Slavic Migration

[Struja]

"It is called Slavic ,because it uses a Slavic tongue,a language which the Immigrant Nomads brought with them...

ur such a moron....

Wasn’t it Claudius Ptolemaeus in the year of 117 AD when he 1st mentions the tribes as Slavanoi and Soubenoi, isn’t this the earliest references of "Slavs"??? but yet they arrived in the Balkans during the 6th ct AD!!

Don’t you find it odd TN that there was a form of Slavic culture in the heart of the Roman Empire during 1st ct AD?

Btw, Claudius Ptolemaeus was in Roman Egypt when he wrote book 8.

[TerraNova]

ur such a moron....

Wasn’t it Claudius Ptolemaeus in the year of 117 AD when he 1st mentions the tribes as Slavanoi and Soubenoi, isn’t this the earliest references of "Slavs"??? but yet they arrived in the Balkans during the 6th ct AD!!

Don’t you find it odd TN that there was a form of Slavic culture in the heart of the Roman Empire during 1st ct AD?

Btw, Claudius Ptolemaeus was in Roman Egypt when he wrote book 8.

Macedonia is described in the second book of Ptolemaeus.

PS-117 is 2nd century AD...you ve learned something today mr.Genious

[makedonin]

From:

http://i39.tinypic.com/svgd94.gif

Definition for the English derivate for Slave:

SLAVE: "Eskleso (?) include; as much as to say, kept under lock and key: R. Klao, claudo: - Father- Labbe thinks that this word might have been also derived from Sclavonia, the people whereof, after having been subdued, were sold over all the West:

The main pool for Slaves for the Romans and later Byzantines were the territories of the so called Slavs.

The Thracians and Macedonians for example were the best slave Gladiators of Rome.....

[Magedon]

Spartak was Thracian or granpa of modern western-slavonic bulgarians - not the tataroid type - Maybe even Macedonian, who knows... Am interested how were the Serbs called then and where were they then???Are Tribali perhas later Serbs?

[I of Macedon]

Fact remains we know that there were invaders and at the most based on current data and evidence the possibility of some short or general population movements all over the Balkans…This of course is in know way at all unusual considering also the greater part of human history, when considering the movements all over the Mediterranean and the rest of the world of the Romans, Greeks, Macedonians, Turks, Arabs and then broaden that to Mongolians, Englishmen, Spaniards, Portuguese etc. These are all normal circumstances throughout human history for particular reasons and yet the pre-existing populations that the above have people have conquered and ruled over still exist.

But to allude to theoretical (key word theoretical) migrations on an extraordinary scale encompassing half of Europe while somehow performing an unprecedented mass extermination of the pre-existing population (I guess the “Slavs” had no use for the pre-existing populations, even as working slaves), a conception somehow overlooked by historians of the middle ages is quite frankly baffling, illogical and bordering the lines or beyond of unparalleled delusions.

The short population movements (assuming it occurred in the 6th century and perhaps not thousands of years earlier – another alternative considered by geneticists in the movement of R1A) is perhaps more acceptable and considering genetic studies of southern Slavic populations such as Serbs, Macedonians, and Bulgarians which are CLEARLY separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of Slavic populations. This is explained by the contribution to the Y chromosomes of people who were in the Balkan region before the so called Slavic expansion. This means that if there was a population movement in the 6th century (again not considering populations movements from thousands of years before), then those people would have melted into the pre-existing population, there is simply know other reasonable explanation considering genetic (not including for the moment the other science fields) findings specifically in the Balkans and the known genetic fact considering the other haplogroups (in the people of the Balkans) places the current populations as natives in the region long before the so called “Migration.”

Let’s not forget that customs and traditions etc can always be brought from the outside and vise versa, just like the ancient Greeks adopting Egyptian Gods and the Phoenician alphabet, and the Romans adopting their Gods from the Greeks. Even Alexander tried to implement Asian customs on to the Macedonians and started to wear Persian Clothing. Ptolmy’s dynasty adopted Egyptian traditions instead of implementing their own traditions on the Egyptians. Cleopatra spoke Egyptian and worshiped Egyptian gods (one of the main reasons for those who are not well enlightened in Egyptian history would believe her to be of purely Egyptian descent). Look at the Turkish influences we have today, for instance in our cuisines. Long ago Russian royalty used to speak French, look at the Italian, Asian and American influences we have today etc.

[Selim]

1)Why Slavic place names are NOT found in Macedonia (as well as in Greece) before 7th-8th century AD?...but they do in significant numbers after this time? (at which time,movement of Sclavenes is recorded in the sources)

2)Why the Slavs are described as PAGANS ?
If the slavic-speaking population was actually the descendants of ancient Macedonians...they would be already Christians.

