The Macedonian Minority in Albania and Kosovo

[Serdarot]

Calm down, Serdarot! I think it is very pointless to get a mad with me because Gorani do not called themselves as Macedonians! How can I be un-informed, liar and propagandist when all what I say is the impression I've got after a lot of meetings and conversations with Goranis?

...

and i´ve met many Gorani and Torbeshi who are clearly stating that they are Macedonians.

the theories about separate ethnic group Gorani / Torbeshi who have Thracian or "Bogomil" roots are pure anti-Macedonian propaganda.

Btw, seems that you are not best friend with logic

how could i know that your text is full of bs, if i don´t read it first?

[fyrOM]

No doubt the words derived from gor refer to up upper or high but also can refer to woods or forest as in crna gora. Could the gorani people be simply referring to the wood forest people as any mountainous region has forests growing on it. it’s a strange word because words such as burn gori fuel gorilo. I could be way off but many words have this strange link. If I had to guess up upper and high would have been the first use as you can refer to things being up high without any reference to wood but the woods are in the mountains ie a high place and the mountains are covered with woods/forests and stuff you brink back from the mountains is fuel.

Odi gore na plaminata I zemi drva za gorilo da imame sto da gorime vecer. I think the reference of gora as woods is Serbian. The area gorani as previously posted by many seems to have a Serbian influence. Could the be referring the up high woodland/forest people.

[Epirot]

Epirot, I read lots of articles and personal statements from the Turks in Kosovo about Albanian oppression to force them to accept Albanian identity. It`s widely known problem here in Turkey.

Also, i don't know the case atm but there was Albanian pressure upon Turkish people in Macedonia too.

OK...but you did not bring any article from a lots you have read?
How can Albanians do oppression to force Turks to accept the Albanian identity, when Albanians do not govern the state of Kosova? I mean here is a puppet government but nobody gives a shit for it because it is sub-ordinated into the hands of foreign authorities. It just like in Bosnia and Hercegovina where independence exists only in documents but not in reality because Americans are overlords of Bosnia. So, your claim that Albanians make oppression upon the non-Albanians is just speculation.

[Epirot]

in your la la land?

what you gonna do if some Goran say "i am Macedonian"??? gonna admit that you are un-informed, liar, propagandist?

btw, rest of your text (most of it) is also bunch of bs...

Calm down, Serdarot! I think it is very pointless to get a mad with me because Gorani do not called themselves as Macedonians! How can I be un-informed, liar and propagandist when all what I say is the impression I've got after a lot of meetings and conversations with Goranis?

I am not propagandizing nothing because I don't claim Goranis as Albanians, Macedonians, Serbians or Bulgarians. I just claim that they are a distinct ethno-linguistic group. That's all!

If the rest of my text is a bunch of bs, why do you read it?

See ya

[Onur]

Saying that 'ethnic Albanian extremists that go from place to place forcing people to declare as 'Albanians' is just a dirty speculation. Firstly, you have no clue who are these Albanian extremist because there is no documented evidence of any case when Albanians forced to declare others as Albanians.



2. 'Supposed Asiatic heritage of Bulgarians'? Are you out of mind, SoM? Asiatic heritage of the Bulgarians is not a supposed thing but a very well-documented fact. All Bulgarian historians do admit their Asiatic background, so it would be a non-sense to be smarter than Bulgarian historians.

I guess that Central Asiatic origin of the Bulgarians is the prevailing opinion or case closed!

Epirot, I read lots of articles and personal statements from the Turks in Kosovo about Albanian oppression to force them to accept Albanian identity. It`s widely known problem here in Turkey.

Also, i don't know the case atm but there was Albanian pressure upon Turkish people in Macedonia too.




About Bulgars;
AFAIK, this story of Persian connection with early Bulgars recently made up by some Bulgarian nationalists. It doesn't have any provable base. It`s probably just an attempt to connect themselves with antiquity world, to the Persians.

Bulgars simply came from Volga region before the era of Mongol invasion. They were mostly Tatars who spoke Turkic language. They were using Turkic Orkhon script. They have been mixed with all the local people in Balkans, including Cuman Turks and they have been converted to Christianity laters. Around same time, their cousins Volga Bulgars(Tatars) converted to Islam but they preserved their own Turkic language.

Second Bulgar Kingdom at Balkans(first one was at Volga), founded by a dynasty named "Asen", which means "wolf" in Turkish. Wolves was a sacred animal in Turkish shamanism, also there was another dynasty named "Asen" at Gokturk(sky-turks) empire of 6th century at Caucasus. I read a book about this last month, so i remember the name of one of the Khan was "Ivan Asen the Belgun" which means "Ivan the wise wolf" in Turkish. We use the same word as "Bilgin" in Turkish atm, means "wise" in English.

