The Illyrians

[Bill77]

Hahaha,one of my personal favorite scenes of all-time (I'm a big Python fan).




"All right,let's call it a draw"

ROFL

That's the scene...

[Constellation]

Hahaha,one of my personal favorite scenes of all-time (I'm a big Python fan).




"All right,let's call it a draw"

Dragan, of all the members of this forum, you are without a doubt one of the most obtuse. Let me see if I understand you correctly. You apparently believe the historicity of the Slavic Migration Theory, the very thing Alinei rejects, and yet here you are again making absurd comments.

Are you again questioning the Slavic migration theory?

Well, what do you believe precious? And if you believe this theory, why are you in this thread in support of someone who does not?

[Bill77]

Constellation......

Dragan is just responding to my quote re movie scene I mentioned. Take a chill pill mate.
Stop being a "DUNDA"........ask me if you need help on what a Macedonian word DUNDA is

[Constellation]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That's all mine was in that thread you mentioned, just my thoughts. I was just putting up an alternative perspective and would be more than happy to be corrected which I would then move on.

Oh.....And atleast we can now both agree that there are more important subjects.....unlike some of the worthless threads you start such as the "who were the sons of Javan" thread.

But you my man......remind me of that scene from the Monty Python movie "The Holy Grail" where the Dark knight looses one by one, his arms and legs and just dosen't concede no matter how incapacitated he is. It's clear Sovius and yourself are way apart on intellectual levels and by entirely relying on and harping on about what he said....she said and you don't use free thinking, shows how debilitated you are.

Anyway carry on.........it's just another opinion of mine.

Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, including you Bill. I may have started worthless threads, but you obviously felt the need to contribute to at least one of them. Obviously, since I am so cunning, and since I am using the Bible when it only suits my needs, you decided to set the record straight. Oh. wait, you didn't actually do that. I'm still waiting for your brilliant analysis.

Yes, it is very clear Sovius and I are "way apart on intellectual levels". Clearly, Sovius is a brilliant independent thinker because the source of his knowledge is original...oh wait, it actually isn't. Clearly, I am not able to think on my own, because despite having a Ph.D in Slavic languages, I cannot make a definite pronouncement that Slavic originated in the Balkans based on linguistic analysis. And clearly, despite Sovius' whole argument thus far has been one quote from Alinei, it is clear that his argument is hitherto the superior one.

Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following the traditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved also the Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there has been a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards.

However, I would point out for the record, Bill, that all scientific evidence clearly indicates that the northern and southern Slavs are genetically distant peoples, and that it appears based on this science, that northern Slavs intermixed with Balkan people and contributed to the gene pool of Balkan people.

If Alinei's thesis that "it must have proceeded from South northwards" is correct, then there should be some evidence of this: archeological, historic, and genetic.

If Slavic originated in the south, which I again I believe is plausible, it would have to follow this language would migrate north. Yet no geneticist has evidence of this, There is no archeological evidence. And there is no historic evidence. Which would only mean if the thesis is true, only the language and possibly small packets of individuals mixed with northern Slavs.

[Sovius]

No pun intended, but I'm going to go out on a limb and side with Bill on this one, PhD or not.

From the same paper:

Even more so since the cause of this asymmetry is quite well-known, and explicitly stated in all handbooks for first-year students of Slavic: Northern Slavic does not form a single unit, but each of its two branchings – the Western and the Eastern – shares different features with Southern Slavic.

Citation Number 3:

In more general terms, Mallory admits that “A long geographical stasis for the Slavs [...] is probably the model that would be most readily accepted by linguists who see in the Slavic language group little reason to assume that they have moved much since their development from Proto-Indo- European” (Mallory 1989, 81)2.

Doctor J.P. Mallory is Professor Emeritus at Queen's University in Belfast, if memory serves.


As of 2010 there were approximately 5,379 linguists in the world according to some guy who actually took the time to count every single one of these folks, without using a calculator or even his fingers, I might add. 1989 was prior to the developments that have occurred in the field of population genetics. A small minority? An implied "controversial" notion? A PhD no less?


Let's just move on.

