The Illyrians

[Epirot]

What evidence is there to suggest that Illyrians continued to exist "as" Albanians?

I am referring mostly to the archeological investigations who have shred some light on the very fact that Illyrian culture continued its existence into early Albanian one. The period of late antiquity was characterized by dramatic changes which were caused due to the weakness of Roman Empire and the first incursions of "barbarians". This was reflected especially to the northern Illyrians, who get massively expelled or were impelled to migrate in south, where they could preserve their identity. Here I'm gonna present an archeological review about Komani culture and its possible connection with early Albanians:

THE KOMAN CULTURE – A TESTIMONY OF THE ILLYRIAN ARBER CONTINUITY

Features of the Koman (Arber) Culture. Archaeological research was given a priority and was considered as one of the primary possibilities to throw light on the early Albanian Middle Ages due to the lack of written sources about that period. In the course of the last 40 years of the XX Century, a rich and variegated archaeological material was discovered thanks to the systematic research and excavations in the cemeteries of the early medieval cities and towns. It helped clarify the most important issues of the early middle Ages and the Koman culture became a reference point for many problems. It became the cornerstone of the thesis backing the autochthony of the Albanians.

The scholars were faced with the problems of determining the components of the material Koman culture, the dating of the cemetery and the ethnic line of the bearers of the Koman culture.

The highlighting of these two fundamental problem of the Koman culture was carried out thanks to the year-long systematic research and studies by Albanian archaeologists in the cemetery of the medieval castle of Kruja, the Dalmaca castle, the Bukli cemetery (Mirdita region), Shurdhah (Shkodra region), Lezhe, Prosek (in the Mirdita region) and a checking excavation in the Koman graveyard. The degree of knowledge about the early Albanian medieval culture became expanded thanks to the discoveries in some tomb burial grounds of south and southeastern Albania in Dukat (Vlore region), Prodan and Rehove (Kolonje region), in Rapcke and Piskove (Permeti region) and in Patos (the Fier region).

A new direction and a new broader focus in the study of the culture of the late antiquity and early Middle Ages began with the research in some townships and castles as well as numerous cult monuments belonging to these periods in the castle of Pogradec, Shurdhah, Berat, Kanina, in Gradishta of Symiza (Korce region), in the city of Onhezmi (Sarande), in the castle of Shkoder, in the cities of Durres and Vlore.

The 40-year-old archaeological research has identified the Koman culture in 28 big and small cemeteries and numerous chance findings. Their geographical extension is very wide, ranging from Shkoder Lake in the north, the valley in the middle of the two Drin Rivers and reaches south as far as Durres. To the southeast, it lay around Lake Ohrid. The cumulative discoveries made in the early medieval cemeteries of Kolonja, Permet, Dukat, Patos create an entirety, a very complete picture of the cultural development of the territory of our country during the early middle Ages.

The full and total familiarity with the archaeological material discovered in the Arber graves has led the Albanian scholars to the conclusion that the material and spiritual culture discovered in these graves creates wholeness and as a result it is connected to only one local population.

The Koman Culture Carriers. Since 100 years ago when the Koman culture was discovered, numerous scholars have been dealing with its historical and ethnic interpretation and have expressed the most diverse opinions. One of the key issues dividing the scholars who have expressed very diverse views revolves around the carriers of the Koman culture. Different scholars have considered as carriers of the Koman culture the Pelasgis, the Suevians, the Romanised Illyrians, the Avars and the Slavs.

The archaeological discoveries and the studies on Albanian medieval culture helped create an entirely new and complete situation to help understand the geographical expansion of the Arber culture, the definition of the cultural features, its dating, the historical context of its birth and development and as a consequence the identification of the origin of such culture. The carriers of the Koman culture were an ethnos, an autochthonous local population derived from the Illyrians, which features in the later writings with the names of Albans, Arbanite, and Arber. This name is identical to the name Albans that Ptolemy mentions when speaking about the population living in the interior of Durres. The local population, the successor to the Illyrians, in the early middle Ages, gradually became ever more important, giving its name to the region and later on to the whole country.

