The war&occupation in Azerbaijan, which has been ignored by everyone for 20 years

[George S.]

vicsand i'd rather have the turks on my side than the greeks.The turks are our allies & friends.What issues are you talking about??Just remember that before you apply your prejudice it is 2012 things have changed.There is a saying remember the past but don't dwell in it.

[Onur]

I don't want to get personal be attempting to call out people. I don't know which Macedonians had the opportunity to read this post and not comment on it, or not think about the other side, and then combine that with them never (or rarely) having ever questioned the statements made in Onur's posts...and then try to do a personal analysis as to the reasoning why they don't respond (apathy? ignorance?). I'm not in the personal assessment business. I made a statement, which wasn't really personal to any individual in particular (except for Onur), but that I am almost certain could apply to some Macedonians. So I stated it. I read a lot here but don't post much, and am more interested in discussing the ideas and facts about issues rather than a particular individual poster's motives, intentions or feelings.

WOW, gratz. You managed to say basically nothing by using 100+ words!

I was merely using Onur's posting to bring up my opinion/observation on how Macedonia/ns should be cautious about certain Turkish issues in relation to Macedonian issues.

What are you blabbering about?. Why people needs to be cautious? Give us reasons and examples but i don't think you can because this is your subconscious [trying to] speaking here, not your logic and i am probably wasting my time here by asking you to explain your prejudices. This is as pointless as your posts above here.


Edit: I have to say that these type of conversations are much more boring than arguing with a Greek. Greeks at least says something and says directly in an open way but people like this just blabbers about "me having a secret agenda, you should be cautious about that and endless suspicions" bullshit like that. I don't know if this is just one of the typical Balkan illnesses or not but i have to say that it`s frustrating, boring but pretty stupid at the same time.

So, say something properly or shut up [This is not only for vicsinad, for anyone who suffers from this illness].

[vicsinad]

Who are the some?

C'mon soldier...I don't want to get personal be attempting to call out people. I don't know which Macedonians had the opportunity to read this post and not comment on it, or not think about the other side, and then combine that with them never (or rarely) having ever questioned the statements made in Onur's posts...and then try to do a personal analysis as to the reasoning why they don't respond (apathy? ignorance?). I'm not in the personal assessment business. I made a statement, which wasn't really personal to any individual in particular (except for Onur), but that I am almost certain could apply to some Macedonians. So I stated it. I read a lot here but don't post much, and am more interested in discussing the ideas and facts about issues rather than a particular individual poster's motives, intentions or feelings. I was merely using Onur's posting to bring up my opinion/observation on how Macedonia/ns should be cautious about certain Turkish issues in relation to Macedonian issues.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That's why with my post on the top of page 2, I clarified my statement by saying "some Macedonians." Not many, not most, not all. Just some.

Who are the some?

[vicsinad]

You're making the assumption that we aren't aware there are two sides of the story. Have you read the other threads where a number of Macedonians have raised arguments contrary to Onur where it concerns Turkey and its minority issues?

It doesn't matter if its a Greek or a Turk, if anybody spreads lies and misinformation about Macedonia there will naturally be a reaction. Perhaps some Macedonians need to broaden their view and accept certain parallels with the way minorities are treated in Turkey to the way Macedonians were/are treated by their neighbours, but the reason why Macedonians will 'more readily pounce' on a Greek poster is because it is more than likely that the Greek poster will spread garbage about Macedonia and/or Macedonians.

That's why with my post on the top of page 2, I clarified my statement by saying "some Macedonians." Not many, not most, not all. Just some.

As far as your second statement, you said it better than I did. I agree that that is why some Macedonians will more readily pounce on a Greek poster -- the posts tend to involve Macedonian issues and thus have more relevance. And I have made no suggestions that doing so is wrong. I only made the observations that some people tolerate Onur's posts than other people's posts...because of the above discussion we just had.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I felt like now was the time for me to comment on the fact that we should keep in mind that there are two sides to the story with regards to his posts relating to Turkey.

You're making the assumption that we aren't aware there are two sides of the story. Have you read the other threads where a number of Macedonians have raised arguments contrary to Onur where it concerns Turkey and its minority issues?

I understand why Macedonians are more readily to pounce on a Greek's post on here while tolerating a post like this...........

It doesn't matter if its a Greek or a Turk, if anybody spreads lies and misinformation about Macedonia there will naturally be a reaction. Perhaps some Macedonians need to broaden their view and accept certain parallels with the way minorities are treated in Turkey to the way Macedonians were/are treated by their neighbours, but the reason why Macedonians will 'more readily pounce' on a Greek poster is because it is more than likely that the Greek poster will spread garbage about Macedonia and/or Macedonians.

It`s not about my posts. It`s only about my sole existence here by being a Turk. You should have get that by now.

You and I clearly don't see eye to eye on a number of issues. None of my responses to you have been based on your ethnic background. I am sure that is the case with most normal people here.

[vicsinad]

It`s not about my posts. It`s only about my sole existence here by being a Turk. You should have get that by now.

That's not true, Onur...at least not for me. I have nothing against Turkish people. I'm as critical of my American government/nation as I am of any other nation/government. I've had nothing but friendly relations with all Turks I've known on a personal level.