Exhibit 1:

Southeastern European R1a

Anatole Klyosov


"The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp. It is
unknown whether R1a1 appeared in the Balkans presumably from R1 or R1a or
arrived from a yet unknown location. It was found that haplogroup R1b
appeared from R1 about 16,000 years bp apparently in Asia. "

http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf

Let's move forward a few years:

Exhibit 2:

New Evidence Regarding theMiddle Eastern origins of R1a


Abstract

R1a-M420 is one of the most widely spread Y-chromosome haplogroups; however, its substructure within Europe and Asia has remained poorly characterized. Using a panel of 16244 male subjects from 126 populations sampled across Eurasia, we identified 2923 R1a-M420 Y-chromosomes and analyzed them to a highly granular phylogeographic resolution. Whole Y-chromosome sequence analysis of eight R1a and five R1b individuals suggests a divergence time of ~25000 (95%*CI: 21300–29000) years ago and a coalescence time within R1a-M417 of ~5800 (95%*CI: 4800–6800) years. The spatial frequency distributions of R1a sub-haplogroups conclusively indicate two major groups, one found primarily in Europe and the other confined to Central and South Asia. Beyond the major European versus Asian dichotomy, we describe several younger sub-haplogroups. Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg201450a.html

Exhibit 3:

Let's move forward a few eons away from Exhibit 2.


Ancient DNA, Strontium isotopes, and osteological analyses shed light on social and kinship organization of the Later Stone Age

Abstract

In 2005 four outstanding multiple burials were discovered near Eulau, Germany. The 4,600-year-old graves contained groups of adults and children buried facing each other. Skeletal and artifactual evidence and the simultaneous interment of the individuals suggest the supposed families fell victim to a violent event. In a multidisciplinary approach, archaeological, anthropological, geochemical (radiogenic isotopes), and molecular genetic (ancient DNA) methods were applied to these unique burials. Using autosomal, mitochondrial, and Y-chromosomal markers, we identified genetic kinship among the individuals. A direct child-parent relationship was detected in one burial, providing the oldest molecular genetic evidence of a nuclear family. Strontium isotope analyses point to different origins for males and children versus females. By this approach, we gain insight into a Late Stone Age society, which appears to have been exogamous and patrilocal, and in which genetic kinship seems to be a focal point of social organization.


"The consensus haplotype of the three individuals (based on most complete profile) gave two exact matches in an European population sample of 11,213 haplotypes in a set of 100 populations (as of July 2008, Release ‘‘23’’ from 2008–01-15 ): one individual from Poland (1/939 from Gdansk) and one from Russia (1/48 from Tambov)."

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2008/11/17/0807592105.abstract

Summarization of Evidence:

The Corded ware R1a still has matches from people who continue to live in Russia and Poland. That means they are of direct descent. Most Germans by virtue of exhibited population continuity were a "Slavic" speaking people who adopted a "Germanic" language after years of Frankish ethnic cleansing and political subjugation (look up Wendish Crusade). Central European R1a subclades represent descendent subclades of Southeastern European bearers of R1a. Southeastern European R1a was collected from living, breathing Southeastern European individuals whose ancestors followed the retreat of the Last major Ice Age North and became my ancestors.

I'll leave it you to study which culture was ancestral to Corded Ware culture since you're not really contributing anything of value to this discussion, but if you follow the migration paths of populations carrying Haplogroup I2a who have also been dug up in the region out of their source region in Illyria, it might prove insightful. They made it all the way to Western Europe and Scandinavia alongside people carrying R1a and other haplogroups.


I have heard stories of sinister experiments being conducted by the Greek Nationalist Institute of Nationalist Greek Science where they were transferring the brains of Greek Nationalists into the larger cavities of Macedonians and sending them out on secret missions.

[Constellation]

No pun intended, but I'm going to go out on a limb and side with Bill on this one, PhD or not.

I do not have a PhD in Slavic. I was being sardonic. You are free to think as you will; however, I would advise you to behave in a more gentleman fashion, and refrain from silly attacks.

From the same paper:

Even more so since the cause of this asymmetry is quite well-known, and explicitly stated in all handbooks for first-year students of Slavic: Northern Slavic does not form a single unit, but each of its two branchings – the Western and the Eastern – shares different features with Southern Slavic.

