Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe

[Giorikas]

Really?
You don't want to just give an answer?
I asked the question, go for it. You Greek sorts get all huffity puffity when I answer a question with a question. But surely this is an easy answer for you to give. Give it a go.

With you it's different. It became your trademark. Part of the masterplan in your cat and mouse game with Greeks.

[TerraNova]

Really?
You don't want to just give an answer?
I asked the question, go for it. You Greek sorts get all huffity puffity when I answer a question with a question. But surely this is an easy answer for you to give. Give it a go.

So..you don't have an definition for Macedonians?

Since you have so many definitions for Greek Refugees and the Greeks as a whole,you must have a clear image of what Macedonian is.

[TerraNova]

The dual noun identity is more common and suitable to the following examples: "I am an African American" (African descent, living in America), "I am Greek Australian" (Greek descent, living in Australia), "I am an Australian Macedonian" (Used in reverse, but with the same meaning, Macedonian descent, living in Australia), etc. The term 'Greek Macedonian' is indicative of a Greek living in another country, otherwise, the added reference is completely irrelevant as there is no logical need for anybody to refer to themselves as a 'Greek Macedonian' or 'Greek Athenian' or 'Greek Spartan', etc if they all live in Greece. With this in mind, I don't recognize terms such as 'Greek Macedonian' or 'Macedonian Greek' to mean anything other than a Macedonian living in Greece, it does not represent a 'Greek' from Macedonia (Unless of course it was in the republic, where a Greek could find some grounds for justification being in a foreign state). Have you ever heard anybody say, "Hey, my name is John I am an American New Yorker", "Oh hi there, my name is Timothy, I am a German Berlinian", "Gia sou, my name is Greekoglou and I am a Greek Athenian" - This kind of self-reference is simply not used because, as can be clearly seen from the above comparisons, it is utterly stupid and irrelevant.

I wouldn't use the term "Greek Macedonian" if i wasn't speaking with you-I just use it to avoid confusion.
When I speak with a Thessalian,or a Peloponesean ,i just can say i am MACEDONIAN.
As he doesnt have to clarify he is Greek..and Thessalian...the same i don't have to make this clarification!
Because you are Macedonian too...i must avoid confusion and moreover i don't want to INSULT you by using the term as my exclusive right.

Yet all of these siblings come from the same family, have the same native culture and customs, speak the same native Macedonian language and have shared a common affinity in relation to all of the above and so much more over centuries of continued communal interaction within the greater Macedonian region.

Most of them don't want to self-identify as Macedonians!! Many of them not even refer to their parents' language as Makedonski jazik ,but as dopia or Bulgarian.
Their granpas fought against the Bulgarians and exarchy and for Greece.
Can you force them to think as u like??

[Dejan]

The dual noun identity is more common and suitable to the following examples: "I am an African American" (African descent, living in America), "I am Greek Australian" (Greek descent, living in Australia), "I am an Australian Macedonian" (Used in reverse, but with the same meaning, Macedonian descent, living in Australia), etc. The term 'Greek Macedonian' is indicative of a Greek living in another country, otherwise, the added reference is completely irrelevant as there is no logical need for anybody to refer to themselves as a 'Greek Macedonian' or 'Greek Athenian' or 'Greek Spartan', etc if they all live in Greece. With this in mind, I don't recognize terms such as 'Greek Macedonian' or 'Macedonian Greek' to mean anything other than a Macedonian living in Greece, it does not represent a 'Greek' from Macedonia (Unless of course it was in the republic, where a Greek could find some grounds for justification being in a foreign state). Have you ever heard anybody say, "Hey, my name is John I am an American New Yorker", "Oh hi there, my name is Timothy, I am a German Berlinian", "Gia sou, my name is Greekoglou and I am a Greek Athenian" - This kind of self-reference is simply not used because, as can be clearly seen from the above comparisons, it is utterly stupid and irrelevant.

By the use of this dual noun identity by our southern neighbors, they are showing that they are not originally from Macedonia. They are also doing a great job in distinguishing between us Macedonians, and them. Bravo!

Another great post SoM! Alal da ti e!

[Risto the Great]

Define me the term Macedonian first.

Really?
You don't want to just give an answer?
I asked the question, go for it. You Greek sorts get all huffity puffity when I answer a question with a question. But surely this is an easy answer for you to give. Give it a go.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The right of self declaration of a party as ethnic Macedonian-or every individual's too- has NOTHING to do with an official recognition by the Greek state of a minority as Macedonian.
This would deny the identity of all Greek Macedonians-as it would strangely recognize exclusivity of the term on a really small part of the population.