Their second dynasty was named "Terters" which basically derived from the word "Tatars"

This one is funny; Their last dynasty before the conquest of Ottoman Empire was named as "Shishman, Sisman", means "fat, fatty, overweight" in Turkish I have no idea why they nicknamed themselves as "fatty", probably the first Khan was just obese or maybe other people called them like that, dunno

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asen_dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terter_dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shishman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolgar_language

Instead of wikipedia links, you can read the book here;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=52110#post52110

[Serdarot]

...because no Goran has ever identify himself as a Macedonian.

in your la la land?

what you gonna do if some Goran say "i am Macedonian"??? gonna admit that you are un-informed, liar, propagandist?

btw, rest of your text (most of it) is also bunch of bs...

[Epirot]

The Macedonian 'Gora' is more likely an old IE word, related to Greek 'Oros'. In Macedonian 'Gore' can mean 'up' or 'high up', hence the relation to mountains.

In my opinion, if the Gorans can be validly linked to any ethno-linguistic identity, it would have to be the Macedonians. They certainly aren't Albanians, and the Albanian definition of Gorani as 'Bosniaks' is very recent and a result of Slavic-speaking Muslims in the Balkans (irrespective of where they are scattered) trying to form a unified 'identity'. It is quite artificial. The Macedonian Muslims identify as Macedonians, except those villages that find themselves subordinate to ethnic Albanian extremists that go from place to place forcing people to declare as 'Albanians'. If you look through this thread you will notice several cited examples of the kinship between the Macedonian Muslims of Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo.

As for the Thracian 'origin', possible, but that would then include all other persons speaking a related tongue in the area, which then makes it probable. Today's Slavic-speaking people are the descendants of the Thracians. As for Bulgarians, they certainly do have a Thracian heritage, but they're more obsessed with their supposed heritage that rode in from Asia.

SoM you're making prejudices now...because no Goran has ever identify himself as a Macedonian. They are distinct ethno-linguistic group from the rest of Slavs. That's all. Their spoken language may have been influenced by other Slavic languages but this does not make them Serbs, Bosniaks, Macedonians, Bulgars etc. In Kërçova region (or as you pronounce as Kichevo) the Torbesh villages are scattered mostly in Drugovë municipality. I met many of them but they called themselves Torbesh and not Macedonian.

Saying that 'ethnic Albanian extremists that go from place to place forcing people to declare as 'Albanians' is just a dirty speculation. Firstly, you have no clue who are these Albanian extremist because there is no documented evidence of any case when Albanians forced to declare others as Albanians. I don't know how you know the political system in Kosova, but here the real masters of Kosova are UNMIK, EULEX and foreign embassies that follows a multhiethnic policy forcing others to became 'minorities' in order to get more financial aids, jobs or other benefitions. You have no idea how many people here in Kosova declared themselves as 'minorities' in order to get a privileged status...this goes so far as many Serbian refugees (from Croatia or Bosnia) declared blatantly themselves as 'refugees' from Kosova. UNMIK and other European institutions settled them in Kosova, build to them new houses and giving a lot of financial aids. So, believe me, that nobody in Kosova is forced to became an Albanian. But this not the end because one year ago was promoted a new 'minority' of Montenegrins. To be honest, in Kosova are not more than 50 Montenegrins and now they desire to be a 'minority' with full-granted constitutional rights.
Definitely, I challenge you to find just a single documented proof of any extremist group of Albanians forcing others to be Albanians?

2. 'Supposed Asiatic heritage of Bulgarians'? Are you out of mind, SoM? Asiatic heritage of the Bulgarians is not a supposed thing but a very well-documented fact. All Bulgarian historians do admit their Asiatic background, so it would be a non-sense to be smarter than Bulgarian historians.