Citation Number 3:

In more general terms, Mallory admits that “A long geographical stasis for the Slavs [...] is probably the model that would be most readily accepted by linguists who see in the Slavic language group little reason to assume that they have moved much since their development from Proto-Indo- European” (Mallory 1989, 81)2.

Doctor J.P. Mallory is Professor Emeritus at Queen's University in Belfast, if memory serves.

As of 2010 there were approximately 5,379 linguists in the world according to some guy who actually took the time to count every single one of these folks, without using a calculator or even his fingers, I might add. 1989 was prior to the developments that have occurred in the field of population genetics. A small minority? An implied "controversial" notion? A PhD no less?

I actually contacted a number of professors of prominent University Slavic studies about this. I will wait to hear from them (if they respond). I made sure to phrase my question to specifically to address the linguistic aspect of the question.

For the record, I will state two things:

1. I am not adverse to the theory that a language family now known as Slavic originated in the Balkans. As I have stated in other threads, long before I began this discourse, I used to believe it was true. Presently, I am not so sure. It seems plausible. However, I am not a linguistic scholar, let alone a Slavic linguistic scholar, and I do not believe it is an immutable fact. If and when I hear something, I will publish it on the forum.

2. In academia, you cannot merely quote from one source, a minority interpretation of a controversial linguistic analysis, and use that as the basis of a whole argument. It just does not fly. You should know better Sovius.

Let's just move on.

Exhibit 1:

Southeastern European R1a

Anatole Klyosov


"The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp. It is
unknown whether R1a1 appeared in the Balkans presumably from R1 or R1a or
arrived from a yet unknown location. It was found that haplogroup R1b
appeared from R1 about 16,000 years bp apparently in Asia. "

http://precedings.nature.com/documen...20082733-1.pdf

The first bearers of R1a haplogroup did not live in the Balkans.

The preceding article in this journal (Klyosov & Rozhanskii,
2012) provided data in support of the theory that haplogroup
R1a arose in Central Asia around 20,000 years before the pre-
sent (ybp), and described the prior history of the haplogroup,
which is directly related to the appearance of Europeoids (Cau-
casoids) ~58,000 years ago.

At some point, apparently between 20 and 15 thousand ybp,
the bearers of R1a began a migration to the west, through Tibet
and over the Himalayas. They arrived in Hindustan no later
than 12,000 ybp. They apparently continued their way across
the Iranian Plateau, along East Anatolia and the rest of Asia
Minor between 10,000 and 9000 ybp. By ~9000 ybp they ar-
rived in the Balkans and spread westward over Europe and to
the British Isles.

https://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownload.aspx?paperID=21698

In the study you cite Klyosov phrases the subtitle with a question mark:

The Balkan ancient branch: the oldest trace of R1a1 haplogroup?

This is a theory, a minority held theory, and not widely accepted.

Haplogroup R1a probably branched off from R1* during or soon after the Last Glacial Maxium. Little is know for certain about its place of origin. Some think it might have originated in the Balkans or around Pakistan and Northwest India, due to the greater genetic diversity found in these regions. The diversity can be explained by other factors though. The Balkans have been subject to 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian Steppes, each bringing new varieties of R1a. South Asia has had a much bigger population than any other parts of the world (occasionally equalled by China) for at least 10,000 years, and larger population bring about more genetic diversity. The most likely place of origin of R1a is Central Asia or southern Russia/Siberia.

Again:

Some people have theorized that R1a was one of the lineages of the Neolithic farmers, and would have entered Europe through Anatolia, then spread across the Balkans toward Central Europe, then only to Eastern Europe. There are many issues with this scenario. The first is that 99% of modern R1a descends from R1a1a (M417), a subclade that clearly expanded from the Bronze Age onwards, not from the early Neolithic. Its phylogeny also points at an Eastern European origin. Secondly, most of the R1a in Middle East are deep subclades of the R1a-Z93 branch, which originated in Russia (see below). It could not have been ancestral to Balkanic or Central European R1a. Thirdly, there is a very strong correlation between the Northeast European autosomal admixture and R1a populations, and this component is missing from the genome of all European Neolithic farmers tested to date - even from Ötzi, who was a Chalcolithic farmer. This admixture is also missing from modern Sardinians, who are mostly descended from Neolithic farmers. This is incotrovertible evidence that R1a did not come to Europe with Neolithic farmers.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

And again...

