Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia

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  • ohridski
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2009
    • 23

    #46
    Was the Ohrid Archbishopric called "Bulgarian" before 1767 during the Ottoman Empire only? Is there evidence that it was called as such from people within Macedonia?
    Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

    Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

    From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

    I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.

    In the first half of the 20th century, most of the Macedonians were largely classified as Bulgarians or Macedono-Bulgarians.[13][14][15] At that time the political organization by the Slavic immigrants from the region of Macedonia - the Macedonian Patriotic Organization has also promoted the idea of Macedonian Slavs being Bulgarians.[16]
    In 1910 they established Sts. Cyril and Methody Macedono-Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Toronto. [10]
    The church Saint's Cyril and Methodius was consecrated in Toronto in 1910. This was followed by the St. George Macedono-Bulgarian Orthodox Church and the Holy Trinity Macedono-Bulgarian Church.
    However the opinion of the President of the Central Committee George Lebamoff is that the MPO was pro-Bulgarian, but now the independent Republic of Macedonia needs help and it is time to forget the past. According to him, only Macedonians who were educated under the old Yugoslav government are anti-Bulgarian oriented.[8] Unexpectedly later in an interview for the Macedonian magazine "Kapital" he sharply criticized the policy of Republic of Macedonia stating, by this way, hiding the truth about the Bulgarian roots and history of the Macedonian people, it has no future.[9]

    Comment

    • Daskalot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 4345

      #47
      Originally posted by ohridski View Post
      Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

      Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

      From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

      I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.










      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon...c_Organization
      Pardon me Ohridski, but are you an ethnic Bulgarian?
      By the looks of it you are.
      Macedonian Truth Organisation

      Comment

      • Daskalot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 4345

        #48
        Ok, you just disappeared so let me answer your above statements.

        but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.
        Of course there is a link between us Macedonians and Bulgarians, a link which we share with other Slavic nations on the Balkan and else where, we also share many cultural traits whom we also share with our other Balkan neighbors. There are many factors, but you seem to be of the assumption that we are the same yet the Serbians are also quite similar to the Bulgarians.

        There’s obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.
        All of us on the Balkans do share many of our neighbors characteristics, this does not however make us into one and the same.
        Our language similar, but that is not strange since Old Church Slavonic has it origins in the language spoken around Salonica Macedonia in the 9th century, the Slavic version of the Bible was translated in this language. This language is the one you speak today, or at least a version of it.

        From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks.
        Serbs and Greeks you say, so why then were Macedonian associations in Bulgaria banned in the early 20th century and Macedonians imprisoned?

        I’ve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but I’ve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.
        I have not been to Toronto so I do not have the knowledge on the above mentioned Churches, but you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about them, would you care to tell us how many churches there are of the Macedono-Bulgarian, Macedonian and Bulgarian kind in Toronto today?

        I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.
        So it is political when you fight for your right for your own country with your own kinsmen inhabiting it, ie "Macedonia for the Macedonians"?
        Macedonian Truth Organisation

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15659

          #49
          Ohridski, there is no doubt there are similarities. But there is also no doubt the ancestry of these peoples is from different places. There is also no doubt which direction the language came from. I see Bulgarian as a dialect of Macedonian. Do you care to differ?
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • ohridski
            Junior Member
            • Nov 2009
            • 23

            #50
            Pardon me Ohridski, but are you an ethnic Bulgarian?
            By the looks of it you are.
            Iím an ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid.. one of my parents is from Pirin Macedonia. But, Iím definitely not anti-Bulgarian. Iíve been to Bulgaria, and several other Balkan nations. From what Iíve seen, Bulgarians are the ones who mostly refer to Macedonians as Macedonians and not Vardarians or FYROMians etc.


            Of course there is a link between us Macedonians and Bulgarians, a link which we share with other Slavic nations on the Balkan and else where, we also share many cultural traits whom we also share with our other Balkan neighbors. There are many factors, but you seem to be of the assumption that we are the same yet the Serbians are also quite similar to the Bulgarians.
            A little generic, donít you think? If we use this logic, we would be able to conclude that all ethnicities are linked as we are all humans. What I meant, is that it seems Macedonians and Bulgarians are most similar to each other than to any other group, be they Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, or Albanians. In fact, as far as I know, around 25% of Bulgarians are Macedonian descendents.