For a very long time the oldest cradle of the Bulgarian tribe remained hidden for the scrutiny of science. Some looked for it in Altai and Mongolia, others, like D. Susulov, N. Stanishev, in Tarim, to the East of Pamir. There were others who looked to the North, in the Caucasus
[...]
Anthropological research also shows that ancient Bulgarians have lived some time in the past in Pamir. In their physical appearance the old Bulgarians resembled very much the Pamir-Fergan racial type, that originated in the southern and the most civilized part of Central Asia. According to the oldest Armenian geography "the Bulgarians were among the 15 peoples "who inhabited once the land between Turkestan and the Areans in the foots of the mountain Imai" (today Pamir and Hindukush).Since the name Turkestan was used before 6-7th century for the land beyond Sur-Darya, and the word "areans" was the name for the people in the Persian region of Area, this description indicates that the Bulgarians have lived at some period to the East of Persia and to the West of Sur-Darya - the mountains of Pamir and Hindukush. On the geographic map, appended to "Ashharatsuits", recently published by academician S. Eremyan, the name of the Bulgarians is located exactly at the point where the western ranges of the Imeon mountains meet it snorthern ranges - the Zervansh crest of Pamir. In the well known Latin anonymous Chronograph of 345, the name of the ancient Bulgarians is used as a replacement of the old Baktrinians, who inhabited the lands near the Pamir and the Hindukush. This is to show that for the compilers of this early historical source the Bulgarians were a part of the peoples inhabiting the region between Persia and Turkestan. Two more facts deserve attention. In the northern parts of the Pamir there was a state, called by the Sogdinians BLGAR, by the Arabs -BURGAR, and by the Tadziks - FALGAR. And to the West of the Pamir Indian sources (MAHABHARATA and the PURANAS) mention people of the name of BOLHI , BAHLIKA or BOLHIKI, ruled by the ancient king KARDAMA, and the Arab sources mention the ancient land of BALHARA. Some more details, suggested about a century ago by Prof. Vassil Zlatarski, are also of importance: round the mountain of Imeon there were, according to the Byzantine historian Agatius, the lands of the Kutrigurs, Utigurs and Vurugunds (presumably the Unogondurs). In the same region was situated the Onogur town of Bakat, according to Simokata. And lastly, the same region is the land of origin of the tribe of Kozagirs in whom Zlatarski, reasonably, sees the predecessors of the well known Bulgarian division "Kuchi-bulgar" like today's Afghan Kuchis. All scholarly evidence of the lands of origin of ancient Bulgarians focuses on one and the same geographic region - the Pamir and the Hindukush. Attempts to look for the oldest lands of the Bulgarians fareast - in Turkestan and Mongolia, where lived the tribes PU-KU and BAIEGU, mentioned in Chinese sources, or near the Mongolian river Tolaand the lake Balhash, have failed. For behind the Chinese words Pu-Kuand Baiegu are hidden the Kirgiz tribes BUGU and MAIIRKU, who have nothing in common with the ancient Bulgarians. The name Tola in the eastern Altai languages means deep-water river , and Balhash in Tuvinian means literally "swamp, moor". Fortunately there is a chronicle that has survived and it describes directly the land of origin of the Bulgarians in Europe. It was left by Mikhail the Syrian - Patriarch of Antiohia, called for his scholarly distinctionand erudition Mar Mikhail the Great. Here is what he says: "At those times there came from internal Skitia (Central Asia) three brothers,wholead with them 30 000 Skitians, and took the road of 60 days to the gorges of Imeon (Pamir and Hindukush) to the river Tanais (the Don),which flows into the lake of Meotida. Those people were named by the Romans Bulgars." This short description, discovered by Vassil Zlatarski, shows that the lands of ancient Bulgarians were in the valleys of the Pamir and the Hindukush. Starting from there, in about 60 days they reached the river Don and the Azov sea. If we start in the opposite direction from the Don to the east, we can easily confirm the correctness of this short story. For it is true that in about 60 days one can reach on foot from the Don to the northern foots of the Pamir, where the old lands of BALGAR were, called even today by the local Tadziks PALGAR. After almost two centuries of research and the endeavors of many scholars the sacred fatherland of the Bulgarians was discovered. This land, so dear to us, was situated in the foots of the Pamir and the Hindukush, where since ancient times existed the states of BALGAR and BALHARA.

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connect...c-Bulgaria.php

I guess that Central Asiatic origin of the Bulgarians is the prevailing opinion or case closed!

[Onur]

As for Bulgarians, they certainly do have a Thracian heritage, but they're more obsessed with their supposed heritage that rode in from Asia.

Bulgars are definitely came to Balkans from Volga region about ~1200 years ago. Current Turkic speaking Tatar people living in Volga are their distant cousins. You know, they are also called as Volga Bulgars. Khazars Turks defeated them in a war and expelled them to the Balkans. Khazar khan mentions about this event in his letter written at AD960.

Khazar Correspondence, I linked it here b4;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=50573#post50573

Also the founder monarchy of Bulgar kingdom in Balkans had Turkish names `till 14th century. Their Thracian heritage comes from their intermarriage with them, after they came to Balkans.

This is a common fact even among Bulgarian scholars but we would have more evidences about this if they wouldn't destroy all the remainders of their earlier life and their old shamanistic belief after they converted to Christianity. You know this was a common thing for Christianity conversions. When people converted to Christianity, they have destroyed everything related with their former religion and culture because pagan like beliefs was considered as evil. Romans tried to destroy everything about ancient Egypt too. They abandoned old religion, damaged the monuments, records and killed all Egyptian monks.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It may be derived from Albanian 'Gur' which means: 'stone' or 'rugged place'. That makes some sense because fits perfectly to the mountains of Sharr region.