Haplogroup R1a is found today across a large swathe of Asia and Europe and may have originated in South or Central Asia. R1a is most common among Pakistanis, Northern Indians, Russians, Ukrainians and the Kyrgyz and Altai peoples of Central Asia. In Europe R1a is the most common group in Slavic peoples and is also very common in Scandinavia. The presence of R1a in the British Isles is in the main due to Norse Viking ancestry, although Anglo-Saxons and Danes will have carried a smaller proportion there and there is a rare English-specific subgroup. It has been hypothesised that haplogroup R1a was carried to Europe by the Kurgan culture, who domesticated the horse.

http://www.bosniafacts.info/other/genetic-makeup-of-the-balkans

The consensus of scholarly data does not support the theory that the first bearers of R1a1 lived in the Balkans.

Let's move forward a few years:

Yes, please.

Exhibit 2:

New Evidence Regarding theMiddle Eastern origins of R1a

Abstract

R1a-M420 is one of the most widely spread Y-chromosome haplogroups; however, its substructure within Europe and Asia has remained poorly characterized. Using a panel of 16244 male subjects from 126 populations sampled across Eurasia, we identified 2923 R1a-M420 Y-chromosomes and analyzed them to a highly granular phylogeographic resolution. Whole Y-chromosome sequence analysis of eight R1a and five R1b individuals suggests a divergence time of ~25000 (95%*CI: 21300–29000) years ago and a coalescence time within R1a-M417 of ~5800 (95%*CI: 4800–6800) years. The spatial frequency distributions of R1a sub-haplogroups conclusively indicate two major groups, one found primarily in Europe and the other confined to Central and South Asia. Beyond the major European versus Asian dichotomy, we describe several younger sub-haplogroups. Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html

Even if R1a diversification likely occurred in Iran, and again it is debatable, it does not establish much. The authors concluded their study with:

However, our data do not enable us to
directly ascribe the patterns of R1a geographic spread to specific
prehistoric cultures or more recent demographic events.

thebigone.stanford.edu/papers/Underhill_phylogenetic_March-2014.pdf

The R1a subclades in northern Slavs, east and west, including central European Slavs, is very different than R1a-M420.

R1a-M458, primarily a Slavic subclade, with maximum frequencies in Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, but is also fairly common in southeast Ukraine and northwest Russia.

its subclade R1a-L260 is clearly West Slavic, with a peak of frequency in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and radiating at lower frequencies into East Germany, East Austria, Slovenia and Hungary.

R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans), with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.

its subclade R1a-L365 is a Pomeranian cluster found also in southern Poland.

Note the exception “Except in the Balkans”. There are many R1 a subclades, in very different regions, so this argument is moot.

Exhibit 3:

Let's move forward a few eons away from Exhibit 2.

Ancient DNA, Strontium isotopes, and osteological analyses shed light on social and kinship organization of the Later Stone Age

Abstract

In 2005 four outstanding multiple burials were discovered near Eulau, Germany. The 4,600-year-old graves contained groups of adults and children buried facing each other. Skeletal and artifactual evidence and the simultaneous interment of the individuals suggest the supposed families fell victim to a violent event. In a multidisciplinary approach, archaeological, anthropological, geochemical (radiogenic isotopes), and molecular genetic (ancient DNA) methods were applied to these unique burials. Using autosomal, mitochondrial, and Y-chromosomal markers, we identified genetic kinship among the individuals. A direct child-parent relationship was detected in one burial, providing the oldest molecular genetic evidence of a nuclear family. Strontium isotope analyses point to different origins for males and children versus females. By this approach, we gain insight into a Late Stone Age society, which appears to have been exogamous and patrilocal, and in which genetic kinship seems to be a focal point of social organization.

"The consensus haplotype of the three individuals (based on most complete profile) gave two exact matches in an European population sample of 11,213 haplotypes in a set of 100 populations (as of July 2008, Release ‘‘23’’ from 2008–01-15 ): one individual from Poland (1/939 from Gdansk) and one from Russia (1/48 from Tambov)."

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...92105.abstract

The above abstract is a very small sample, and does not establish much.