(Remember that Apostle Paul had already started baptizing the Macedonians in the 1st cent AD. (writing letters to Thessalonians in Greek.. )

Well, the answers are very simple:
1. Because there were no Slavs before those centuries
2.Because they were pagans when they arrived on the Balkans

I have few more questions:
1.Why do the modern Macedonians speak Slavic language?
2.Why do the modern Macedonians use the cyrillic letters?
3.Why do the modern Macedonians (still) practice old Slavic pagan customs,hidden behind the christian ones?

[Soldier of Macedon]

1. Because there were no Slavs before those centuries

Your answers are not accurate, but they are simplistic. Seldom is history as simple as some wish it to be.

Of course there were people speaking the language which, after the 6th century, commonly came to be known as 'Slavic', and there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that they migrated from anywhere, but instead, had always lived around the greater regions of the Danube. Several of these tribes had indeed penetrated south into the East Roman Empire, but past historical accounts including some linguistic elements suggest a pre-existing commonality prior to these invasions.

Perhaps you should read some of the other threads on this forum in relation to this topic, so you can familiarise yourself with it a little more, rather than making broad statements that you seemingly don't feel the need to corroborate.

Macedonians are Macedonians, unless it is a topic that requires distinction between the ancient and modern era, there is no need to include a prefix such as 'modern' in every sentence you make mention of the Macedonians.

Macedonians speak the Macedonian language, which has naturally evolved in the land as the native language of the population. It belongs to the Slavic or Balto-Slavic linguistic group. We use the Cyrillic letters because natives of our region created them.

With regard to your 3rd question, I don't see your point. Please elaborate.

By the way, welcome to the forum, 'Selim', perhaps you will now be so kind as to reveal your own identity so we can ask why, what, who and where in turn.

[Risto the Great]

Selim gave us some very simple answers.
He has not elaborated.
I can only assume he learned these answers in a kafana somewhere.

[osiris]

i just had a very good coffee in a kafana rtg, its time you me and som had a meal together, so hurry up mate you are the only rich one here so you come to melbourne.

the slavic migration theory is dead, there are many who are still applying mouth to mouth trying to revive it, because they need it around even as a corpse, to help convince them we are not really entitled to be macedonian.

its a political need something like my daily coffee fix.i

dont tell me terra the nova is back, she or he or it just cant help her racist leanings, describing the slavs who according to her view must have been powerful enough to settle unimpeded throughout the roman empire even in the heart of hellas, as immigrant nomads, something like the bushman of the kalahari i presume.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am curious to know why somebody posing as a Muslim has taken an active interest in the Macedonians.

Bre Selim Aga, jeni ju një shqiptare? Ή είσαι άλλο Νεοελληνικών κλόουν?

[I of Macedon]

Has anyone ever read about the Bulgarian profile. I found it quite logical in terms of their ancestors (genetics), although I could question some historical points of references stated, but nevertheless.......


According to some 20th century researchers as William Z. Ripley, Carleton S. Coon and Bertil Lundman the Bulgarians are predominantly Mediterranean people, with unexplained Pre-Pontic, East-Baltic, and Nordic strains, which roots goes back to the Neolithic.However data from Bulgarian mitochondrial DNA studies suggest that a human demographic expansion occurred sequentially in the Middle East, through Anatolia, to the rest of Europe (Bulgaria included).

The rate estimates date of this expansion in times ranging around 50,000 years ago, corresponding to the arrival of anatomically modern humans in Europe. Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup studies suggest an additional route of migration into Europe from Central Asia, via Russia, circa 40,000 years ago. Also according to 21st century studies of their DNA data, the genetic background of the Bulgarians has classical eastern Mediterranean composition.

In physical appearance, the Bulgarian population is characterized by the features of the southern European anthropological type with some additional influences. Genetically, modern Bulgarians are more closely related to other Balkan populations (Macedonians, Greeks, Romanians, Albanians and Croatians) than to the rest of the Europeans.The Bulgarians also have minor similarities with other Mediterranean populations such as Armenians, Italians, Anatolians, Cretans and Sardinians.

According to Eupedia, the Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup results about Bulgarians are the following: R1b - 18%, R1a - 14%, I - 37%, J2 - 17%, E1b1b - 12%.[83] In this way, a majority (>2/3) of the Bulgarians belong to one of the three major European Y-DNA haplogroups -- I, R1a and R1b. All three groups migrated to Europe during the Upper Paleolithic, around 30,000 BC. Around 10,000 ago, some neolithic lineages, originating in the Middle East, as J2 and E1b1b, have brought the agriculture to Europe, including today Bulgaria.