Don't try and think of too many points of discussion at once, your confusion replicates itself in the literary spew you seem to cough up from time to time. The right of a party to register as 'Macedonian' has EVERYTHING to do with the Greek state on an official basis. Attempts have been made to establish a 'Macedonian' cultural centre in Greece which was denied, and you are now trying to tell me that if Vinozito wished they could name their party 'Macedonian' any time? And then, after trying to push forth such falsities, you tell me that this would deny the identity of who? What is a Greek Macedonian? A Macedonian from Greece? An Asian immigrant whose ancestry arrived in Macedonia 80 years ago? A descendant of a Vlach merchant? A coloniser from the south?

The dual noun identity is more common and suitable to the following examples: "I am an African American" (African descent, living in America), "I am Greek Australian" (Greek descent, living in Australia), "I am an Australian Macedonian" (Used in reverse, but with the same meaning, Macedonian descent, living in Australia), etc. The term 'Greek Macedonian' is indicative of a Greek living in another country, otherwise, the added reference is completely irrelevant as there is no logical need for anybody to refer to themselves as a 'Greek Macedonian' or 'Greek Athenian' or 'Greek Spartan', etc if they all live in Greece. With this in mind, I don't recognize terms such as 'Greek Macedonian' or 'Macedonian Greek' to mean anything other than a Macedonian living in Greece, it does not represent a 'Greek' from Macedonia (Unless of course it was in the republic, where a Greek could find some grounds for justification being in a foreign state). Have you ever heard anybody say, "Hey, my name is John I am an American New Yorker", "Oh hi there, my name is Timothy, I am a German Berlinian", "Gia sou, my name is Greekoglou and I am a Greek Athenian" - This kind of self-reference is simply not used because, as can be clearly seen from the above comparisons, it is utterly stupid and irrelevant.

http://www.florina.org/rainbow/about_e.asp
EUROPEAN FREE ALLIANCE-RAINBOW
POLITICAL PARTY OF THE MACEDONIAN MINORITY IN GREECE.

Is it legally allowed to be registered as, or it is legally registered as, a MACEDONIAN party?

It happens even in the same family ,one brother to declare Greek and the other Macedonian or Bulgarian !

Yet all of these siblings come from the same family, have the same native culture and customs, speak the same native Macedonian language and have shared a common affinity in relation to all of the above and so much more over centuries of continued communal interaction within the greater Macedonian region.

Long live your Greeks, who seem to be a nation of the brainwashed, easily led and easily fed. Don't ever forget your first constitution, ANYBODY COULD BE A GREEK. 97% purity, lol...........

[TerraNova]

Seriously, define a Greek Macedonian. I honestly want to know.

Define me the term Macedonian first.

[Risto the Great]

This would deny the identity of all Greek Macedonians-as it would strangely recognize exclusivity of the term on a really small part of the population.

Seriously, define a Greek Macedonian. I honestly want to know.

[TerraNova]

The Right to self-determination is without pre-conditions. It is a fundamental Human Right.

If you do not understand that, as you clearly do not, then without a doubt you will maintain your innocence whilst denying the Rights of my people.

But whether you understand it or not, whether you accept it or not, whether you deny it or not, you are still wrong and you are denying the Human Rights of the Macedonian minority.

The Right of SELF-Determination is a Human Right. Every individual is free to express it in Greece.

The Macedonian ethnic minority in Greece is a more complicated matter though ,for the following TWO reasons.


1)Name.

As the Greek state is impossible to recognize exclusivity over the name Macedonia to a small number of its citizens,since the name problem is not solved,Greece will never recognize a minority as Macedonian.

2)Self determination.Absence of villages with pure population who claim to be Macedonian.

The remaining Slavic speakers in Greek Macedonia (and their descendants with Greek as mother tongue) do NOT have a common ethnic consiousness.
MOST of them self determine as Greek ,while a minority as Macedonians ,and an even small proportion as Bulgarians.
There are not whole villages with a common determination.
It happens even in the same family ,one brother to declare Greek and the other Macedonian or Bulgarian !

[Rogi]

The Right to self-determination is without pre-conditions. It is a fundamental Human Right.

If you do not understand that, as you clearly do not, then without a doubt you will maintain your innocence whilst denying the Rights of my people.

