Usage of Old Slavonic and Church Slavonic

[George S.]

Slovak the macedonian alphabet was that simply made up by cyril & methodius or did they derive antything from the ancient macedonian alphabet & language.They just didn't create an alphabet out of thin air.Something must have been preserved & used from the ancient macedonian.There must be something left to attest to that.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't want to get into any kind of nationalistically flavoured debate, but yes, I do not believe there was such thing as a Macedonian ethnicity or nationality from about the beginning of the 1st millennium AD until the 18-19th century.......

Then you'd be wrong. And if it isn't an interest of yours you should refrain from engaging in such discussions and stick to those where your opinion carries more weight.

.......also the concept of being a Macedonian two thousand years ago was completely different than the modern one.

This conversation is becoming a little semantical with only half-truths being expressed. I can easily come back and argue that they weren't "completely different" with reasons to support my assertion, but again, if you have no interest in this area then best not to respond to it.

Slovak, one of things I have always respected about you is your objective take on things. I can appreciate your dislike for 'nationalisms', but you need to understand that while certain factors may not be important to you as a non-Macedonian, they are to us as Macedonians. And no amount of objective approaches can dispute certain facts which tie the Macedonians today to their ancestral heritage from the middle ages and antiquity.

[Delodephius]

You stated earlier the alphabet was created in Bulgaria. You then stated "both places seem possible". For someone so committed to historical analysis, it sounds vague and appears to be nothing more than an anti-Macedonian agenda.

The entire case is vague. There is no firm evidence it was created in Bulgaria, but it is generally accepted. I have not done a research on the subject because I focused on the origin of the Glagolitic alphabet of which I know a far greater deal.

Slovak the macedonian alphabet was that simply made up by cyril & methodius or did they derive antything from the ancient macedonian alphabet & language.They just didn't create an alphabet out of thin air.Something must have been preserved & used from the ancient macedonian.There must be something left to attest to that.

Well first of all there are several scripts that were created out nothing, like the Jurchen script, the Cherokee syllabary, both the Armenian and Georgian alphabets, etc. They however had a model to look up to as a point of reference. Glagolitic was based on decorative minuscule Greek, with some letters being created based on religious iconography. For example H and R are made to look as the hand gesture of Christ,



while I and S appear as two fishes, a reference to Jesus.



If anyone is interested in the origin of the Glagolitic alphabet, there is a very interesting book in Croatian written by a Slavist professor Slavomir Sambunjak called "The Gramathosophy of Constantine the Philosopher" (Gramatozofija Konstantine Filozofa).

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When you say the Ancient Macedonian alphabet, what do you exactly mean? The Rosetta Stone?

[Delodephius]

But I also accept modern Macedonians have far more to do with Kiril & Metodi than any Greek or in fact Bulgarians do.

Well they were Macedonians by origin, it is a bit curious that this is not mentioned anywhere. Even in their biographies. When Constantine was a child he was sent to school to Constantinople, as a young adult he was sent to Mesopotamia and to Khazaria, he spent most of his time in Constantinople in school or stayed with his brother Methodius, who after leaving his job as an official in Macedonia left for a monastery on Mount Olympus in Asia Minor (yes, there are three actually) and changed his name from Michael to Methodius. There they created the Glagolitic alphabet, were sent to Bulgaria, then Pannonia, Moravia, Italy. Constantine died in Rome and is buried there, Methodius went back to Moravia and died in his 70's. Basically, they spent most of their lives among other people and other lands than among Macedonians or in Macedonia, of which there is no mention, neither in Old Slavonic texts nor in Greek or Latin ones describing the events of their lives. What does that mean? I'm not saying they were not Macedonians, they obviously were in a certain sense. But I'm given the impression that that was a part of their identity that was unimportant, as it only had a regional sense, not an ethnic one.

[makedonche]

All that is known is that Constantine's (Cyril's) and Michael's (Methodius') father was named Leo (Львъ) and that he was an administrator in Solun.

Slovak
That's all you might know, but that is definitely not all that is known!
For you your information their mother was "Marija", more information to follow, but please refrain form making comments about Macedonians without getting your facts straight - as a matter of course you may want to ask the Macedonians first before you go listening to anybody else and quote what they say.

[makedonche]

The entire case is vague. There is no firm evidence it was created in Bulgaria, but it is generally accepted. I have not done a research on the subject because I focused on the origin of the Glagolitic alphabet of which I know a far greater deal.

Yet another theory that will be tested!

[makedonche]

Slovak/Anomaly/tomas

[QUOTEGlagolitic was based on decorative minuscule Greek, with some letters being created based on religious iconography][/QUOTE]

This isn't even a theory worth testing - it is just plain wrong!

[Soldier of Macedon]

I'm not saying they were not Macedonians, they obviously were in a certain sense. But I'm given the impression that that was a part of their identity that was unimportant, as it only had a regional sense, not an ethnic one.

It didn't just have a regional sense. And the name Macedonia (officially within the context of East Rome) was also applied to a region east of Macedonia proper, ie; western Thrace, with a population identified as Macedonian that spoke Slavonic, from the beginning of the 9th century AD. This most likely came as a result of Macedonian groups moving east to seek opportunities within the borders of East Rome and/or avoid the 'troubles' that were commonplace in the enclaves known as 'Sclavinae'. Although there are no contemporary records that speak of Cyril and Methodius as Macedonians, the fact that they were Christians and natives from Macedonia who spoke the 'parent language' from which modern Macedonian derived and that there is cultural reference and continuity is beyond doubt. Consequently, they have more in common with today's Macedonians than any other ethno-national group in the Balkans.

They are our ancestors, it is the logical conclusion, and anybody that argues otherwise is either ignorant, misguided or trying to further an anti-Macedonian agenda. If you are indifferent as you say, you should not comment on it, as it can be perceived otherwise.

Glagolitic was based on decorative minuscule Greek, with some letters being created based on religious iconography.

How much of it actually resembles Greek and can be confirmed without a doubt?

[Delodephius]

Sorry SoM, I'm just not in the mood right now. I'll respond in a few weeks.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No problem mate, look forward to your response.