The Illyrians

[Soldier of Macedon]

Interesting how in Macedonian it is Vozach whereas in Polish it is Woźnik, as they use different suffixes. However, a passenger in Macedonian is Patnik, using the same suffix as what Polish would use for a person in charge of a horse-cart or care-taker, ie; 'driver'. Macedonian also has Vodnik, a type of leader (sergeant).

Is the development of Woznik to Wozniak common in Polish?

[Bratot]

It's about surnames, the correct form is Wożniak, the one who drive, transport or built vehicles.

It's very common process of giving someone's surname according to his profession.

Wóz - a Car

Wożniak - the Car driver.

We have Voz - for a Train, but in Polish it's - Pociąg ( Pociong ) meaning Pulling machine.

We also have Vozar - carter, driver.

This is very common characteristic for the structure of slavic languages, there is logical forming of words.

Vozen - driven, Vozen red - Timetable, but in Serbian it's already (<-n Vozni red, so by analogy you get to the Polish form.
In some slavic languages the C(ch) = K -> Vozach -> Vozak -> Voznak = Wożniak

Macedonian name for ' Usher ' is also Razvodnik (разводник) in the cinema/theatre, where you have very close form to the Polish Wożniak.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bratot, given that V was quite often B in ancient times, what do you think about the possibility of a relation between Bosni -> Vozni? It is, of course, only a suggestion, and I haven't looked into it too much.

[Bratot]

It is possibility SoM, why not? I don't exclude anything, maybe there is such relation, but it would be more easier if we could find practical meaning of that name applied to the territory of Bosnia.

[Epirot]

[§1] The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube. This is the length of the country. Its breadth is from Macedonia and the mountains of Thrace to Pannonia and the Adriatic and the foothills of the Alps.

SoM, what do you think about the above geographical description of Illyria by Appian? I mean what do you think about southern confines of Illyria according to Appian? Does he include or exclude Epirus (Thesprotians and Chaonians) from Illyria? A number of pro-Greeks use erroneously this quote as proof to put Illyrian borders in north of Chaonia, thus excluding most of Epirus from Illyria. But if Appian really intended to put Illyrian boundary in north of Chaonia, then why he did mention even the Thesprotia (which extended south of Chaonia)?! Can we conclude on the base of this citation that Illyria extended as far as Ambracia Gulf? Does it speak in the favor of the latter interpretation this statement of Polybius:

POLYBIUS - 'THE RISE OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE', HISTORIES Book XVIII.5
Αἰτωλῶν δ' οὐκ ἀνεκτόν: ποίας δὲ κελεύετέ με" [7] φησὶν " [8] ἐκχωρεῖν Ἑλλάδος καὶ πῶς ἀφορίζετε ταύτην; αὐτῶν γὰρ Αἰτωλῶν οὐκ εἰσὶν Ἕλληνες οἱ πλείους: τὸ γὰρ τῶν Ἀγραῶν ἔθνος καὶ τὸ τῶν Ἀποδωτῶν, ἔτι δὲ τῶν Ἀμφιλόχων, οὐκ ἔστιν Ἑλλάς. [9] ἢ τούτων μὲν παραχωρεῖτέ μοι;"

'What is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and what how do you define Greece?. Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks!. The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Amphilochians cannot be regarded as Greeks. So do you allow to me to remain in those territories'

Which one should be the correct interpretation of Appian description?

Thanks

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot, several authors from antiquity have their own interpretations of the borders in the Balkans. I think that the original boundary of where the Greek language was formed doesn't go much north of the Peloponnese, the rest was gradually 'Hellenised' at different times, in different periods and to varying degrees.

[Voltron]

Epirot, do you have any reliable sources that can shed light on Illyrian language or symbols ? I am familiar with Thracian as there is a ring that shows their language. Is there anything similar for Illyrians ? I tried looking on the net, but it seems they are indeed one of the most vague groups in balkan antiquity. There is even speculation that they might be related to the Celts. I would first like to see what types of influence they could of provided to the Greeks if we dont even know how they were ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Voltron, your post is more relevant here, so I moved it to this thread. I don't want the other thread to be bogged down by discussions that are best suited elsewhere.

[Voltron]

I just saw this now. Thanks man.

