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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #16
    Originally posted by Slovak
    Although majority of the oldest OCS texts have Southern Slavic features, it is theorized that when Constantine and Methodius got to Great Moravia they tried to accommodate the language to the locals' speech as much as possible, and in a way this gave birth to OCS as we know it.
    Slovak, can you give us some examples of the two and how they differ, I am keen to see them. Most of the older texts are written in Glagolica, is this correct?

    In accordance with the research you have done into this subject, what is your opinion with regard to where the first Church Slavonic texts were written, and where the Glagolica and latter Kirilica letters were composed?


    Originally posted by Risto the Great
    Do you think there is any chance that Old Church Slavonic was not written in the local vernacular.? Rather, it may have been written for broader comprehension throughout Europe.
    I will have to agree with Struja, I think the idea has merit, but I would suggest that OCS was based on (a dialect of) Macedonian which featured added characteristics to suit the broader Slavic group.

    The aim of enlightening just the Moravians via OCS seems to be narrow in the greater scheme of things, I don't believe that Constantine and Methodius went to all that trouble just to stop at Moravia, nor were they ignorant of the fact that Slavic-speaking people lived from Macedonia to Moravia to Russia, so the likelihood of OCS becoming attractive to the other (and greater) parts of the Slavic (linguistic) sea in Europe would have been a reality at the time. My opinion anyway.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • makedonin
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1668

      #17
      OSC was created to preserve Christianity which was of East Roman interest. The East Roman empire fundamentals were in the Christianity. The hard part for the Christianity to spread or maintain was the language i.e.Byzantine Koine.

      The Moravian mission had a goal to stop the spreading of the Germanic i.e. Katolic down to East Roman borders.

      Since the Bulgarians were allies with the Bavarians of the time, the natural thing to do was to somehow stop the progress of the Germanic influence through the Katolik church among the Slavs of Moravia and the region and create a gap between Bulgarian influenced lands and Germanic ruled lands.

      The fact that Byzantines were able to look in such global perspective, could support Struja's hypothesis that the OSC was created with more general purpose.
      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

      Comment

      • Delodephius
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 736

        #18
        The humble mission of Constantine and Methodius that was later turned as the greatest mission of all times by later Slavonic priests. If their goal was to create a common language for communication throughout Eastern Europe, then they sure fooled most people. They spent their whole time in Great Moravia. The later spread of OCS into Bulgaria and Russia was after the death of Methodius and when most of their students were killed, tortured or exiled out of Moravia by the German clergy. Their whole mission in the first place was not to convert Slavs to Christianity, but to bring them under the wing of the Eastern Church. Until the end of the 8th century what is not Serbia and Macedonia was under the Western Church and if the Byzantines didn't take over y'all would be Catholics now. The aim of the mission into Moravia was political in nature and that was its main purpose. The rest of the Slavic world as I mentioned was Pagan and the chance of it becoming Christian at that time was thin. It took two hundred more years to convert the Poles and the Russians.
        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

        Comment

        • El Bre
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 713

          #19
          Until the end of the 8th century what is not Serbia and Macedonia was under the Western Church and if the Byzantines didn't take over y'all would be Catholics now.
          In retrospect, this probably would have been a good thing.

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            #20
            Slovak, can you give us some examples of the two and how they differ, I am keen to see them. Most of the older texts are written in Glagolitic, is this correct?

            In accordance with the research you have done into this subject, what is your opinion with regard to where the first Old Church Slavonic texts were written, and where the Glagolitic and latter Cyrillic letters were composed?
            OCS / Great Moravian / English
            cirǔky / cǐrky / church
            kružǐ, križǐ / krǐstǔ / cross
            rasponǔ, raspętie / propętie / crucifix
            raspęti / propęti / to crucify
            wǐšǐ / wǐsǐ / all
            otǔpustiti / ostaviti / to forgive, to let go
            raditi, roditi / bræšti, pešti sę / to take care of
            rozumǔ / razumǔ / mind
            nocǐ / noštǐ / night
            pica / pišta / food
            pomocǐ / pomoštǐ / help
            rozǐstwo / roždǐstwo / birth
            widæti / widæti / to see
            očiščenie / očištenije / cleaning
            zaščititi / zaštititi / to protect
            sǫdišče / sǫdište / court
            mydło / myło / soap
            modliti sę / moliti sę / to pray
            wǔsedĺena / wǔseĺenaæ / universe