Summarization of Evidence:

The Corded ware R1a still has matches from people who continue to live in Russia and Poland. That means they are of direct descent. Most Germans by virtue of exhibited population continuity were a "Slavic" speaking people who adopted a "Germanic" language after years of Frankish ethnic cleansing and political subjugation (look up Wendish Crusade). Central European R1a subclades represent descendent subclades of Southeastern European bearers of R1a. Southeastern European R1a was collected from living, breathing Southeastern European individuals whose ancestors followed the retreat of the Last major Ice Age North and became my ancestors.

I'll leave it you to study which culture was ancestral to Corded Ware culture since you're not really contributing anything of value to this discussion, but if you follow the migration paths of populations carrying Haplogroup I2a who have also been dug up in the region out of their source region in Illyria, it might prove insightful. They made it all the way to Western Europe and Scandinavia alongside people carrying R1a and other haplogroups.

Thank you for the educational lesson Sovius, but I do not find your overall argument compelling or convincing. We are looking at largely the same data, but largely interpreting it differently.

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE) before it was swallowed by the Indo-European Corded Ware culture. This could mean that the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture was a native European group of hunter-gatherers who adopted farming after coming in contact (with perhaps some intermarriages) with the Middle Eastern farmers who settled in the Balkans (haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2b and T). After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan R1a around Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland during the Corded Ware period (2900-2400 BCE), then disseminated more uniformly across Proto-Slavic tribes during the Bronze and Iron Ages. After Germanic tribes living in eastern Germany and Poland, like the Goths, the Vandals and the Burgundians, invaded the Roman Empire, the Slavs from further east filled the vacuum. Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars.

I will repeat again the very obvious:

In 2007 Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland. The significant findings of this study are that:

Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.

However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "... contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs ..."

All human beings are related. Some more than others. Northern and southern Slavs are genetically distant – this is strong language. What we are at looking at is essentially very different peoples. We all agree that these peoples have intermixed in the past, and still do in the present, like all human beings, but the genetic distance between northern and southern Slavs is not close, and no research documents that it is.

[Risto the Great]

I have heard stories of sinister experiments being conducted by the Greek Nationalist Institute of Nationalist Greek Science where they were transferring the brains of Greek Nationalists into the larger cavities of Macedonians and sending them out on secret missions.

I see it all the time.

[Bill77]

Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, including you Bill.

Thank you for including me

you decided to set the record straight. Oh. wait, you didn't actually do that. I'm still waiting for your brilliant analysis.

I don't know what type of analysis you are expecting. I did give an opinion and the purpose of It wasn't (as you put it) to set the record straight. Just another possibility ....a theory that you can consider, then you can either appreciate it or lump it. Life moves on.

Please explain why you are still waiting........did you unintentionally miss my response?
My Christian friend.....you are blinded by anger (Wrath is a deadly sin) and need to calm down a bit. You demonstrate How easily it's to hurt your pride. Please take note Proverbs 11:2 "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom".
I'm also sure you are aware that Pride is a deadly sin?

Yes, it is very clear Sovius and I are "way apart on intellectual levels". Clearly, Sovius is a brilliant independent thinker because the source of his knowledge is original...oh wait, it actually isn't.

more sarcasm another sign of hurt pride. Also sense of jealousy in there. So now we have Wrath, Pride and Envy. That's three of the deadly sins.

There is nothing wrong with using sources to justify your reasonings, I'm not suggesting that. It's normal to read and present sources to show how one comes to a conclusion to how one formed an opinion rather than depend upon authority (decision makers) ie Scholars/Education system.

You my friend....are more obsessed with numbers (consensus) how many scholars suggest a certain line of thought...........rather than use free thought and determining what is fact and what is theory. Once upon a time the consensus was the world was flat. It took a free thinker to show how inaccurate it was. I'm sure there are many modern day examples of what once was thought to be true and was taught......which now no longer is fact.

Clearly, I am not able to think on my own, because despite having a Ph.D in Slavic languages, I cannot make a definite pronouncement that Slavic originated in the Balkans based on linguistic analysis.

More boasting? Hmmmm

And let's add deceitful.

My educational background is not in linguistics

Repent my friend......

[Sovius]

I do not have a PhD in Slavic. I was being sardonic.