They really are a group that Id like to get more info on. Im still trying to find something on them that is not questionable. Its a lot easier for Thracians, but Illyrians seem like an enigma.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Voltron, you won't find any Illyrian texts, only single words like nouns and verbs, and generally in nominative and genitive cases.

[Epirot]

Originally posted by George. S

so epirot where was the origin of the illyrians from

A very good question, mate! The Illyrian ethno-genesis is a very complicated issue because the mysterious Illyrians covered a vast territory and there were many scholars who considered them as a heterogeneous people with a common geographical name. There were a plenty of theories about their origin, some of them have been dismantled with the drift of time, while others are still in existence. But all of those various theories can be summarized in two opinions:

- Illyrians were newcomers from Central Europe (their original homeland is sought from Austria, Pannonia up to the southern Germany) or in other words, as bearers of Halshtat culture

-Illyrians as autochthonous in Balkans. This appears to be in line with ancient testimonies, which attributed to the Illyrians an "Mediterranean" origin (all of the supposed progenitors of Illyrians were connected to that of ancient Greeks). Even the archaeological excavations have provided that the Illyrians developed their ethnic identity in an autochthonous substrat, which is why there is no interruption between Bronz Age and Iron one.

The features of the formation of the Illyrian ethnic individuality in a definite epoch have been conditioned first of all by the scale of economic and social development and have grown on the basis of the three main already known principles of differentiation, integration and assimilation. The differentiation process characterized the early period of the flourishing of the gender community when the development scale was low while the processes of integration, conception, assimilation and converging were especially characteristic of the period of the disintegration of the clan community and birth of the slave-owning society. In the territory of the Western Balkans, the process of differentiation has predominated the early bronze period. The cultures of this period, created as a consequence of the intertwining of the anase eneolith with the cultures brought by the concentrations of the Indo-European peoples, have in this phase of their formation a more general Balkan character and we cannot be looking for distinctive ethnic features in them. During the middle Bronze Age, the process of differentiation continued to deepen but at the same time the integration process kicked in. These processes, which were conditioned by the relative autochthony and a series of progressive steps in some areas of the economy, as we have stated above, led to the birth of the Illyrian ethnos.

In the late Bronze Age, the process of the union of smaller communities into bigger communities and, as a consequence, a broader Illyrian community with common cultural, cult and linguistic features was formed at the end of the Bronze Age.

The process of assimilation started to play a bigger role and assume priority during the Iron Age in the XI-V Centuries B.C. as a result of the higher economic and social development of the Illyrian territory. Thus, during the Iron Age, on the basis of autochthony, the Illyrians developed and consolidated their culture and language, which were finally getting crystallized. This epoch marks the stage of the biggest and most general cultural and ethnic flourishing of the Illyrians in the Iron Age when they occupied the whole western part of the Balkan peninsula, having the Greeks to the south, the Thracians to the east. They became one of the greatest peoples of the Balkans.

http://mkorkuti.tripod.com/id10.html

Originally posted George. S

why did they cease to exist???

This claim has no legs to stand on, mate! Southern Illyrians continued unceasingly their existence as Albanians in the most remote mountainous regions of Illyria, which corresponds roughly with the Albania. Illyrian culture left a great impact among today Balkans people. All scholars have noticed that this culture has survived into that of Albanians and some group of Slavs, mostly in north (Montenegrins).

Originally posted by George S.

Also how much of the words in illyrian are preserved in the albanian language today??

To be honest, I do not know exactly their number, but most of Illyrian words which are thought by linguists to be found in Albanian do belong to the toponomy (geographical Illyrian names, rivers, mountains, cities, etc) and more rarely to the anthroponomy (names of some Illyrian kings or Messapian names). From all dialects of Illyrian, Messapian seem to be better recorded since they use Greek alphabet to write their own language.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Southern Illyrians continued unceasingly their existence as Albanians in the most remote mountainous regions of Illyria, which corresponds roughly with the Albania.

What evidence is there to suggest that Illyrians continued to exist "as" Albanians?

All scholars have noticed that this culture has survived into that of Albanians and some group of Slavs, mostly in north (Montenegrins).

Are you suggesting that the majority of today's Albanian culture is Illyrian? If so, what is it, and how does it differ from the culture of Macedonians, Montenegrins and Serbs?

[Epirot]

What evidence is there to suggest that Illyrians continued to exist "as" Albanians?