            Great Moravian also used words and expressions of the Western Rite that were present in the language before the arrival of the brothers. The two then had to accommodate their language to that of Great Moravia, because they used words of the Eastern Rite or their translations.
            Such words used in Great Moravia were: mǐšæ, opłatǔ, wǔsǫdǔ, papežǔ, poganǐskǔ, præfaciæ.

            There are only three copies of the Glagolitic manuscripts that contain the Four Gospels. The Glagolitic texts are older than the Cyrillic ones. The Glagolitic script was most likely composed by the two brothers or their students while they resided at the Olympian monastery in Bithynia (in Asia Minor). The Cyrillic alphabet was not used in Great Moravia and the manuscripts that originate from there are all either in Glagolitic, while a small number are in Latin, like the Freising manuscripts which show Slovenian features (northen parts of Slovenia and parts of Austria were under Great Moravian rule at that time; the original Freising manuscripts are actually older than the mission of Constantine and Methodius). The Cyrillic script originated in Bulgaria and Macedonia after the exile of Slavonic clergy from Great Moravia.
            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #21
              Originally posted by Slovak
              If their goal was to create a common language for communication throughout Eastern Europe, then they sure fooled most people.
              Who did they fool Slovak, Rastislav and the Moravians? Or did they fool the Romans after pleading their case for Slavonic to be respected on par with Hebrew, Greek and Latin as a language of the Christian Church? All of this effort just for a political motive and humble Moravia? I don't think so.
              Their whole mission in the first place was not to convert Slavs to Christianity, but to bring them under the wing of the Eastern Church.
              They translated the Bible and religious texts. For all intents and purposes, their mission was to convert non-Christian Slavs to Christianity and provide them literacy in a language they could understand, while at the same time bringing them under the sway of Constantinople. This turned out the be the perfect alternative to the foreign Greek and Latin tongues.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Delodephius
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 736

                #22
                For all intents and purposes, their mission was to convert non-Christian Slavs to Christianity
                The Slavs of Moravia were already Christian and had translations of prayers and liturgies from Latin. Freising manuscript is one such remain. And most religious terminology in use was of Latin Old High German origin and not Greek. The only larger group of Pagans that were under the rule of Great Moravia were to the west in Bohemia and missions were sent there to convert them.
                Last edited by Delodephius; 05-08-2009, 12:39 PM.
                अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #23
                  Originally posted by SoM
                  ...........and provide them literacy in a language they could understand.
                  As was initially requested by Rastislav.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Delodephius
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 736

                    #24
                    Yes, but that doesn't mean they weren't already Christian. They only had trouble with a foreign language.
                    Plus, the main reason Methodius went was to enforce Byzantine law in Great Moravia. That was one of Rastislav's request, to send them a man knowing the secular law. There are copies of Methodius translations of the East Roman law books (Eclogue of Leo III the Isaurian and Constantine V Copronymus). Constantine was sent to translate the sacral texts but he in fact then finished Methodius' translations in a coherent whole.
                    Last edited by Delodephius; 05-08-2009, 09:06 PM.
                    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                      Plus, the main reason Methodius went was to enforce Byzantine law in Great Moravia. That was one of Rastislav's request, to send them a man knowing the secular law.
                      So in your opinion, it was more important for Rastislav to change from West to East Roman law, rather than having somebody provide them teachers and books in a language his simple Slavic folk could understand? I believe that Rastislav could see the potential in such a mission by the brothers as more than just the introduction of secular law, but also as the opportunity to break the shackles of foreign domination in church and liturgical affairs by using a language they could understand as a primary.