[vicsinad]

Seriously, this is starting to become tiring. What sort of favour has Onur been afforded by myself or any of the other administrators? Who are these other "people" that "tolerate" him, and how many of them are there? How are his posts "tolerated" and what should be the limit of our "tolerance" in this respect? Do you think Macedonians here support massacres against Kurds and/or Armenians? Have you been following all of Onur's conversations and the comments made by other Macedonians where it concerns such massacres? Or do you just read a few comments in support of Onur by people like GeorgeS and co. and suddenly see the light? It would be great if people can start showing some character and actually cite specific examples rather than making generalised comments based on a snapshot of the real picture. This excuse that Onur is given some sort of preference is comical and usually brought up by people who have ran out of things to say.

I never suggested that Onur is being favored, or that he is being given preference. Please don't suggest that I have. I think his posts are fine. I have read many of Onur's posts, and I have read many other people's posts, and I don't comment on a lot. I have nothing against Onur and agree with many thing he's said. However, I felt like now was the time for me to comment on the fact that we should keep in mind that there are two sides to the story with regards to his posts relating to Turkey. This is what I mean by tolerance. Though Greece represents a threat to Macedonia, and Greek posts on here tend to be anti-Macedonian rather than anti-something-Macedonia-has-little-involvement-in, I understand why Macedonians are more readily to pounce on a Greek's post on here while tolerating a post like this (again, tolerating in the sense that on one is quick to question the statements or facts posted by Onur here). I'm not stating whether it's right or wrong to react or not to react, and I'm not making any character assessments, just posting an opinion/observation.

Please don't make things personal when they're not -- I've never suggested you did or didn't do anything.

[Onur]

Seriously, this is starting to become tiring. What sort of favour has Onur been afforded by myself or any of the other administrators? Who are these other "people" that "tolerate" him, and how many of them are there? How are his posts "tolerated" and what should be the limit of our "tolerance" in this respect?

This excuse that Onur is given some sort of preference is comical and usually brought up by people who have ran out of things to say.

It`s not about my posts. It`s only about my sole existence here by being a Turk. You should have get that by now.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Though I somewhat do agree with your post about people on this forum tolerating Onur's posts a little too much.

Seriously, this is starting to become tiring. What sort of favour has Onur been afforded by myself or any of the other administrators? Who are these other "people" that "tolerate" him, and how many of them are there? How are his posts "tolerated" and what should be the limit of our "tolerance" in this respect? Do you think Macedonians here support massacres against Kurds and/or Armenians? Have you been following all of Onur's conversations and the comments made by other Macedonians where it concerns such massacres? Or do you just read a few comments in support of Onur by people like GeorgeS and co. and suddenly see the light? It would be great if people can start showing some character and actually cite specific examples rather than making generalised comments based on a snapshot of the real picture. This excuse that Onur is given some sort of preference is comical and usually brought up by people who have ran out of things to say.

[vicsinad]

I agree.
I also think we won't find any powerful nation that meets your criteria.

I don't think so either. Though it's a very tricky situation to be in. On one hand, Macedonia is a nation still trying to stay afloat. On the other hand, the case for Macedonia's cause is diminished with each contrary/hypocritical action or position it takes. But I still think it's possible to corroborate with these nations to certain extents as long as Macedonia/ns maintain integrity and follow a principled path.

Using the Azerbaijan-Armenian war example: Macedonia/ns should condemn the actions of the Armenians here, especially civilian massacres; but at the same time, not ignore the overwhelming support Azerbaijan received from Chechen terrorists and Mujaheddin (who, as we see, are really no friends of Macedonia).

[Risto the Great]

I think Macedonians need to keep in mind the overarching themes of the struggle for freedom and self-determination before accepting support and making friends. I'd rather Macedonia and Macedonians go down fighting by themselves than accept the support of a much more powerful nation that is also, in one form or another, disregarding the same freedoms, rights and principles that Macedonians have fought for and are still fighting for.

I agree.
I also think we won't find any powerful nation that meets your criteria.

[vicsinad]

Would you agree that Greece represents a far more immediate threat to Macedonia than Turkey (even over the last 100 years)?

I'm prepared to offer Turks more latitude than typical Greeks in matters pertaining to Macedonia.

Well, first... I am making a distinction between the people and the nation-states. But yes, overall Greece represents the more immediate threat.

However, for one example, for all the differences between Kurdistan and Macedonia, I do not give Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria any latitude in denying an ethnic group a right to a homeland. Sure, many Kurds utilize terrorism to achieve their goals, and I don't condone that. But then again, so did many Macedonians in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

I think Macedonians need to keep in mind the overarching themes of the struggle for freedom and self-determination before accepting support and making friends. I'd rather Macedonia and Macedonians go down fighting by themselves than accept the support of a much more powerful nation that is also, in one form or another, disregarding the same freedoms, rights and principles that Macedonians have fought for and are still fighting for.

[Risto the Great]

Sometimes I get the impression that some Macedonians are willing to ignore Turkey's blunders for the sake of maintaining a friendship of convenience due to "common enemies."

Would you agree that Greece represents a far more immediate threat to Macedonia than Turkey (even over the last 100 years)?

I'm prepared to offer Turks more latitude than typical Greeks in matters pertaining to Macedonia.

[fatso]

Giorikas:

I have this book published in 1959 by Dudley Barker called: "Grivas: Portrait of a Terrorist." You know...that guy who terrorized Cyprus all in expanding Greece's borders and assuming power over all of Greece. Very good explanations about the Greek terrorism that ravaged Cyprus in the 1950s. So to say that the outside world isn't "buying" any of it isn't quite true.

Though I somewhat do agree with your post about people on this forum tolerating Onur's posts a little too much. Sometimes I get the impression that some Macedonians are willing to ignore Turkey's blunders for the sake of maintaining a friendship of convenience due to "common enemies."

I totally agree with both your statements......Well said