I am referring mostly to the archeological investigations who have shred some light on the very fact that Illyrian culture continued its existence into early Albanian one. The period of late antiquity was characterized by dramatic changes which were caused due to the weakness of Roman Empire and the first incursions of "barbarians". This was reflected especially to the northern Illyrians, who get massively expelled or were impelled to migrate in south, where they could preserve their identity. Here I'm gonna present an archeological review about Komani culture and its possible connection with early Albanians:

THE KOMAN CULTURE – A TESTIMONY OF THE ILLYRIAN ARBER CONTINUITY

Features of the Koman (Arber) Culture. Archaeological research was given a priority and was considered as one of the primary possibilities to throw light on the early Albanian Middle Ages due to the lack of written sources about that period. In the course of the last 40 years of the XX Century, a rich and variegated archaeological material was discovered thanks to the systematic research and excavations in the cemeteries of the early medieval cities and towns. It helped clarify the most important issues of the early middle Ages and the Koman culture became a reference point for many problems. It became the cornerstone of the thesis backing the autochthony of the Albanians.

The scholars were faced with the problems of determining the components of the material Koman culture, the dating of the cemetery and the ethnic line of the bearers of the Koman culture.

The highlighting of these two fundamental problem of the Koman culture was carried out thanks to the year-long systematic research and studies by Albanian archaeologists in the cemetery of the medieval castle of Kruja, the Dalmaca castle, the Bukli cemetery (Mirdita region), Shurdhah (Shkodra region), Lezhe, Prosek (in the Mirdita region) and a checking excavation in the Koman graveyard. The degree of knowledge about the early Albanian medieval culture became expanded thanks to the discoveries in some tomb burial grounds of south and southeastern Albania in Dukat (Vlore region), Prodan and Rehove (Kolonje region), in Rapcke and Piskove (Permeti region) and in Patos (the Fier region).

A new direction and a new broader focus in the study of the culture of the late antiquity and early Middle Ages began with the research in some townships and castles as well as numerous cult monuments belonging to these periods in the castle of Pogradec, Shurdhah, Berat, Kanina, in Gradishta of Symiza (Korce region), in the city of Onhezmi (Sarande), in the castle of Shkoder, in the cities of Durres and Vlore.

The 40-year-old archaeological research has identified the Koman culture in 28 big and small cemeteries and numerous chance findings. Their geographical extension is very wide, ranging from Shkoder Lake in the north, the valley in the middle of the two Drin Rivers and reaches south as far as Durres. To the southeast, it lay around Lake Ohrid. The cumulative discoveries made in the early medieval cemeteries of Kolonja, Permet, Dukat, Patos create an entirety, a very complete picture of the cultural development of the territory of our country during the early middle Ages.

The full and total familiarity with the archaeological material discovered in the Arber graves has led the Albanian scholars to the conclusion that the material and spiritual culture discovered in these graves creates wholeness and as a result it is connected to only one local population.

The Koman Culture Carriers. Since 100 years ago when the Koman culture was discovered, numerous scholars have been dealing with its historical and ethnic interpretation and have expressed the most diverse opinions. One of the key issues dividing the scholars who have expressed very diverse views revolves around the carriers of the Koman culture. Different scholars have considered as carriers of the Koman culture the Pelasgis, the Suevians, the Romanised Illyrians, the Avars and the Slavs.

The archaeological discoveries and the studies on Albanian medieval culture helped create an entirely new and complete situation to help understand the geographical expansion of the Arber culture, the definition of the cultural features, its dating, the historical context of its birth and development and as a consequence the identification of the origin of such culture. The carriers of the Koman culture were an ethnos, an autochthonous local population derived from the Illyrians, which features in the later writings with the names of Albans, Arbanite, and Arber. This name is identical to the name Albans that Ptolemy mentions when speaking about the population living in the interior of Durres. The local population, the successor to the Illyrians, in the early middle Ages, gradually became ever more important, giving its name to the region and later on to the whole country.

We should consider the process of the birth and formation of the Arber culture and its carriers as an historical development that several basic components contributed to. Interacting with and upon each other, these components helped create a culture with a new physiognomy and features under the circumstances of the passage from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages. The new culture earned a new name for itself – the Arber culture.

