be a mistake to follow in the path of the US" was a general one. And I think I've made it quite clear in other discussions that I'm not an advocate of everything the US does. If you made the mistake of grouping that statement with this discussion then that is your own problem, and purely due to miscommunication over the internet, but I'll apologise for it nonetheless.

I was implying that I don't want to see Australia follow in the direct footsteps of the US in some matters. We saw enough arse-kissing during the Howard era. The fast food franchise example was proving that the US isn't the number 1 example for everything, which can easily be applied to this situation.

Don't respond to my posts Brian, frankly I don't give a shit. You're the one who keeps asking questions. I'm happy to reply to your posts, but if don't want to show the same respect then perhaps it isn't worth my time responding to someone who seems to develop personal agendas against people for no apparent reason.

Odi doma kuche.

[Brian]

A lot of people perceive America as a messed up country, where the quote is brought up 'only in America.' Of course that is an exaggeration and America is probably one of the best places to live in the world, but I don't think that can be attributed to arming the civilian population.

Making firearms more accessible for the everyday person can help in defending their civil liberties, but there are a lot of nut cases out there who aren't criminals. Australia's system is far more safe in my opinion, and dangerous weapons should only be available to special forces and the army. If anything the restrictions should be tightened to prevent criminals accessing such weaponry, however that is extremely difficult to regulate.

Despite the dramatic difference in population between the US and Australia, I doubt we get half the proportion of massacres that occur in the US by what the community once perceived as 'normal' people. I sure wouldn't want to walk around in a community where every second person is carrying a handgun. Wouldn't you feel intimidated?

Fair enough in the case of a war, the civilian population could be used as a type of militia, but this doesn't really apply at the moment to a country that is secluded and 'down under.' I remember when I was in Macedonia in 2001, being at a restaurant, a friend of one of our relatives was waving a gun around while drunk and cursing about Albanians. It's not a comfortable feeling, and I wouldn't want to potentially be exposed to those kind of encounters on a daily or weekly basis.

Perhaps it is because the crime rate in my area is extremely low that I don't see the necessity in a right to carry arms. Maybe if I saw something like this first-hand my opinion would change, but currently I just don't see the need.



We already have with fast food franchises like McDonalds. Now we have adopted the American lifestyle and find ourselves as one of the most overweight countries in the world. No thanks.

Unless McDonald's sells guns (which I have never known them to do) I have no idea what you are talking about.

My statement, "Wish Australia did" (Post013), was in reference to your post, "Lol I remember the gun debate thread getting pretty heated at times. Interesting point of discussion. I still think it would be a mistake to follow in the path of the US." (Post008).

My understanding of your post was that you were talking about guns following on from RtG's Post004 where he states that he, "...used to be indifferent to guns.", likewise talking about guns, and Vangelovski's Post005 referring to RtG's post (ie guns) implying guns and his preferred view on guns. Then George S's Post006 and RtG's Post007 both refer to guns. All the preceding posts to yours are referring to guns. In fact you also state you, "remember the gun debate thread" (ie referring to guns), and that you think it was an, "Interesting point of discussion."(Post008), so you are also referring to guns. How then could anyone understand the remaining sentence of your post, "I still think it would be a mistake to follow in the path of the US.", to be referring to anything other than guns, let alone somehow be referring to "fast food...(and) overweight countries" (Post017)? One could say you lost the plot, but it's your own post and you specifically mention the "gun debate" so you must know you are referring to guns. You even respond to Vangelovski in the same post referring to guns.

Then why the flippant response? Am I going to have to stop responding to your posts? Was this your intent? You know you could have just said don't talk to me, but then maybe it's better this way that you show your stupidity and inhuman nature to everyone.

Don't reply to my posts in future.

[Big Bad Sven]

In Perth a lot of macedonians are involved with the Bikie's here.

The biggest criminal in Perth is a aegean macedonian called John Kizon, who has "business ties" with many bikie gangs.

Recently i have also seen a lot of macedonians on the news here getting killed in drug related issues.

Apparently a lot of the younger macedonian people here are involved with bikies and drug dealing from what i am told, and hear of a lot of macedonians going to jail. Which is a real shame.

From what i can see a lot of the greeks in Perth are slowly going up on the "social" ladder having met a lot of greek accountants, doctors, lawyers and engineers, while it seems a lot of the perth macedonians are turning to crime.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, what do you consider to be the 'American path'? There are 50 different jurisdictions in the US with differing gun laws, which have differing effects on crime.