The Macedonian 'Gora' is more likely an old IE word, related to Greek 'Oros'. In Macedonian 'Gore' can mean 'up' or 'high up', hence the relation to mountains.

Gorans are neither Serbs, Bulgars or Macedonians. That's the impression i got from a lot of meetings with them. One of them (student in University of Prishtina) told me that Gorans traced back their origin to the Thracians.

In my opinion, if the Gorans can be validly linked to any ethno-linguistic identity, it would have to be the Macedonians. They certainly aren't Albanians, and the Albanian definition of Gorani as 'Bosniaks' is very recent and a result of Slavic-speaking Muslims in the Balkans (irrespective of where they are scattered) trying to form a unified 'identity'. It is quite artificial. The Macedonian Muslims identify as Macedonians, except those villages that find themselves subordinate to ethnic Albanian extremists that go from place to place forcing people to declare as 'Albanians'. If you look through this thread you will notice several cited examples of the kinship between the Macedonian Muslims of Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo.

As for the Thracian 'origin', possible, but that would then include all other persons speaking a related tongue in the area, which then makes it probable. Today's Slavic-speaking people are the descendants of the Thracians. As for Bulgarians, they certainly do have a Thracian heritage, but they're more obsessed with their supposed heritage that rode in from Asia.

[Epirot]

Wow. Messy pizza.

Gora is a native word. I think it means "high places".

Linguists have been trying to work out the language of the Gorani. It is not Serbian. It most closely resembles the Mijak Macedonian dialect i.e., the language of Georgi Kastriots mother, Vojslava. The region was ceded to Serbia i think in 1967? Someone might want to check that out.

The U.N mission in Kosovo doesn't recognise them as Macedonian, even though they self declare as Macedonians. The terminology used to describe them ranges from Torbesh to Serbian to Bosniak.

Their unequivical recognition as the traditional land holders of that region by the Kosovo parliament is a precondition for any kind of recognition.

It may be derived from Albanian 'Gur' which means: 'stone' or 'rugged place'. That makes some sense because fits perfectly to the mountains of Sharr region. Gorans are neither Serbs, Bulgars or Macedonians. That's the impression i got from a lot of meetings with them. One of them (student in University of Prishtina) told me that Gorans traced back their origin to the Thracians.
I think that is the misleading point on which are struggling Bulgarians to bulgarize Gorans. Of course, Bulgarians have nothing in share with Thracians (except territory) but some Thracian remnants survive in Rhodope mountains, during Bulgarian/Hun invasion of Thrace.

Marin Barleti, the prominent biographer of Scanderbeg tells us that Dibra (or as you Macedonians pronounce it Debar) was a Thracian city.

Albanians perceive Gorans as Bosniaks. I can say that we cannot give a definition on Gorani's background.

[makedonche]

Nope,not good enough.
Albania should amend its constitution to give disproportional representation to the minorities. Or is Macedonia the only country stupid enough to do this??

RTG
Indeed!!!!!!! Reciprocal rights would be welcome! Alternatively we should just remove the Albanians rights in ROM in line with similar rights for Macedonians in Albania!

[Risto the Great]

Nope,not good enough.
Albania should amend its constitution to give disproportional representation to the minorities. Or is Macedonia the only country stupid enough to do this??

[Coolski]

This is good to see. I hope these words translate to concrete developments for Macedonians in Albania.

[fyrOM]

Albania establishes minorities sector

Getting there bit by bit.




Albania establishes minorities sector

http://www.idividi.com.mk/English/World/603381/index.html

Tirana, 25 May 2010 (MIA) - A minorities sector has been established within Albania's Ministry of Culture, Tourism, Youth and Sport, in line with the country's EU integration obligations, MIA reports from Tirana.

The sector is to focus on protection of the ethnic, lingual, cultural and religious identity of minorities in Albania.

Sector officials, led by ministry advisor Bardul Londo, met in Pustec with representatives of the Macedonian minority, led by mayor Edmond Temelko. The ministry officials presented the sector's priorities, planning to financially assist specific projects aimed at promoting the cultural identity of minorities in Albania.

Pustec mayor Temelko focused on the current situation of the Macedonian minority and urged sector representatives to consider all ethnic Macedonians, since "they do not live solely in Pustec, but also in Golo Brdo, Gora, Devol and major Albanian cities".

Moreover, interlocutors agreed that the sector funds the printing of the only Macedonian-language newspaper issued in Albania titled "Prespa", the Macedonian folklore festival in Mala Prespa, along with the printing of books by ethnic Macedonian authors from Albania.

[Mastika]

Prolet, lets not start the number crunching brato.
100,000 Macedonians in Albania posted , where do you get the figure of 5000 from?

Only the Macedonian minority in the Mala Prespa is officially recognised, the villages of Mala Prespa have a population of 5,000.