The components that took part in the creation of the Arber culture were:

- The autochthonous Illyrian component, or the Illyrian legacy

- The component of the provincial Roman culture and late antiquity

- The component of the early Byzantine culture



The Illyrian Legacy It is necessary to watch the typological evolution of the objects of Illyrian origin and the changes they have gone through from time to time. Among them, one of the most characteristic objects that has attracted the attention of the scholars is the fibula with bent-over legs. The wire bracelets with a round cut that are closed by two spiral-like buds, the small circles formed of twisted wire speak of the continuity of tradition in the preparation of decoration objects. The origin of the latter objects should be sought in the circles found in the graves of the first centuries of our era.

One of the elements of the Illyrian tradition, which needs to be mentioned, is one aspect of the spiritual world, the cult to the dead and the cult of the burial, an area where the indicators of the traditional character are very sensitive.

The elements of the Illyrian culture that came to the Arber culture through the centuries bear testimony to the continuity to the fact that the same population inhabited our territory.

http://mkorkuti.tripod.com/id10.html

Originally posted by SoM

Are you suggesting that the majority of today's Albanian culture is Illyrian?

I'd say yes but I'm not rejecting the possibility that Albanian culture may contain other influences, as well. As far as I remember, John Wilkes, one of the leading authorities on Illyrians, stated in the end of his book, that Albanian culture has a completely distinctive character from that of neighbors, and an Illyrian component seem very plausible.

Originally posted by SoM

If so, what is it, and how does it differ from the culture of Macedonians, Montenegrins and Serbs?

Yes I am aware that Macedonian and Montenegrin cultures have some Illyrian features (traditional dress, dances and some old traditions). I just want to say that due to its geography Albania could preserve better Illyrian culture. Anyway, I'll compile some sources in regard with the Illyrian features among Albanians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am referring mostly to the archeological investigations who have shred some light on the very fact that Illyrian culture continued its existence into early Albanian one.

That is no different from the archaeological remains in the rest of the western Balkans, where the majority of the people are not Albanians, but Slavic-speaking peoples.

I'd say yes but I'm not rejecting the possibility that Albanian culture may contain other influences, as well.

You would say yes to the majority of Albanian culture being Illyrian? Please elaborate. I would like to see how it differs from their neighbours.

As far as I remember, John Wilkes, one of the leading authorities on Illyrians, stated in the end of his book, that Albanian culture has a completely distinctive character from that of neighbors, and an Illyrian component seem very plausible.

Please quote the sentence, because as you saw in the past, some of the information you have obtained regarding Wilkes has been incorrect. Also, just because some aspects of Albanian culture are different, it doesn't automatically qualify them as being Illyrian.

Yes I am aware that Macedonian and Montenegrin cultures have some Illyrian features (traditional dress, dances and some old traditions). I just want to say that due to its geography Albania could preserve better Illyrian culture.

Geographically speaking, there are larger regions in the western Balkans than Albania which were once a part of the Illyrian realm, such as Bosnia and Croatia.

[Epirot]

Please quote the sentence, because as you saw in the past, some of the information you have obtained regarding Wilkes has been incorrect. Also, just because some aspects of Albanian culture are different, it doesn't automatically qualify them as being Illyrian.

Sorry for the delayed response, SoM. I ordered John Wilkes's book via amazon and now I can cite originally him. In the last chapter, Wilkes wrote:

As new guide-books are demonstrating, the Albanian culture, as fascinating and varied as any in that quarter of Europe, is an inheritance from the several languages, religions and ethnic groups known to have inhabited the region since prehistoric times, among whom were the Illyrians. (p.280)

So, Wilkes position is that Albanian culture is an inheritance of several cultures, among whom were the Illyrians.

Originally posted by SoM

Geographically speaking, there are larger regions in the western Balkans than Albania which were once a part of the Illyrian realm, such as Bosnia and Croatia.

I agree at some extent with you, but today Albanian inhabited lands are just a small section comparing to the vast territory of once Illyria. We have also to take in consideration that Northern Albania has been once inhabited by the proper Illyrians.

Pliny (23–79 AD) writes that the people that formed the nucleus of the Illyrian kingdom were 'Illyrians proper' or Illyrii Proprie Dicti. They were the Taulantii, [B]the Pleraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei and the Labeatae. These later joined to form the Docleatae.