            All of us on the Balkans do share many of our neighbors characteristics, this does not however make us into one and the same.
            Our language similar, but that is not strange since Old Church Slavonic has it origins in the language spoken around Salonica Macedonia in the 9th century, the Slavic version of the Bible was translated in this language. This language is the one you speak today, or at least a version of it.
            From what Iíve read, Macedonians and Bulgarians were rather close in the past. I think its recent politics that have been driving a wedge between the two countries. Iíve also read that when Serbia and Greece occupied Macedonia in the early 1900ís, they aimed at claiming it as their own land. Bulgaria, however, seems to have promoted the idea of a Macedonia independent from the Ottomans. I also think that the past is reflected in more recent years, as Bulgaria was the first nation to recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name after it separated from Yugoslavia.


            Serbs and Greeks you say, so why then were Macedonian associations in Bulgaria banned in the early 20th century and Macedonians imprisoned?
            I donít know much about the Macedonian associations you speak of, but I havenít come across any sources, which state that Bulgarians imprisoned Macedonians solely due their ethnicity.
            I have not been to Toronto so I do not have the knowledge on the above mentioned Churches, but you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about them, would you care to tell us how many churches there are of the Macedono-Bulgarian, Macedonian and Bulgarian kind in Toronto today?

            As far as I know, there are three Macedono-Bulgarian churches and two Macedonian churches in Toronto. Iíve been to most of these. There is a separate Bulgarian and a separate Macedonian church in the surrounding areas. The interesting thing is that the Macedono-Bulgarian churches are the oldest and were built in the early 1900ís. The separate Bulgarian and Macedonian churches are more recent, they were built within the past 40-50 years or so. This is why I think that the differentiation between Macedonians and Bulgarians is mostly due to recent politics.


            So it is political when you fight for your right for your own country with your own kinsmen inhabiting it, ie "Macedonia for the Macedonians"?
            Coming to a Macedonian forum, with people who actually speak the language fluently, I thought the responses would be more knowledgeable. The statement above is completely out of context. The Macedonian revolutionaries were fighting against the Ottomans, and later against Serbs and Greeks, they didnít fight Bulgarians. The Bulgarian government supported a free and independent Macedonia.

            ĎMacedonia for the Macedoniansí has been used by people who have identified as ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Bulgarians alike.

            Comment

            • ohridski
              Junior Member
              • Nov 2009
              • 23

              #51
              I see Bulgarian as a dialect of Macedonian. Do you care to differ?
              Is this a serious statement!? I don't think anyone can claim that Bulgarian is a dialect of Macedonian, just like no one can claim that Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian.

              Both languages are based on regional dialects from within the countries today. The interesting thing is that Macedonian and Bulgarian are most similar to each other than to any other Slavic language. The Torlakian dialects also seem to share many similarities with Macedonian and Bulgarian that are absent from standard Serbian.

              Have you not read Misirkoff?

              Comment

              • Daskalot
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 4345

                #52
                Originally posted by ohridski View Post
                Iím an ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid.. one of my parents is from Pirin Macedonia. But, Iím definitely not anti-Bulgarian.
                Ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid Macedonia by one parent coming from Pirin Macedonia, shall we assume that your other parent is/was from Ohrid then?

                So how does this make you into an ETHNIC Canadian?
                Macedonian Truth Organisation

                Comment

                • TrueMacedonian
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3820

                  #53
                  Ohridski I see where you are coming from. I think all the peoples in the balkans share alot of the same cultural traits than they care to admit. We also derive alot of this culture from the 500 years of Ottoman rule. I think that politics has come between everyone in the Balkans. Before the rise of nationalism peoples referred to themselves regionally, as Romans or Christians, or through Socio-labor labels and rarely as "Serbians" "Croatians" "Macedonians" "Romanians" etc, in a nationalistic sense.
                  If we put a Croat and a Serb in a room together would we know who was who if we just walked into the middle of their conversation? Probably not. Their divide is a religious one. Not a linguistic one (all nationalism on the side, of course). However we cannot base ethnicity solely on linguistics. This is not a sort of "ethnicity radar".
                  Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3820

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                    Ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid Macedonia by one parent coming from Pirin Macedonia, shall we assume that your other parent is/was from Ohrid then?

                    So how does this make you into an ETHNIC Canadian?

                    The only way that could happen is if he was a Native Indian. I highly doubt that.
                    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                    Comment

                    • Daskalot
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 4345

                      #55
                      Originally posted by ohridski View Post
                      Is this a serious statement!? I don't think anyone can claim that Bulgarian is a dialect of Macedonian, just like no one can claim that Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian.

                      Both languages are based on regional dialects from within the countries today. The interesting thing is that Macedonian and Bulgarian are most similar to each other than to any other Slavic language. The Torlakian dialects also seem to share many similarities with Macedonian and Bulgarian that are absent from standard Serbian.