Not in a million years would I have figured this out unless you told me. Are you related to Einstein? Sardonic isn't the word I would use, but OK. Sardinians are cool. You also do not care about the points I brought up or you would have addressed them with whatever knowledge you have on the subject. This is a well known tactic used by modern Greek anti-intellectualists.

I actually contacted a number of professors of prominent University Slavic studies about this. I will wait to hear from them (if they respond). I made sure to phrase my question to specifically to address the linguistic aspect of the question.

Make sure you contact a Pan-Slavist or a Pan-Germanic historical linguist who doesn't understand the significance of contemporary European genetic evidence in relation known and addressed geo-spatial extra-linguistic correspondences. You'll have a better chance of getting the answers that I believe you're looking for.

I am not adverse to the theory that a language family now known as Slavic originated in the Balkans. As I have stated in other threads, long before I began this discourse, I used to believe it was true. Presently, I am not so sure. It seems plausible. However, I am not a linguistic scholar, let alone a Slavic linguistic scholar, and I do not believe it is an immutable fact. If and when I hear something, I will publish it on the forum.

Very self-absorbed, this one. Yoda, you seek Yoda.

In academia, you cannot merely quote from one source, a minority interpretation of a controversial linguistic analysis, and use that as the basis of a whole argument. It just does not fly. You should know better Sovius.

Doctor Sergei Starostin produced the same hierarchical order. Your arrogance is betraying you. Or is that your _____? Please observe that I did not write stupidity in order to make this a more civilized discussion. Again, I am not here to convince you of anything, you already demonstrated your intentions when you started making posts on this site. I am simply providing evidence to demonstrate your lack of knowledge on a particular subject (make that subjects now). Is this more gentlemanly than referring to you as a trained monkey? Make sure you include Dr. Starostin's work in your phone calls. Two people who are both unfamiliar with the same thing will often wind up with the same erroneous understanding of it. (Confusievski 400 AD)

The first bearers of R1a haplogroup did not live in the Balkans.

Which is why I posted the 2nd paper. Please try to at least read or glance over some of the information I am not posting for your benefit.

This is a theory, a minority held theory, and not widely accepted.

An intolerance for minorities? Again, a common trait among modern Greek pretenders who like to come on this site making mischief.

The consensus of scholarly data does not support the theory that the first bearers of R1a1 lived in the Balkans.

Again, I believe that was made quite clear in the 2nd study I submitted. Again, do you need help constructing valid arguments against the evidence I have not presented for your benefit?

Even if R1a diversification likely occurred in Iran, and again it is debatable, it does not establish much. The authors concluded their study with:

Well then, why don't we move on back to Europe and see if we can't make sense of a few things?

The R1a subclades in northern Slavs, east and west, including central European Slavs, is very different than R1a-M420.


No kidding, so show me "The Slavs". You're working to validate your own previously held position with this one.

Note the exception “Except in the Balkans”. There are many R1 a subclades, in very different regions, so this argument is moot.*


Again, you're proving my points for me regarding the relevance of the Renaissance Period Model (no significant migrations from one direction or another or any real importance). Shouldn't all Macedonians be M458 if their ancestors got smacked down by "The Slavs"? This is one haplogroup that did originate from the North, but unfortunately, its ancestral haplogroups migrated North from the South, so we're back at square 1 and M458 is old enough to be considered to have potentially taken part in the attacks on Mycanaean civilization from North of the Danube. Perhaps, it is representative of both military campaigns or it is just some Polish guy that lives in Macedonia who likes to watch reruns of mid 20th Century Brazilian sitcoms on satellite TV, even though he doesn't even understand Portuguese?

The above abstract is a very small sample, and does not establish much.

I was hoping you would say that. This will be addressed momentarily.

Thank you for the educational lesson Sovius, but I do not find your overall argument compelling or convincing. We are looking at largely the same data, but largely interpreting it differently.*


This string of words provides evidence to support the view that English is not you're first language, yet you were born in America? I have seen this misuse of descriptors before in another thread. I could care less what you think. Again, I am only presenting evidence to demonstrate your intentions. The only way to counter the poison of a snake bite is to not get bit in the first place.