If we search their territorial extension, we can notice that they are to be found in today Albania (the Grabaei and Labeatae used to live around Shkodër lake), whereas Taulanti lived in the hinterland of Dyrachium, stretching from Mati river up to Shkumbin.

Originally posted by SoM

You would say yes to the majority of Albanian culture being Illyrian? Please elaborate. I would like to see how it differs from their neighbours.

I would mention some specific cultural traits that are not in common with our neighbors.

The Albanian word besa is usually translated in English as “faith”, “trust” or “oath of peace”, but its truer meaning is “to keep the promise”.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/arts/article_2114.jsp

Barthold Georg Niebuhr made a good analogy between Albanian "besa" and the Illyrian "oath of peace":

The latter experienced many changes of fortune: the Dolopians, dissatisfied with him, joined Cassander, and he was obliged to take to flight. Pyrrhus remained behind as a child of two years old, and some faithful servants carried him, with the most imminent danger, across the frontier into Illyricum, where the Taulantians, who had before been subdued by Philip, had risen again and formed an independent principality. Its ruler was Glaucius, "an enemy of Pyrrhus' father," and probably a son of Bardylis. In manners, language, faithlessness, and rudeness, the Illyrians were the genuine forefathers of the Arnauts, or Arbanites, a very brave but terrible people. Among those wild barbarians Pyrrhus found a place of safety: the heart of Glaucias was moved by the sight of the infant. There are men who exercise a magic power over the hearts of others, and this is often visible even in children, who, however, often lose it in after life. In like manner, Pyrrhus had a peculiar charm, and a power over the hearts of all who came in contact with him. Throughout his life, he won every one's affection by the frankness of his mind, by his cordiality, and his noble soldier-like character There never was a prince in whom the character of a soldier had so much of poetry in it. The barbarian Glaucias could not resist the charms of the boy: the woman to whom he had been intrusted, placed the child on the domestic altar, and his aspect moved the barbarian. There are certain relations which are sacred to the Albanese, when they are not venal: humanity is not to be expected from them, for they are inhumanly cruel, and their avarice leads them to sell everything; but in some instances they pledge their word and are faithful, as e.g., when they conclude an agreement of hospitality and accompany a person: thus Lord Byron had for his guide an Albanetse robber, who told him of his murders, etc.; but he was quite safe. However, these are rare cases. The character of the ancient Illyrians was quite the same. Cassander afterwards offered to Glaucias a sum of money, which, considering hia circumstances, was immense, if he would give up Pyrrhus: but he refused to do so, for the child had won his heart. When Glaucias entered, the boy crawled up to him with a friendly smile, lifted himself up by his leg, and embraced his knee; and Glaucias received him as his own child. Pyrrhus then grew up among those half-savages, and it is a proof of his extraordinary strength and unconquerable nature, that his noble mind was not stifled among the barbarians. When he was a grown-up boy, his foster-father undertook to restore him to his country, and the Molottians were prevailed upon to receive him.

Lectures on ancient history: from the earliest times to the taking of ... By Barthold Georg Niebuhr

The Albanians today are a warlike, lawless people, but nevertheless they have their own-and a very strict-code of honor and they are faithfull even unto death

-H.Charles Woods

Of great importance in relating Illyrians with the Albanians is also the traditional customary law called 'Kanun':

However, Albanian customary law evolved over many centuries, both before and after the lifetime of this particular historical personage. The influence of Illyrian law should not be ignored. As the direct precursors of the Albanians, the Illyrians undoubtedly retained their legal norms despite coming under Roman domination, since it is established that the Roman governor of Illyria permitted the use of local laws when these did not conflict with the principles of Roman law. Even after Diocletian, when the provinces were forced to submit to increased Romanisation, the old laws were retained at least in memory and must have been transmitted orally to succeeding generations.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html

The Kanun is based on four pillars:

Honour (Albanian: Nderi)
Hospitality (Albanian: Mikpritja)
Right Conduct (Albanian: Sjellja)
Kin Loyalty (Albanian: Fis)

Needles to say, but Illyrians celebrated all of these virtues. At least, literary testimonies suggest so.

Authors of antiquity relate that the Illyrians were a sociable and hospitable people, renowned for their daring and bravery at war.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...129453/History

The Illyrians were sociable and hospitable people, much like Albanians today. They were also daring fighters and known for their bravery in war.

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/stud...e/history.html