We should consider the process of the birth and formation of the Arber culture and its carriers as an historical development that several basic components contributed to. Interacting with and upon each other, these components helped create a culture with a new physiognomy and features under the circumstances of the passage from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages. The new culture earned a new name for itself – the Arber culture.

The components that took part in the creation of the Arber culture were:

- The autochthonous Illyrian component, or the Illyrian legacy

- The component of the provincial Roman culture and late antiquity

- The component of the early Byzantine culture



The Illyrian Legacy It is necessary to watch the typological evolution of the objects of Illyrian origin and the changes they have gone through from time to time. Among them, one of the most characteristic objects that has attracted the attention of the scholars is the fibula with bent-over legs. The wire bracelets with a round cut that are closed by two spiral-like buds, the small circles formed of twisted wire speak of the continuity of tradition in the preparation of decoration objects. The origin of the latter objects should be sought in the circles found in the graves of the first centuries of our era.

One of the elements of the Illyrian tradition, which needs to be mentioned, is one aspect of the spiritual world, the cult to the dead and the cult of the burial, an area where the indicators of the traditional character are very sensitive.

The elements of the Illyrian culture that came to the Arber culture through the centuries bear testimony to the continuity to the fact that the same population inhabited our territory.

http://mkorkuti.tripod.com/id10.html

Originally posted by SoM

Are you suggesting that the majority of today's Albanian culture is Illyrian?

I'd say yes but I'm not rejecting the possibility that Albanian culture may contain other influences, as well. As far as I remember, John Wilkes, one of the leading authorities on Illyrians, stated in the end of his book, that Albanian culture has a completely distinctive character from that of neighbors, and an Illyrian component seem very plausible.

Originally posted by SoM

If so, what is it, and how does it differ from the culture of Macedonians, Montenegrins and Serbs?

Yes I am aware that Macedonian and Montenegrin cultures have some Illyrian features (traditional dress, dances and some old traditions). I just want to say that due to its geography Albania could preserve better Illyrian culture. Anyway, I'll compile some sources in regard with the Illyrian features among Albanians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Southern Illyrians continued unceasingly their existence as Albanians in the most remote mountainous regions of Illyria, which corresponds roughly with the Albania.

What evidence is there to suggest that Illyrians continued to exist "as" Albanians?

All scholars have noticed that this culture has survived into that of Albanians and some group of Slavs, mostly in north (Montenegrins).

Are you suggesting that the majority of today's Albanian culture is Illyrian? If so, what is it, and how does it differ from the culture of Macedonians, Montenegrins and Serbs?

[Epirot]

Originally posted by George. S

so epirot where was the origin of the illyrians from

A very good question, mate! The Illyrian ethno-genesis is a very complicated issue because the mysterious Illyrians covered a vast territory and there were many scholars who considered them as a heterogeneous people with a common geographical name. There were a plenty of theories about their origin, some of them have been dismantled with the drift of time, while others are still in existence. But all of those various theories can be summarized in two opinions:

- Illyrians were newcomers from Central Europe (their original homeland is sought from Austria, Pannonia up to the southern Germany) or in other words, as bearers of Halshtat culture

-Illyrians as autochthonous in Balkans. This appears to be in line with ancient testimonies, which attributed to the Illyrians an "Mediterranean" origin (all of the supposed progenitors of Illyrians were connected to that of ancient Greeks). Even the archaeological excavations have provided that the Illyrians developed their ethnic identity in an autochthonous substrat, which is why there is no interruption between Bronz Age and Iron one.

The features of the formation of the Illyrian ethnic individuality in a definite epoch have been conditioned first of all by the scale of economic and social development and have grown on the basis of the three main already known principles of differentiation, integration and assimilation. The differentiation process characterized the early period of the flourishing of the gender community when the development scale was low while the processes of integration, conception, assimilation and converging were especially characteristic of the period of the disintegration of the clan community and birth of the slave-owning society. In the territory of the Western Balkans, the process of differentiation has predominated the early bronze period. The cultures of this period, created as a consequence of the intertwining of the anase eneolith with the cultures brought by the concentrations of the Indo-European peoples, have in this phase of their formation a more general Balkan character and we cannot be looking for distinctive ethnic features in them. During the middle Bronze Age, the process of differentiation continued to deepen but at the same time the integration process kicked in. These processes, which were conditioned by the relative autochthony and a series of progressive steps in some areas of the economy, as we have stated above, led to the birth of the Illyrian ethnos.

In the late Bronze Age, the process of the union of smaller communities into bigger communities and, as a consequence, a broader Illyrian community with common cultural, cult and linguistic features was formed at the end of the Bronze Age.

The process of assimilation started to play a bigger role and assume priority during the Iron Age in the XI-V Centuries B.C. as a result of the higher economic and social development of the Illyrian territory. Thus, during the Iron Age, on the basis of autochthony, the Illyrians developed and consolidated their culture and language, which were finally getting crystallized. This epoch marks the stage of the biggest and most general cultural and ethnic flourishing of the Illyrians in the Iron Age when they occupied the whole western part of the Balkan peninsula, having the Greeks to the south, the Thracians to the east. They became one of the greatest peoples of the Balkans.

http://mkorkuti.tripod.com/id10.html

Originally posted George. S

why did they cease to exist???

This claim has no legs to stand on, mate! Southern Illyrians continued unceasingly their existence as Albanians in the most remote mountainous regions of Illyria, which corresponds roughly with the Albania. Illyrian culture left a great impact among today Balkans people. All scholars have noticed that this culture has survived into that of Albanians and some group of Slavs, mostly in north (Montenegrins).

Originally posted by George S.

Also how much of the words in illyrian are preserved in the albanian language today??

To be honest, I do not know exactly their number, but most of Illyrian words which are thought by linguists to be found in Albanian do belong to the toponomy (geographical Illyrian names, rivers, mountains, cities, etc) and more rarely to the anthroponomy (names of some Illyrian kings or Messapian names). From all dialects of Illyrian, Messapian seem to be better recorded since they use Greek alphabet to write their own language.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Voltron, you won't find any Illyrian texts, only single words like nouns and verbs, and generally in nominative and genitive cases.

[Voltron]

I just saw this now. Thanks man.

They really are a group that Id like to get more info on. Im still trying to find something on them that is not questionable. Its a lot easier for Thracians, but Illyrians seem like an enigma.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Voltron, your post is more relevant here, so I moved it to this thread. I don't want the other thread to be bogged down by discussions that are best suited elsewhere.

[Voltron]

Epirot, do you have any reliable sources that can shed light on Illyrian language or symbols ? I am familiar with Thracian as there is a ring that shows their language. Is there anything similar for Illyrians ? I tried looking on the net, but it seems they are indeed one of the most vague groups in balkan antiquity. There is even speculation that they might be related to the Celts. I would first like to see what types of influence they could of provided to the Greeks if we dont even know how they were ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot, several authors from antiquity have their own interpretations of the borders in the Balkans. I think that the original boundary of where the Greek language was formed doesn't go much north of the Peloponnese, the rest was gradually 'Hellenised' at different times, in different periods and to varying degrees.

[Epirot]

[§1] The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube. This is the length of the country. Its breadth is from Macedonia and the mountains of Thrace to Pannonia and the Adriatic and the foothills of the Alps.