                      If Methodius' only aim during the mission was to enforce East Roman law, the subsequent events that took place would not have taken place. Michael III may have seen it from a purely political viewpoint, but I don't believe that is the case with the brothers and their students.

                      Here is part of the transliteration that you and I worked on, together with Coolski/Bushav.

                      Moravian guests in East Roman Empire speaking on behalf of their ruler Rastislav, aimed at Emperor Michael III:
                      ........jако божиjеjу милостиjу съдрави jесмь и суть въ ни въшьли учителе мнози крьстиjани из Влахъ и из Грькъ и из Наемьць, учаште ни различь, а ми Словаени проста чадь и не имамь, иже би ни наставилъ на истину и разумъ съказалъ. то добраеи владико, посъли такъ мужь, иже ни исправить вьсеку правьду.
                      Emperor Michael III to Constantine (Cyril), who was in his presence:
                      слишиши ли, философе, раечь сиjу? инъ сего да не можетъ сътворити развае тебе. тае на ти дари мнози и поимъ братъ свои игуменъ Мефедии иди же. ви бо jеста Селуненина, да Селунене вьси чьсто словаењски бесаедуjуть.
                      I interpret the above as Rastislav saying that they have been sent various foreign teachers who speak foreign languages, but his simple Slavic folk don't have anybody of their own. Michael's immediate response is telling, as he turns straight towards Constantine and makes reference to his native city and the prevalent language in it, which is Slavonic. Political opportunism on Michael's behalf? Quite probable. Political opportunism on Constantine's behalf? Unlikely. He went to alot of trouble not for politics, but for the promotion of the Slavonic tongue, this cannot be disputed, if it was just political he would not have went all the way to Rome to seek approval and justify his case in the famous manner that he did.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Delodephius
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 736

                        #26
                        So in your opinion, it was more important for Rastislav to change from West to East Roman law, rather than having somebody provide them teachers and books in a language his simple Slavic folk could understand? I believe that Rastislav could see the potential in such a mission by the brothers as more than just the introduction of secular law, but also as the opportunity to break the shackles of foreign domination in church and liturgical affairs by using a language they could understand as a primary.
                        Yes but, except the Bible all other necessary religious texts were already translated from Latin, Italian and German, like the Lord's Prayer and the Credo.

                        Rastislav demanded at least three things, all of which were already partially done in Great Moravia by him and his predecessors. Before sending a letter to Constantinople Rastislav himself was first in Rome to ask for the same things where he wasn't successful: 1. teachers to educate local clergy (Constantine); 2. men knowledgeable in secular law (Methodius); 3. translator for religious texts in a familiar language (both of the brothers). Rastislav wanted to make his state more self-sufficient and for this he need local men trained both in sacral and secular matters to counter the offensive German expansion into his kingdom (which stopped during Svetopluk's time, but by his better mastery of the sword than at a negotiations table). Methodius was also councillor in military matters being a former strategos.
                        We also must not forget that the brothers were also at the court of the Panonian duke Kocel and opened schools there as well.

                        All of Rastislav's work was mostly in vain since under Svetopluk the new German clergy exiled all of the Slavonic clergy, those which were not kill, and the Slavonic language was expelled out of Great Moravia's churches, apart from few forgotten monasteries.
                        Last edited by Delodephius; 05-10-2009, 08:02 PM.
                        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                        Comment

                        • DedoAleko
                          Member
                          • Jun 2009
                          • 969

                          #27
                          Check this out!



                          Shield (Scutum) Paint on Wood and Rawhide, H. 105.5 cm, W. 41.0 cm, D. 30.0 cm From Tower 19, Dura-Europos, mid-3rd century CE Yale University Art Gallery, Yale-French Excavations at Dura-Europos: 1933.715 Photography © 2011 Yale University Art Gallery

                          LINK FROM THE WHOLE ARTICLE

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