But whether you understand it or not, whether you accept it or not, whether you deny it or not, you are still wrong and you are denying the Human Rights of the Macedonian minority.

[TerraNova]

The Greek state says the opposite, most Greek people say the opposite, both these components however make for a delusional thought process leading to the moronic and pitiful frame of mind it infact is.

The right of self declaration of a party as ethnic Macedonian-or every individual's too- has NOTHING to do with an official recognition by the Greek state of a minority as Macedonian.
This would deny the identity of all Greek Macedonians-as it would strangely recognize exclusivity of the term on a really small part of the population.

I m not trying to .."persuade" you! I am just trying to give you what is exactly my point of view.
It's a matter of understanding.
There is no winner in it.

So you are telling me, that if Vinozito wanted to officially change their name to the 'Macedonian Party', there would be no objection and outcry from all segments of Greek society, not least the legal system, which would reject it without a thought? Are you serious? I think you are in some sort of wierd semi-denial.

http://www.florina.org/rainbow/about_e.asp

EUROPEAN FREE ALLIANCE-RAINBOW
POLITICAL PARTY OF THE MACEDONIAN MINORITY IN GREECE.

None of the above will ever be accepted as the name of my people, we are and only will be Macedonians. If there are those that may display symptoms of creatures from another planet, like your martians, you may want to take a look in the mirror.

Millions of Greeks around the world can bitch and believe whatever fantasies they like, Macedonia, the Macedonian people, and the Macedonian language exist and are a reality. The main message that the millions of Macedonians around the world have for the Greeks is simple: WE WILL NEVER CHANGE OUR MACEDONIAN NAME. Each to their own, you people have no right over us.

You don't have to be upset.
This is your view.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Of course there is -who says the opposite?

The Greek state says the opposite, most Greek people say the opposite, both these components however make for a delusional thought process leading to the moronic and pitiful frame of mind it infact is.

Greece does not allow it???Are you serious ?Who stopped them to declare what they want and name their party as Macedonian??

So you are telling me, that if Vinozito wanted to officially change their name to the 'Macedonian Party', there would be no objection and outcry from all segments of Greek society, not least the legal system, which would reject it without a thought? Are you serious? I think you are in some sort of wierd semi-denial.

It's evidence-not proof.

1)2)

Try and get the 1) and 2) in the proper placing first, before you proceed to generously provide your laughable advice of irrelevance.

If a solution for the name was found-like Slav Macedonians,NewMacedonians,UpperMacedonians or Martian Macedonians , things would be much easier for a recognition of a minority.

None of the above will ever be accepted as the name of my people, we are and only will be Macedonians. If there are those that may display symptoms of creatures from another planet, like your martians, you may want to take a look in the mirror.

Millions of Greeks around the world can bitch and believe whatever fantasies they like, Macedonia, the Macedonian people, and the Macedonian language exist and are a reality. The main message that the millions of Macedonians around the world have for the Greeks is simple: WE WILL NEVER CHANGE OUR MACEDONIAN NAME. Each to their own, you people have no right over us.

[TerraNova]

1) By your own self-admission there IS a Macedonian party in Greece, hence Macedonians*.
2) Greece does not call nor allow this party to call itself Macedonian, even though you just did. HELLO!!!
3) The amount of votes the party takes does not indicate the amount of Macedonians in Greece.

1)2)Of course there is -who says the opposite?
Greece does not allow it???Are you serious ?Who stopped them to declare what they want and name their party as Macedonian??
They have their conference these days,as a Macedonian party.

Of course they have the right of self determination ad they practise it,but this doesn't force the Greek state to recognize a minority called Macedonian.

If a solution for the name was found-like Slav Macedonians,NewMacedonians,UpperMacedonians or Martian Macedonians , things would be much easier for a recognition of a minority.

3)It's evidence-not proof.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hello!
There is a Macedonian party in Greece.
And takes some 2.000 votes.
(Population of Greece 11.000.000-Population of Geek Macedonia 2.450.000)

1) By your own self-admission there IS a Macedonian party in Greece, hence Macedonians.
2) Greece does not call nor allow this party to call itself Macedonian, even though you just did. HELLO!!!
3) The amount of votes the party takes does not indicate the amount of Macedonians in Greece.

[makedonin]

the way I see it, the Grks will use their position to mock ROM for not giving rights of the Shiptars maybe even promote the Human Rights of the supposed Greeks in ROM and push how ROM is non democratic and elections are mass and stuff.