SoM, what do you think about the above geographical description of Illyria by Appian? I mean what do you think about southern confines of Illyria according to Appian? Does he include or exclude Epirus (Thesprotians and Chaonians) from Illyria? A number of pro-Greeks use erroneously this quote as proof to put Illyrian borders in north of Chaonia, thus excluding most of Epirus from Illyria. But if Appian really intended to put Illyrian boundary in north of Chaonia, then why he did mention even the Thesprotia (which extended south of Chaonia)?! Can we conclude on the base of this citation that Illyria extended as far as Ambracia Gulf? Does it speak in the favor of the latter interpretation this statement of Polybius:

POLYBIUS - 'THE RISE OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE', HISTORIES Book XVIII.5
Αἰτωλῶν δ' οὐκ ἀνεκτόν: ποίας δὲ κελεύετέ με" [7] φησὶν " [8] ἐκχωρεῖν Ἑλλάδος καὶ πῶς ἀφορίζετε ταύτην; αὐτῶν γὰρ Αἰτωλῶν οὐκ εἰσὶν Ἕλληνες οἱ πλείους: τὸ γὰρ τῶν Ἀγραῶν ἔθνος καὶ τὸ τῶν Ἀποδωτῶν, ἔτι δὲ τῶν Ἀμφιλόχων, οὐκ ἔστιν Ἑλλάς. [9] ἢ τούτων μὲν παραχωρεῖτέ μοι;"

'What is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and what how do you define Greece?. Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks!. The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Amphilochians cannot be regarded as Greeks. So do you allow to me to remain in those territories'

Which one should be the correct interpretation of Appian description?

Thanks

[Bratot]

It is possibility SoM, why not? I don't exclude anything, maybe there is such relation, but it would be more easier if we could find practical meaning of that name applied to the territory of Bosnia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bratot, given that V was quite often B in ancient times, what do you think about the possibility of a relation between Bosni -> Vozni? It is, of course, only a suggestion, and I haven't looked into it too much.

[Bratot]

It's about surnames, the correct form is Wożniak, the one who drive, transport or built vehicles.

It's very common process of giving someone's surname according to his profession.

Wóz - a Car

Wożniak - the Car driver.

We have Voz - for a Train, but in Polish it's - Pociąg ( Pociong ) meaning Pulling machine.

We also have Vozar - carter, driver.

This is very common characteristic for the structure of slavic languages, there is logical forming of words.

Vozen - driven, Vozen red - Timetable, but in Serbian it's already (<-n Vozni red, so by analogy you get to the Polish form.
In some slavic languages the C(ch) = K -> Vozach -> Vozak -> Voznak = Wożniak

Macedonian name for ' Usher ' is also Razvodnik (разводник) in the cinema/theatre, where you have very close form to the Polish Wożniak.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Interesting how in Macedonian it is Vozach whereas in Polish it is Woźnik, as they use different suffixes. However, a passenger in Macedonian is Patnik, using the same suffix as what Polish would use for a person in charge of a horse-cart or care-taker, ie; 'driver'. Macedonian also has Vodnik, a type of leader (sergeant).

Is the development of Woznik to Wozniak common in Polish?

[Bratot]

Does anybody know of a connection between the name Bosniak (originally from Bosona -> Bosnia, an Illyrian placename) and Wozniak? Are those Poles with such surnames actually Bosnian emigrants from past centuries? Or does it mean something more than that?

Bratot, you'd probably be best to answer this.

The origin of the name probably comes from the Woźnica - the person in charge of a horse carriage.
It is also possible origin of the name from Old Polish woźnik - the designer of horse cars, as well as from the Old Polish woźny(caretaker) - an important servant of the court.

It's alike ВОЗАЧ - in Macedonian.

In my opinion doesn't have anything common with Bosniak. The polish surname Wożniak is one of the most common surnames in Poland.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Does anybody know of a connection between the name Bosniak (originally from Bosona -> Bosnia, an Illyrian placename) and Wozniak? Are those Poles with such surnames actually Bosnian emigrants from past centuries? Or does it mean something more than that?

Bratot, you'd probably be best to answer this.