Treaty of Nuilly, 1919 - any questions?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Any more info on these societies from Switzerland? I've only seen them mentioned in diplomatic negotiations.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The answers are all over the forum, use the search function you wombat. By the way, you're not the only Greek here, and even if you were, that doesn't exempt your stupidity. But I have a feeling that you won't be told for much longer.

[thessalo-niki]

What's the difference? The MTO forum is literally FULL of information relating to the Macedonian people, their heritage, identity, language, etc.

That implies that the answer was already given elsewhere. Where?

Your questions are as stupidly racist as the individual that has conjured them, is that your aim here, to question the Macedonian identity? If so, you'd best slither back to your sewer right now, or I can send you there myself.

Well, at least among a few kilos of threats and insults you DID post some grams of information. I'll be back on the essence of the thread.

Or, you can address all of the threads and questions about the Greek identity, which you have conveniently avoided. Take my word for it, your value here is ZERO and you will be forgotten within a few minutes after I ban you permanently, just like the rest of the racist maggots before you.

I think I'm the only Greek user in the forum, so I can't give all the answers alone. Maybe if you hadn't banned about 30(?) Greek users before me, you'd have more input. My attitude is... as anybody's. I read all threads, I don't really know when and why exactly I decide to enter a post and how to interact with other posters. You can keep your advice (when it has the tone of an order). I'll keep posting where I want to, though I think I can make a special favour, if it's so important for you.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Soldier of Macedon]

OK, no one did it officially in Bucharest or Neuilly Treaty.

The 'great' powers weren't interested in hearing Macedonian concerns, irresepective if the report came from their own people or Macedonians themselves.

The Greeks will not admit the Slav language in churches or schools; the inhabitants of Macedonia are in the great majority Slavs; they call themselves Macedonians, and what they desire and what we ardently desire for them is an autonomy under European control…….The only hope I can foresee is in strong autonomy, which neither Greeks nor Bulgars nor Serbs would dare attack; then the Macedonians, who are really intelligent and docile when they are well treated. would peacefully develop this beautiful fertile country... Surely Europe will not leave Macedonia under people whom the Macedonians hate, and whom they will continually fight.......Sister Augustine Bewicke on the Macedonian autonomy St. Paul's Hospital, Salonika, Public Record Office (London) - FO 608/44. Peace Conference (British delegation), January 4, 1919.

To His Excellency, Monsieur Clemanceau, President of the Council: It is duty of my honour, as a delegate of the Macedonian Committees to the High Peace Conference, to protest against the manoeuvres of certain suspicious persons who claim to speak in the name of Macedonia and represent some so-called "Executive Committee of the Macedonian Societies". Let me be allowed to indicate that the Macedonian emigrants to Bulgaria have over the past 30 years created quite a small class of Macedonians Bulgarized to such a point that they sacrifice completely the interests of their native land to those of Bulgaria. People who have two homelands are generally suspicious………Hence I have the honour to point out that the only Macedonian Societies free from any Bulgarian political influence, or any other, and representing loyally the whole of Macedonia, without distinction of language or religion, are the Macedonian Committees, which starting from the 1893 constituted the IMRO... It is in their name, and by no means in the name of Bulgaria or the Bulgarians, that I have already had the honour to request and now I am requesting again from Your Excellency to grant me an audience so that I may present to You the desires of the Macedonian people...
Protest from the Provisional representative of the IMRO to the Paris Peace Conference, April 10, 1919; Archimandrite Paul Christoff, General Vicar of Thrace, delegate of the Macedonian Committees. A. Lainovich, Jugoslavika u biblioteci za savremenu - medzhunarodnu dokumentaciju u Parizu - Godishen zbornik na FF, 24-25 (1972-73) pp. 88-89

Assembled at its plenary session and working in the name of the whole of the Macedonian people, without serving any foreign policy, energetically protest against the clause allowing the Macedonians the right to opt for Bulgarian nationality. We do not want to be made instruments of Bulgarian irredentism in Macedonia. Macedonia has never been a part of the present Bulgarian Kingdom. The Bulgarian diplomats, who bear part of the responsibilities for the misfortunes of the Macedonian population, are by no means qualified to intercede in favour of our cause and have no right to do it…….
Telegram from the General Council of the Macedonian Societies in Switzerland to the Peace Conference in Paris; Secretary: Bl. Bojadziev; Vice-Persident: G. Nikolov Lj. Lape, Aktivnosta na Glavniot odbor, p. 190, November 18, 1919

The Macedonians never received an audience.

