The Macedonian Minority in Albania and Kosovo

[Pelister]

Its a big move.

It is great to see this kind of thing happening at last.

I wonder how many Macedonians still self identify as such in Albania?

[Risto the Great]

They are an awesome bunch of people and are very committed to their Macedonian identity.

They left a lasting impact on my Father when he went there many years ago on Macedonian matters.

[Dimko-piperkata]

Macedonians party in Albania to hold its first congress

Tirana /30/10/ 10:34

Macedonian Alliance for European Integration, the party of Macedonian minority in Albania, is set to hold its first congress on November 9, Makfax correspondent said.

According to Prespa newspaper, a paper run by Macedonian community in Albania, the congress comes after many years of hard work.

Macedonians in Albania expect the upcoming event to be a congress of unity and unification.

They expect the party to do its outmost to ensure that Macedonians in Albania may exercise fully and effectively all their human rights on equal terms with others in society. Macedonians also expect to be entitled to higher posts in public life.

The congress of the Macedonian alliance for European Integration will be of high significance to the party's preparations for elections slated for next year.

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=130090&NrIssue=807&NrSection=10

[Pelister]

In Serbia they are called Goranci and are considered a unique nation. Just so you know so that no more propaganda be spilled that the Serbs consider them Serbs. Only idiot Serbs do that and I would be glad if that adjective be placed in every reference of this kind.

Some Serb linguists, say they speak a "Serbian" dialect, and point to the similarities between the Gorani langauge, and the langauge of a small enclave of Serbs, just East of the Kosovo border, in Metodija but that exists no where else in the balkans. No other Serbs use it. I've heard some Serbians describe it as "Old Serbian". It gets messy when they say that.

They are unique, and it would be ashame to see them lost to Albanianism.

[Delodephius]

In Serbia they are called Goranci and are considered a unique nation. Just so you know so that no more propaganda be spilled that the Serbs consider them Serbs. Only idiot Serbs do that and I would be glad if that adjective be placed in every reference of this kind.

[Pelister]

Wow. Messy pizza.

Gora is a native word. I think it means "high places".

Linguists have been trying to work out the language of the Gorani. It is not Serbian. It most closely resembles the Mijak Macedonian dialect i.e., the language of Georgi Kastriots mother, Vojslava. The region was ceded to Serbia i think in 1967? Someone might want to check that out.

The U.N mission in Kosovo doesn't recognise them as Macedonian, even though they self declare as Macedonians. The terminology used to describe them ranges from Torbesh to Serbian to Bosniak.

Their unequivical recognition as the traditional land holders of that region by the Kosovo parliament is a precondition for any kind of recognition.

[Delodephius]

Here is map that shows my stance towards states:







Etc.

I.E. I don't respect territorial integrity of any state.

[Delodephius]

A natural language is the one which has no written standard, in other words, has no rules beyond the wish of its speaker/s. An artificial language is one which has set rules to which speakers must accommodate and not vice versa.

If I'm not mistaken, the language of Bitola and some place else was chosen to be the standard language of Macedonia. It was chosen for practical purposes because speakers from Tetovo in the north and those of Voden in the south (just examples) could understand it even though their dialects are much further from one another, as it should be in a language continuum. But speakers from Tetovo can understand speakers from southern Serbia much better than the dialects of Voden, which like their language is considered a Macedonian dialect, yet the closer to them language of southern Serbia is not. Why? I'll tell you why. Because natural languages don't give a damn about politics. Macedonian, Serbian, Bulgarian, these are all languages born out of politics. They are based on natural languages but they are artificial and are nurtured as such. Imagine if people wrote and spoke in their own language and not use the standard. Yes, there would be a far lesser rate of understanding each other, but why not use then just one standard language instead of hundreds around the world? Why? I'll tell you why: because of politics, that's why. Each lord has in his domain a language with which he controls his subjects so that they would consider themselves different from their neighbours and ensure that they will be more loyal to him. That is how nationalism was born. Nationalism was created by individuals seeking power, not peoples who sought freedom from monarchs and tyrants. These individuals sought power and if it meant creating something so artificial as a nation, then so be it. To ordinary people they might seem as heroes and some of them even might have been. But were these true heroes nationalists or humanists? Were they fighting for power and domination or for freedom of people, no matter who these people were? And once a realm is created, the people need to be united so as not to be swayed away by other realms against their masters. Politics>nationalism>national language standard. One language = one people. Such effective propaganda. Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, all speak the same language, but if they each call it their own name, it sounds as if it belongs just to them, that they are more unique, and if they are unique plus flamed in anger against those which were portrait as different from them, the people become a tool in the hands of power seekers. And that is what happened in Yugoslavia.

[Risto the Great]

All agreeable stuff.
But how would we define a "Natural Language"?
The obvious continuum is confirmation that no language is the "correct" one ... but merely it is what it is.

[Delodephius]

This is a colour continuum:

Now languages, and particularly Slavic languages, exist in a language continuum. On the picture none of the dots from which the picture is made are of the exact same colour as any of it's neighbouring dots. They are however quite similar. But as one moves in any direction, the dots that are further away from the starting dot are more and more different. This is how Slavic languages are also spread geographically. You can only put political borders on them, not lingual. Each dialect is a bit different from the other and the third dialect is even more different from the first one. Where does one set a border then? One shouldn't, but people do anyway. To me, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Serbian, etc. do not exist as natural languages. They are artificial ones, and they are extremely arrogant because they have the audacity to call the true natural languages as mere dialects and cherry pick those who they think deserve to be theirs. But they get into fight over some of these natural languages which number in hundreds, and fight over them like vultures over a dead corpse. And the natural languages wither away while new ones are born only to be killed later on by ignorant humans. And at times, one language is chosen to be a standard language and it too will try to destroy the natural languages.

[Risto the Great]

Osiris makes a point, they would have been educated in Serbian. Surely this would have influence.I noticed no definite articles, but in some instances it was almost inferred. Interesting stuff nevertheless.

[Delodephius]

Do you know what a language continuum is?

[osiris]

gee slovak to me they sounded like macedonians who were every now and then lapsing into serbiansims, something they most likely picked up form school. given most would have been schooled in serbian.

[Delodephius]

They do not use definite articles at the ends of nouns or verbs. After all, nearly all of south-eastern Serbia does not use cases. To me, they sound like Serbs much more than Macedonians and even more than Bulgarians. I of course oppose to any kind of -isms except Goranism. We should support that. Macedonia is not the answer.

[Risto the Great]

Fair enough, but if they want to identify as Macedonians because of the abovementioned common ties, then this is not a problem, given the connected history of the past. I appeciate your opinion Slovak and I know your view on nations, you hate them all but at the end of the day the decision lies with them.

I found them quite easy to understand.
And am sure they would embrace Macedonism if they were given support to celebrate their identity. But I support their distinct identity which has taken them 600 years to define.