The Illyrians

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  • Delodephius
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 736

    #61
    The Position of Albanian


    The genesis of the Balkan Peoples


    VIII. Albanians and Rumanians

    Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians, although there are no other data supporting such a claim. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.

    But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.

    Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.

    1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

    2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

    3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

    4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

    5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.

    6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:

    Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
    Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
    Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. luptǎ, Arum. luftǎ, Alb. luftë
    Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.

    7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazǎre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.
    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #62
      Originally posted by Epirus
      I ordered John Wilkes's book via amazon and now I can cite originally him.
      Good decision, for somebody like yourself who has a keen interest in the Illyrians, the book is a must-have.
      Wilkes position is that Albanian culture is an inheritance of several cultures, among whom were the Illyrians.
      And I agree with that position. But you see how that differs markedly to your previous suggestion that the majority of Albanian culture is Illyrian.
      Barthold Georg Niebuhr made a good analogy between Albanian "besa" and the Illyrian "oath of peace":
      Many tribal cultures have traits such as 'oaths', it could easily have been imported by one of the other cultural-linguistic groups that Albanians have inherited. I don't see a definitive Illyrian connection there, unless you can refer to some sort of citation from antiquity which speaks of something along similar lines?
      Of great importance in relating Illyrians with the Albanians is also the traditional customary law called 'Kanun':
      Again, the opinion of the author in the quote you cited is based his own presumption that the Illyrians were the direct precursors of the Albanians. The first quote from Wilkes that you provided disputes that. Thus, the examples of the 'besa' and the 'kanun', while being unique to Albanian, aren't exactly confirmed as being of Illyrian origin.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Valmir
        Banned
        • Sep 2011
        • 112

        #63
        And I agree with that position. But you see how that differs markedly to your previous suggestion that the majority of Albanian culture is Illyrian.
        there are Tons of Facts that Albanians are iLLyrians, Starting from Clothes,Songs,Language...Etc.
        Most of the illyrian kings have Names in Albanian language,for example Bardhylis, Bardh - White, Ylli - Star!
        It means WhiteStar in Albanian, this is so clear!
        Even the illyria in Albanian language means the peoples that are free!
        Iliret!

        Many tribal cultures have traits such as 'oaths', it could easily have been imported by one of the other cultural-linguistic groups that Albanians have inherited. I don't see a definitive Illyrian connection there, unless you can refer to some sort of citation from antiquity which speaks of something along similar lines?
        Let me give you a iLLyrian song called "Moj e bukura", You can find it in Youtube and listen it!
        The words of the song havent changes for hundred and hundred years!

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #64
          Originally posted by Valmir View Post
          there are Tons of Facts that Albanians are iLLyrians, Starting from Clothes,Songs,Language...Etc.
          Tons? I doubt it. Most of what you consider 'facts' is trivial or incorrect, or shared with other Balkan peoples.
          Most of the illyrian kings have Names in Albanian language........
          Most? I don't think so. Probably more in the vicinity of few to none. I also question the suggested etymologies for 'bardyllis' and 'illyria'.
          The words of the song havent changes for hundred and hundred years!
          So?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            #65
            I almost forgot I started making this site some time ago, but never finished it:
            Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).


            It's my own little project to sort out the problem of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin language. My solution is quite simple and it was proposed by many linguists and historians: call this language by the name it has been referred to for over a thousand years: Illyrian.


            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • Valmir
              Banned
              • Sep 2011
              • 112

              #66
              Tons? I doubt it. Most of what you consider 'facts' is trivial or incorrect, or shared with other Balkan peoples.
              Our CCulture is Pure Illyrian,and yes we shared our Culture with other Balcan Nations, Like Greeks,Macedonians,Slavs....
              One exmaple is Fustanella.

              So?
              So it means that we are iLLyrians,its a song that have been singed by iLLyrians and now by us!

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #67
                Originally posted by Delodephius View Post
                It's my own little project to sort out the problem of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin language. My solution is quite simple and it was proposed by many linguists and historians: call this language by the name it has been referred to for over a thousand years: Illyrian.
                That is the most logical and sensible name for it.
                Originally posted by Valmir
                Our CCulture is Pure Illyrian...........
                Yeah, ok. How many more times do we need to go around the same circle before you start producing something of substance?
                So it means that we are iLLyrians,its a song that have been singed by iLLyrians and now by us!
                What evidence is there that the Illyrians were singing this song? Or is this something else that you've conjured in your colourful imagination?
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Valmir
                  Banned
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 112

                  #68
                  That is the most logical and sensible name for it.
                  The most logical name for those languages is one,Slavic or Russian!
                  They speak almost the same language with Russians

                  What evidence is there that the Illyrians were singing this song? Or is this something else that you've conjured in your colourful imagination?
                  Illyrians were singing this song,we sing this song too!
                  And they singed that language in the same language as Albanians speak now!
                  I dont know how many more facts you want about Albanian iLLyrian origin

                  Comment

                  • Valmir
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2011
                    • 112

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Delodephius View Post
                    It's my own little project to sort out the problem of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin language. My solution is quite simple and it was proposed by many linguists and historians: call this language by the name it has been referred to for over a thousand years: Illyrian.
                    Hehehe, So Slavs(Russians) now are Illyrians?

                    Comment

                    • Delodephius
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 736

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Valmir View Post
                      Hehehe, So Slavs (Russians) now are Illyrians?


                      1670 – Pavao Ritter Vitezović, Lexicon Latino-Illyricum (a manuscript dictionary in which the author carried out in practice his views on the language and spelling).

                      1728 – Ardelio della Bella, Dizionario Italiano–Latino–Illirico (mainly based on Ragusan literary sources, but also includes Čakavian sources; supplemented by a short grammar of the Croatian language).
                      Adam Patačić, Dictionarium latino-illyricum et germanicum (manuscript dictionary).

                      1740 – Ivan Belostenec, Gazophylacium seu latino-illyricorum onomatum aerarium. (A Kajkavian based monumental dictionary of 50,000 entries)

                      1741 – Franjo Sušnik-Andrija Jambrešić, Lexicon latinum interpretatione illyrica, germanica et hungarica locu pies (the names "Croatian" and "Illyrian" are used synonymously).

                      1801 – Joakim Stulić, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum, Budim.

                      1802—03 – Josip Voltiggi, Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskoga i nimačkoga jezika (A dictionary of the Illyrian, Italian and German languages) (based on Ikavian; Jekavian forms are cited along with Ikavian; Ekavian forms refer to Ikavian).

                      1806 – Joakim Stulić, Rječosložje ilirsko-talijansko-latinsko (Illyrian—Italian—Latin dictionary), Dubrovnik.

                      1810 – Joakim Stulić, Vocabolario italiano-illirico-latino, Dubrovnik (the bulk of the dictionary was excerpted from published works of Ragusan writers, along with Dalmatian, Herzegovinian, Bosnian, Slavonian and Istrian sources. More than 80,000 words on 4,600 pages, excerpted from 120 authors).

                      1842 – Ivan Mažuranić and Josip Užarević, Njemačko—ilirski slovar (A German–Illyrian dictionary. First "truly modern" Croatian dictionary).

                      ---

                      First Croatian/Illyrian grammar:

                      Institutionum linguae illyricae libri duo ("The Structure of the Illyrian Language in Two Books"), Rome, 1604.

                      ---

                      The Illyrian Alphabet

                      Last edited by Delodephius; 09-19-2011, 06:12 PM.
                      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Valmir View Post
                        The most logical name for those languages is one,Slavic or Russian!
                        They speak almost the same language with Russians
                        They didn't get their language from the Russians, so the suggestion is expectedly uninformed. As for the term 'Slavic', it is only suitable for a linguistic group and not a specific language, so it has parallels in Latin, Germanic, Celtic, etc. What linguistic group does Albanian belong to? None. Or perhaps all. That is because it is one of the most bastardised languages in Europe. And you're going to blabber on about "pure" Illyrians? Please....
                        Illyrians were singing this song,we sing this song too.....I dont know how many more facts you want about Albanian iLLyrian origin
                        You haven't even provided any facts, all you've done is claim that some song that Albanians sing is Illyrian. What proof is there that the Illyrians sang this song? How many times do I need to ask you the same question? Start proving these assertions of yours or at least provide some sort of logical response, or stop trolling on the forum.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #72
                          Some of you may recall a show called Quantum Leap, the main actor was a guy called Scott Bakula. I found his surname interesting and after a brief search I found that he is of Croatian descent. I searched the origin of the name and found that it has a meaning in Sanskrit (not sure if it has one in Slavic), see below:

                          Printables, coloring pages, recipes, crafts, and more from your child’s favorite Nickelodeon and Nick Jr. shows.

                          Meaning: Resembles a crane; blossom

                          Bakula represents the blossom of the tree with the same name. According to a story the flowers of the Bakula blossom when they are kissed by a woman.
                          I wonder how this came to be. I find that there are many unique Croatian names.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            I find that there are many unique Croatian names.
                            I agree. They are less likely to be some Christian based variant.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              #74
                              That's true, also, they often aren't 'formalised' with a specific suffix.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Valmir
                                Banned
                                • Sep 2011
                                • 112

                                #75
                                They didn't get their language from the Russians
                                Yes they do,They speak the same language with Russians,just a little bit of Editing

                                As for the term 'Slavic', it is only suitable for a linguistic group and not a specific language
                                Slavic is a origin of some nations in Europe, which Serbs and Croats are one of them!

                                What linguistic group does Albanian belong to? None.
                                Im suprised that you dont know this,Its learned in all universities over Europe!
                                There are only 3 languages in the Europe that are directly connected to Indo-European Languages Tree!
                                Greek,Albanian,Armenian.
                                For more information click here:

                                Or perhaps all.
                                Nope, Albanian is INDO-EUROPiAN language!

                                That is because it is one of the most bastardised languages in Europe. And you're going to blabber on about "pure" Illyrians? Please....
                                Its not bastardised lol, WHo told you that?
                                Learn Albanian and you will se it, its true that we have some words similar with Italian,French,German language, thats because they have the same Origin (Indo European)

                                For more information about Indo European languages Click on Wikipedia

                                Comment

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