I wasn't trying to negate the independent Macedonian identity, rather asking you to support it with evidence.

What's the difference? The MTO forum is literally FULL of information relating to the Macedonian people, their heritage, identity, language, etc. Your questions are as stupidly racist as the inidividual that has conjured them, is that your aim here, to question the Macedonian identity? If so, you'd best slither back to your sewer right now, or I can send you there myself.

Or, you can address all of the threads and questions about the Greek identity, which you have conveniently avoided. Take my word for it, your value here is ZERO and you will be forgotten within a few minutes after I ban you permanently, just like the rest of the racist maggots before you.

[TrueMacedonian]

sf toj e glupav. Toj misle deka e pameten koga toj e tolku glupav.

[sf.]

ТМ, овој мора да мисли дека сме будали.

[TrueMacedonian]

Why did you ban me? (that goes for all three times)
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

Because of you're game online to deny my people what is their God given birth right.

[thessalo-niki]

Why did you ban me? (that goes for all three times)
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[TrueMacedonian]

Thessalo-diki I am happy you are participating more and more on here. How about we fully explore this forum then and what it has to offer - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3841 would you care to join us here or are you selectively looking to deny the existance of Macedonians like you did elsewhere where I banned you?

[thessalo-niki]

Dont pretend to be naive by these kind of asking questions. As you very well know, Macedonia was already destructed by Russians and British in that era and people was under new occupation after the Turkish reign. So, whatever occupiers wishes, then it happens that way. Besides, it was the wish of some Macedonians to be "liberated" by the Bulgars, Greeks, Serbs or Russians. I don't think they expected their "liberators" to go away right after the war. So, they probably remained silent by leaving the decision about their destiny to them. They had no other choice at that point anyway. [But Hey, at least ROM is an independent country since 1991 while Greece is still not since 1821. Nothing more than a protectorate as of 2010]

Actually I didn’t know very well that “Macedonia was already destructed by Russians and British” (first time I hear that) neither that “ROM is an independent country since 1991 while Greece is still a protectorate since 1821” (second time I hear that)

Your country is supposedly a 3000 year old Greek land, right? So, let me ask then; Were there any Greek organization who had power to decide anything about so-called Greek lands between the year ~1370 to 1821?

No part can solely decide. But they can… do something by words and actions. Yes, between ~1370-1821 there were many individuals and institutions- organizations that collectively expressed the Greek (Roman) people, and depending on the period and circumstances took various stances ranging from revolt and resistance up to collaboration, conversion and integration into Ottomans. That would include mostly the Church, local Bishops and wealthy or respected individuals (called proesti), monks, authors, printers, active Greeks of the Diaspora, even Bays, Patriarchs and Dragomans with flip-flop acrobatic attitude or outlaws and bandits. By 18th-19th Century there were secret societies like “Filiki Eteria”.

You are playing the ignorant again. As you very well know, that critical period of "1905-1920" as you noted above, created by the terror environment of Bulgar and Greek bandits who supported by Russians and British. Especially after 1878, the war of Russia-Turkey, Ottoman Empire went bankrupt and totally lost the control of Balkans, even Anatolia too. Basically, there was no order at all in Macedonia and only the Albanian bashibozuks was in charge against the Greek and Bulgar terror groups and we know how the «order» of bashibozuks was. Turkish people didn't call them as "irregular mobs (bashibozuk)" without a reason.

So, i don't think anyone can blame poor indigenous people who just wanted this chaos to end in some way or other.

Well, you often see people protesting about Bucharest Treaty saying “Why were we wronged? Why weren’t we given some land?” My question was simple. Who asked for it? Who acted towards that direction? Because, from late 1870s Greek and Bulgarian action (including pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian Macedonians) was quite fierce, persistent and continuous in propaganda, education, religion, fighting and terrorism.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Bill77]

I wasn't trying to negate the independent Macedonian identity, rather asking you to support it with evidence. It wasn't rhetoric or ironic question, but a real one. While I have my suspicions, I don't know the answer and I'm (still) curiously expecting it.
I will indeed continue revisiting old threads. I didn't know that was a bad thing.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

Weasel......