A lot of people perceive America as a messed up country, where the quote is brought up 'only in America.' Of course that is an exaggeration and America is probably one of the best places to live in the world, but I don't think that can be attributed to arming the civilian population.

Making firearms more accessible for the everyday person can help in defending their civil liberties, but there are a lot of nut cases out there who aren't criminals. Australia's system is far more safe in my opinion, and dangerous weapons should only be available to special forces and the army. If anything the restrictions should be tightened to prevent criminals accessing such weaponry, however that is extremely difficult to regulate.

Despite the dramatic difference in population between the US and Australia, I doubt we get half the proportion of massacres that occur in the US by what the community once perceived as 'normal' people. I sure wouldn't want to walk around in a community where every second person is carrying a handgun. Wouldn't you feel intimidated?

Fair enough in the case of a war, the civilian population could be used as a type of militia, but this doesn't really apply at the moment to a country that is secluded and 'down under.' I remember when I was in Macedonia in 2001, being at a restaurant, a friend of one of our relatives was waving a gun around while drunk and cursing about Albanians. It's not a comfortable feeling, and I wouldn't want to potentially be exposed to those kind of encounters on a daily or weekly basis.

Perhaps it is because the crime rate in my area is extremely low that I don't see the necessity in a right to carry arms. Maybe if I saw something like this first-hand my opinion would change, but currently I just don't see the need.

Wish Australia did.

We already have with fast food franchises like McDonalds. Now we have adopted the American lifestyle and find ourselves as one of the most overweight countries in the world. No thanks.

[George S.]

brian i never heard a mo truer spoken word.Hoiw hard is the macedonian govt when all else fails the civilians will do the rest.So there is allways a way out.

[Brian]

i would rather have an armed law abiding civilians than an unrmed civilian poulation emphasis on law abiding.
Look at the way the macedonian govt is letting the numbers in the army fall.All the more for civilians to be armed & ready for come what may.

Macedonia, or any country for that matter, would benefit from an armed civilian population.

If we remember George Washington's 'Minutemen,' a ready prepared armed militia, were the rapid response force to any threat.

From what I've been told, back in the Yugo days, ex-servicemen kept their uniform at home for rapid re-deployment. Does anyone know if they still do that in RoM?

[George S.]

i would rather have an armed law abiding civilians than an unrmed civilian poulation emphasis on law abiding.
Look at the way the macedonian govt is letting the numbers in the army fall.All the more for civilians to be armed & ready for come what may.

[Brian]

Lol I remember the gun debate thread getting pretty heated at times. Interesting point of discussion. I still think it would be a mistake to follow in the path of the US.

Wish Australia did.

[Voltron]

On a side note, I saw an Australian movie called "Snowtown" the other day. Man, what a messed up movie that was, although I have to admit I havnt seen that type of a movie for a while. Needless to say you cant imagine how stunned I was when I noticed James last name was Vlassakis lol. I found out after I wiki'd the movie since it was stated it was based on a true story. Not that it means anything, just had to mention it since most of you guys are from the down under.

[Voltron]

Texas being one of them

[Vangelovski]

Australian media generally ignores the millions of instances every year where people use guns to protect themselves, their families or their neighbours and actually save lives. This is because of a political bias against the use of weapons for self-protection, and self-protection in general. There is a perverted idea in Australia that one should allow criminals to do as they please and then let the police investigate it later.

It is a crime against the laws of nature that the Australian people were disarmed in 1996 and it is a further crime against the laws of nature that even though statutory law (in NSW at least) provides for someone to kill another in self-defence, the media, the state and the police will do their best to persecute the victim for defending themselves against a criminal.

RtG, I wouldn't recommend civilian ownership of bazooka's because they are inappropriate for personal protection, but I certainly could think of multiple scenario's in which they would be very useful

EM, what do you consider to be the 'American path'? There are 50 different jurisdictions in the US with differing gun laws, which have differing effects on crime.

[Voltron]

Happy New Year guys,

Gun debates indeed can be a heated issue at times. Espescially in the US. For those that think that Gun Control would make the world safer are fooling themselves. In the US our constitution gives us the right to bear arms. Proponents that are against it somehow believe that if you limit guns homicides would be reduced. What makes you think criminals will abide by the law ? Read this article, and tell me what would of happened if this person did not have the means to protect herself. She saved us taxpayers money by eliminating these types of scum.

911 to teen mom who killed intruder: 'Protect your baby'

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/04/9948522-911-to-teen-mom-who-killed-intruder-protect-your-baby

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Lol I remember the gun debate thread getting pretty heated at times. Interesting point of discussion. I still think it would be a mistake to follow in the path of the US.