                      Have you not read Misirkoff?
                      If none can claim the one being a dialect of the other why are you then so keen on highlighting the similarities, would you be equally keen on highlighting the similarities between Croatian and Serbian to?

                      Macedonian shares many similarities with both Serbian and Bulgarian.
                      Macedonian Truth Organisation

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3820

                        #56
                        Originally posted by ohridski View Post
                        Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

                        Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

                        From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

                        I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.










                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon...c_Organization

                        Please don't use wiki because I could claim that Michael Jordan is chinese on there.

                        As for why Macedonians would tend to lean more towards the Bulgarians here's some reasons why - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1929
                        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                        Comment

                        • TrueMacedonian
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 3820

                          #57
                          So I guess now would be a good time to ask if in 1767 when the Ohrid Archbishopric was abolished was it to Hellenize the population in Macedonia?
                          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                          Comment

                          • ohridski
                            Junior Member
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 23

                            #58
                            Ethnicity is a learned trait, not an inherited one. Iíve spent most of my life in Canada and I feel Canadian. Iím not a Native Canadian, but Iím Canadian none the less!


                            If none can claim the one being a dialect of the other why are you then so keen on highlighting the similarities, would you be equally keen on highlighting the similarities between Croatian and Serbian to?
                            Why are you so keen on emphasizing the differences?

                            And whatís wrong with Wikipedia? I find it to be much more objective than some supposed scholars. And in this case, as Iíve mentioned, Iíve been to these churches.

                            Comment

                            • Bratot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2855

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                              Makedonin, You're right it doesnt but the Bulgarians are accusing us of stealing their churches.

                              Bratot, I thought Mike Ilich was Macedonian? He owns those Pizza shops throughout America im quite sure that he is part of MPO.

                              Why was he a fraud?? I thought he was a proud Macedonian??

                              I dont understand how can the Bulgarians take that church in Detroit?? Did they register it under the Bulgarian Orthodox Church?? The one in Toronto has Bulgarian flags all over it we are talking about 1910 here before Macedonia was divided.
                              Prolet,

                              Ilich is Macedonian, he is not the fraud - he was the victim of it.

                              Ask the Macedonian community about the case, I just talked recently to one of them who told me that story. I have no reasons not to believe him.



                              Originally posted by ohridski View Post
                              Ethnicity is a learned trait, not an inherited one. Iíve spent most of my life in Canada and I feel Canadian. Iím not a Native Canadian, but Iím Canadian none the less!




                              Why are you so keen on emphasizing the differences?

                              And whatís wrong with Wikipedia? I find it to be much more objective than some supposed scholars. And in this case, as Iíve mentioned, Iíve been to these churches.
                              Idi bre izgubi se od ovde, ebate stalkerot.

                              Zimi kurov slucajno se pojavi na temava, na dedo ti sestrata vakvi prikazni da i raskazuvas.


                              P.S. Old fashioned, bulgarian deja vu propaganda. Always claiming some ancestry from Ohrid(mk) or Pirin just to add some value to the propaganda, those kind of bullshits keep for yourself Ganchos.

                              Try to full around with some other ppl!Not here!
                              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                              Comment

                              • Prolet
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 5241

                                #60
                                So I guess now would be a good time to ask if in 1767 when the Ohrid Archbishopric was abolished was it to Hellenize the population in Macedonia?
                                No it not, it is a good thread though for our churches relating to the Bulgarian one and the first church built in Canada.

                                Please don't use wiki because I could claim that Michael Jordan is chinese on there.
                                I do agree its not exactly the most reliable source of information

                                Prolet,

                                Ilich is Macedonian, he is not the fraud - he was the victim of it.

                                Ask the Macedonian community about the case, I just talked recently to one of them who told me that story. I have no reasons not to believe him.
                                Bratot, Why is it that these Billionaires dont do anything for Macedonia?? With a few hundred thousand they could renovate 5-6 churches there. At the very least they can buy a house in Macedonia, look at the Greek Billionaires they've spent a fortune in Greece.

                                Speaking of Mike Ilich if he is part of MPO then it means he is pulling towards Bulgaria, sure its good to get his help in certain ways but i wouldn't want a person like him leading Macedonian Politics, we can be friends with the Bulgarians i got no problem with that and i encourage good neighborly relations however we are Macedonians and they are Bulgarians and we have to keep it at that.

                                We had a situation here were the Bulgarians took our church Sveti Kiril i Metodija in Northcote,Melbourne this church and land is valued at over $20 million its massive and we lost it because it was registered under BPC because we where still under Serbian Occupation. From what people tell me that church is now a ghost town, hardly anybody goes there.
                                МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                                Comment

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