[thessalo-niki]

This is the second thread you have brought back in the last couple of days, with the purpose of implicitly negating an independent Macedonian identity. I see your games and if I were moderator, you'd be banned from here.

I wasn't trying to negate the independent Macedonian identity, rather asking you to support it with evidence. It wasn't rhetoric or ironic question, but a real one. While I have my suspicions, I don't know the answer and I'm (still) curiously expecting it.
I will indeed continue revisiting old threads. I didn't know that was a bad thing.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[sf.]

While Daniel's answer implies an a posteriori collective feeling I wonder if there are any facts about it. So, WHO did represent the (non-Greek or non-Bulgarian) Macedonians. OK, no one did it officially in Bucharest or Neuilly Treaty. Yet, were there any organizations or, at least, any individuals that should have? Or tried to? Any names? Were there at least any public statements recorded in History?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_(1913)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...illy-sur-Seine

This is the second thread you have brought back in the last couple of days, with the purpose of implicitly negating an independent Macedonian identity. I see your games and if I were moderator, you'd be banned from here.

You've tried every trick in your book, but they're all transparent.

[Onur]

So, WHO did represent the (non-Greek or non-Bulgarian) Macedonians. OK, no one did it officially in Bucharest or Neuilly Treaty. Yet, were there any organizations or, at least, any individuals that should have? Or tried to? Any names? Were there at least any public statements recorded in History?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_(1913)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Neuilly-sur-Seine

Dont pretend to be naive by these kind of asking questions. As you very well know, Macedonia was already destructed by Russians and British in that era and people was under new occupation after the Turkish reign. So, whatever occupiers wishes, then it happens that way. Besides, it was the wish of some Macedonians to be "liberated" by the Bulgars, Greeks, Serbs or Russians. I don't think they expected their "liberators" to go away right after the war. So, they probably remained silent by leaving the decision about their destiny to them. They had no other choice at that point anyway. [But Hey, at least ROM is an independent country since 1991 while Greece is still not since 1821. Nothing more than a protectorate as of 2010]



Let me pretend to be as naive as you and ask a similar question. I think this can count as an answer to your other post about Young Turk`s parliamentary too;

Your country is supposedly a 3000 year old Greek land, right? So, let me ask then; Were there any Greek organization who had power to decide anything about so-called Greek lands between the year ~1370 to 1821? "were there any organizations or, at least, any individuals that should have? Or tried to? Any names? Were there at least any public statements recorded in History?"

"They came as liberators and we excepted them with open arms" (post#33)
"When a woman gets ganged raped, is she asked which position she prefers?" (post#39)
These are rather conflicting descriptions. Maybe you're blaming a whole generation or projecting present to the past. I'm not sure, so I'll put it differently. During the critical period 1905-1920 which are your heroes in Macedonia (if any)? What did they say? What did they do?

You are playing the ignorant again. As you very well know, that critical period of "1905-1920" as you noted above, created by the terror environment of Bulgar and Greek bandits who supported by Russians and British. Especially after 1878, the war of Russia-Turkey, Ottoman Empire went bankrupt and totally lost the control of Balkans, even Anatolia too. Basically, there was no order at all in Macedonia and only the Albanian bashibozuks was in charge against the Greek and Bulgar terror groups and we know how was the "order" of bashibozuks. Turkish people didn't call them as "irregular mobs(bashibozuk)" without a reason.

So, i don't think anyone can blame poor indigenous people who just wanted this chaos to end in some way or other.

[thessalo-niki]

"They came as liberators and we excepted them with open arms" (post#33)
"When a woman gets ganged raped, is she asked which position she prefers?" (post#39)
These are rather conflicting descriptions. Maybe you're blaming a whole generation or projecting present to the past. I'm not sure, so I'll put it differently. During the critical period 1905-1920 which are your heroes in Macedonia (if any)? What did they say? What did they do?
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul