"Macedo-Bulgarians"

[Risto the Great]

Given “grandparents couldn’t understand their grandchildren” from the 1850’s onwards, it’s not difficult to imagine some brand new (Greek) identity was forming out of the Albanian stock of people.

[Mr Gurther]

Not to sound too pedantic but by using the word "considered", it can be misconstrued as though they imagined themselves to be Albanians. Fact is they were Albanians. Their language was Albanian, not Greek. The only question is what their true size was in proportion to the rest of the "Greeks". Whether they made up half the population, a quarter or less, is hard to say as Ottoman census data mainly relied on the millet system (i.e., religious communities) in determining population data and the Christian Albanians would have been counted as Romioi. The Greeks prefer to refer to them as "Arvanites" rather than straight out as Albanians as it is more in keeping with their ethnic Greek purity delusions. Arvanites sounds more like some lost Greek tribe rather than a foreign people residing in Greece. They still exist in Greece today but their numbers are clearly underestimated and many, no doubt, have fallen for the delusion of being "Albanophone Greeks" who are in fact descended from the Ancient Greeks. Just like many Macedonians have fallen for the idea of being "Slavophone Greeks" that are descended from the Ancient Greeks.

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Greek speakers were the only ethnic group to actually call themselves Romioi. No other Balkan people called themselves by this name. They actually didn't even believe they had a connection with the Ancient Greeks during Ottoman times. This idea was seeded in their heads by the Germans. And now we even have Turkish refugees who believe they are ethnically connected to the Ancient Macedonians.

i found an old 1860 news paper which claims around 200k of the population was Albanian and according to greek demographics in 1861 the population was 1 million so around 1/5 of the population identified as Albanians. and i remember finding a newspaper around the 1900s which stated around 10% of the population in Greece spoke Albanian as their mother tonque

heres the 1860 newspaper : https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...arRange&page=1

this site has a lot of old interesting newspaper which mentions how back then IMRO and its leaders were mostly considered Macedonians

[Karposh]

a lot of people in the ottoman empire called themselves whatever, in greece during the early 19 century almost more then half the population of Greece considered themselves as Albanians.

Not to sound too pedantic but by using the word "considered", it can be misconstrued as though they imagined themselves to be Albanians. Fact is they were Albanians. Their language was Albanian, not Greek. The only question is what their true size was in proportion to the rest of the "Greeks". Whether they made up half the population, a quarter or less, is hard to say as Ottoman census data mainly relied on the millet system (i.e., religious communities) in determining population data and the Christian Albanians would have been counted as Romioi. The Greeks prefer to refer to them as "Arvanites" rather than straight out as Albanians as it is more in keeping with their ethnic Greek purity delusions. Arvanites sounds more like some lost Greek tribe rather than a foreign people residing in Greece. They still exist in Greece today but their numbers are clearly underestimated and many, no doubt, have fallen for the delusion of being "Albanophone Greeks" who are in fact descended from the Ancient Greeks. Just like many Macedonians have fallen for the idea of being "Slavophone Greeks" that are descended from the Ancient Greeks.

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Greek speakers were the only ethnic group to actually call themselves Romioi. No other Balkan people called themselves by this name. They actually didn't even believe they had a connection with the Ancient Greeks during Ottoman times. This idea was seeded in their heads by the Germans. And now we even have Turkish refugees who believe they are ethnically connected to the Ancient Macedonians.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Yes, I echo Carlin here. It is not that the population of Greece (proper) considered themselves Albanian, it is that many of them spoke Arvanitic, an Albanian language. That is not the same as identifying as Albanian.

[Carlin]

a lot of people in the ottoman empire called themselves whatever, in greece during the early 19 century almost more then half the population of Greece considered themselves as Albanians.

During the Ottoman times Christian Orthodox Albanians most likely considered themselves just Orthodox Christians, and perhaps "Romaioi" (members of the Rum millet).

[Mr Gurther]

Let's not forget the Serbs calling themselves Greeks also.

a lot of people in the ottoman empire called themselves whatever, in greece during the early 19 century almost more then half the population of Greece considered themselves as Albanians.

[Risto the Great]

Perhaps. I do remember in one of these threads someone providng a source that stated the existence of "Bulgars" in Belgrade so maybe the term was once common.

Let's not forget the Serbs calling themselves Greeks also.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Here:
https://archive.org/details/narodnep...e/n23/mode/1up

Thank you for this Carlin.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Surely it would have to do with church affiliations/influences. North of Macedonia was the Serbian Orthodox Church which was completely revived in 1879.

Perhaps. I do remember in one of these threads someone providng a source that stated the existence of "Bulgars" in Belgrade so maybe the term was once common.

[Carlin]

Does anyone have a link to where I can read Verković's „Народне песме Македонски Бугара“ in its entirety? I am assuming Mr Gurther got their source off Macedonian Wikipedia, which does not provide a page number.

Here:

https://archive.org/details/narodnepesmemak00verkgoog/page/n23/mode/1up

[Risto the Great]

Thank you for this. Not sure how this book has escaped my notice until now. Very interesting indeed. I suppose what still needs to be clarified is that if Bulgar is a synonym of Slav, why was the Bulgar title far less popular north of Macedonia? Perhaps something to do with the medieval Bulgarian states?

Surely it would have to do with church affiliations/influences. North of Macedonia was the Serbian Orthodox Church which was completely revived in 1879.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Does anyone have a link to where I can read Verković's „Народне песме Македонски Бугара“ in its entirety? I am assuming Mr Gurther got their source off Macedonian Wikipedia, which does not provide a page number.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

yea here you go : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...B2D0B8D19C.png

Thank you for this. Not sure how this book has escaped my notice until now. Very interesting indeed. I suppose what still needs to be clarified is that if Bulgar is a synonym of Slav, why was the Bulgar title far less popular north of Macedonia? Perhaps something to do with the medieval Bulgarian states?

[Mr Gurther]

Do you have a link to this source?

yea here you go : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...B2D0B8D19C.png

[Liberator of Makedonija]

thanks for the info, i also found something from Stefan Verkovic book -"Songs for Macedo-Bulgaro" in 1860

Do you have a link to this source?