Northern and southern Slavs are genetically distant

You're like a clock everyday at 2:00 in the afternoon. Perhaps, you should account for the mutation chronology before you get all Morpheus-like on everyone. If "We Slavs" are genetically distant from one another than you have just disproven the Slavic Migration Myth in both directions. Thank you. You can now continue believing as you once did prior to not believing as you may have not considered before changing your mind.


Hypothesis:

Children often understand and respond to pictures better than verbal direction or re-direction. This may also be the case with Modern Greek nationalists posing as Macedonians relative to the written word in the Digital Age. If Europe's R1a mutational chronology were to be expressed visually and Constellation was provided with a sample of modern haplogroups still making their rounds amongst Modern Macedonians, could he finally come to understand the significance of sequential logic in relation to the R1a Haplogroup, as it has always existed amongst European populations before the dawn of recorded history? To help him feel more comfortable, only evidence available on Eupedia will be used so as not to discombobulate the whole experiment which has already cost Australian taxpayers 250 million Aussies (or whatever their currency is called (Kangarooderands?) before even going before the government pre-approval approvement advocacy bureaus Departments 1 through 9.



Macedonian Evidence Pool:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29061-Y-DNA-haplogroups-in-Macedonia

Pretty Picture: www.r1a.org

You already know that I want you to focus on M198, so focus on M198 and try and weasel your way out of this one so that we can continue on to further cementing the irrelevance of your posts while preserving the fact that you out of everyone else in the known universe has finally disproven both the Slavic migration and Slavic anti-migration theories.

[DraganOfStip]

Dragan, of all the members of this forum, you are without a doubt one of the most obtuse.

Thank you for sharing your opinion about me.
You could have written "dull","witless", or even "stupid" but you chose the more polite expression of "obtuse".I appreciate that.
Forgive me for not sharing my opinion about you,I don't know the polite versions of the words that come in mind.

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

No,you dont.You never do.Anyone on this forum.
All you ever do is twist someone's words to what suits you,or should I say you only read what you want and miss the big picture someone's presenting.
Starting numerous meaningless threads,making irrelevant claims,and even answering your own questions.If you already know the answer,why ask it in the first place?
And when faced with a challenge you only beat around the bush,start mumbling,and repeat the same stuff over and over again like a broken record.We've seen lots of those here.
Frankly,I don't even know what you're doing here.You're a total waste of time.

here you are again making absurd comments.

I was refering to a movie scene (and a great one if I may add) that Bill mentioned.Nothing else.No hidden intentions whatsoever.
Here's the whole sequence if you're interested:

Monty Python-The Black Knight - YouTube

[George S.]

he is waffling all over the place.

[Bill77]

I was refering to a movie scene (and a great one if I may add) that Bill mentioned.Nothing else.No hidden intentions whatsoever.
Here's the whole sequence if you're interested:

Monty Python-The Black Knight - YouTube

One of the greatest movie scene of all time. I can watch it over and over and laugh just as hard every time.

[George S.]

sovius are you inferring that con is on is on a secret mission???I think he is a subliminal zombie.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You've even skipped right past SoM's post.

Constellation, have you given it any thought?

[Sovius]

sovius are you inferring that con is on is on a secret mission???I think he is a subliminal zombie.

The possibility exists. He posted some excellent material on what was once labeled the E3b1 haplogroup, but has over-emphasized haplogroup frequencies amongst populations, while largely avoiding location specific subclade information, which could potentially help him paint whatever picture he wants with the data, leaving key information untethered. I've seen German nationalists attempt this strategy in the past while trying to claim Polish people are simply Slavicized Germans. A Greek nationalist could potentially do something similar, very low key, and people who don't have the time to deconstruct such arguments could get potentially suckered in to a shell game with out a stone.

Eupedia is also built around 19th Century Western European nationalist anachronistic ethno-linguistic re-classifications that did not exist during the Renaissance Period, Medieval Period or Europe's Ancient Period, having an unwarranted bias embedded into its narrative. The term Celt had a different meaning during the ancient period than the Victorian Period, for instance. This has allowed Victorian Model researchers to develop over-extended and unfounded conclusions. Irish and Scottish people were not known as Celts during the Ancient Period, but people still impose these misunderstandings on to the genetic information and come up with all sorts of nonsensical notions. Illyria was invaded by people from Germania, but they weren't proto-Scots and they weren't "Germanic".