From historical angle the modern Bulgarians have descended from three main ethnic groups which mixed in the Balkans during the 6th - 10th century: local tribes, known as the Thracians; Slavic invaders, who gave their language to the modern Bulgarians; and the Bulgars, from whom the ethnonym and the early statehood were inherited.

The ethnic contribution of the indigenous Thracian and Daco-Getic population, who had lived on the territory of modern Bulgaria and established here the Odrysian kingdom has been long debated among the scientists during the 20th century. However by the 5th century BC, the Thracian presence was pervasive enough to have made Herodotus (book 5) call them the second-most numerous people in the part of the world known by him (after the Indians). Some recent genetic studies reveal that these peoples have indeed made a significant contribution to the genes of the modern Bulgarian population. The ancient languages of the local people had already gone extinct before the arrival of the Slavs, and their cultural influence was highly reduced due to the repeated barbaric invasions on the Balkans during the early Middle Ages by Goths, Celts, Huns, and Sarmatians, accompanied by persistent hellenization, romanisation and later slavicisation. The Celts also expanded down the Danube river and its tributaries in 3rd century BC. They had established a state on part of the territory of modern Bulgaria with capital Tylis, which they ruled for over a century.

The easternmost South Slavs became part of the ancestors of the modern Bulgarians, which however, are genetically clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the most Slavic peoples. This phenomenon is explained by “the genetic contribution of the people who lived in the region before the Slavic expansion” . The frequency of the proposed Slavic Haplogroup R1a1 ranges to 14.7% in Bulgaria.

The Bulgars, a people stemming from the ancient Royal Utigurs lineage that utilized the Orkhon written language, conquered territories in Eurasia between the 2nd and 7th centuries AD and thus gave birth to multiple kingdoms in both Asia and Europe, including the First Bulgarian Empire. It is hypothesized that they were related to the Huns and were probably of Altaic descent originally from the Northern portions of Central Asia. During the 2nd century the Bulgars migrated from Central Asia into the North Caucasian steppe. It has to be mentioned that some Bulgarian scientists have recently hypothesized a Bactrian descent of the Bulgars by postulating that their origins can be traced back to the Ancient Kingdom of Balh. Between 377 and 453 they took part in the Hunnic raids on Central and Western Europe.

Anthropological data collected from early Bulgar necropolises from Dobrudja, Crimea and the Ukrainian steppe shows that Bulgars were a high-statured Caucasoid people with a small Mongoloid admixture, and practiced artificial cranial deformation of the round type.After Attila's death in 453, and the subsequent disintegration of the Hunnic Empire, the Bulgar tribes dispersed mostly to the eastern and southeastern parts of Europe. In the late 7th century, some Bulgar tribes, led by Asparukh and others, led by Kouber, permanently settled in the Balkans, and formed the ruling classe of First Bulgarian Empire in 680-681.

It is possible that only a cultural and low genetic Bulgar influence was brought into the region, without modifying the genetic background of the local population.The minor portions of Asian genes present within some modern Bulgarians, were likely introduced from the Bulgars and other steppe's peoples who also contributed to the Bulgarian ethnogenesis, as numbers of Kumans, Pechenegs and Avars, which is indicated through the limited presence of some rare alleles and haplotypes.

[Selim]

Your answers are not accurate, but they are simplistic. Seldom is history as simple as some wish it to be.

Of course there were people speaking the language which, after the 6th century, commonly came to be known as 'Slavic', and there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that they migrated from anywhere, but instead, had always lived around the greater regions of the Danube. Several of these tribes had indeed penetrated south into the East Roman Empire, but past historical accounts including some linguistic elements suggest a pre-existing commonality prior to these invasions.

Perhaps you should read some of the other threads on this forum in relation to this topic, so you can familiarise yourself with it a little more, rather than making broad statements that you seemingly don't feel the need to corroborate.

Macedonians are Macedonians, unless it is a topic that requires distinction between the ancient and modern era, there is no need to include a prefix such as 'modern' in every sentence you make mention of the Macedonians.

Macedonians speak the Macedonian language, which has naturally evolved in the land as the native language of the population. It belongs to the Slavic or Balto-Slavic linguistic group. We use the Cyrillic letters because natives of our region created them.

With regard to your 3rd question, I don't see your point. Please elaborate.

By the way, welcome to the forum, 'Selim', perhaps you will now be so kind as to reveal your own identity so we can ask why, what, who and where in turn.

My mistake, I meant to say that there were not such people at the Balkans at that time.
I don't know about any "historical accounts including linguistic elements" about pre-slavic Slavs in the Balkan area. Would you be so kind and show me some?

Macedonians are Macedonians, and that is true, but I had to make differences between ancient and modern Macedonians to make sure that my questions will be understood as I want them to be-to stress that they refer to today's Macedonians.

My third question refers to today's "orthodox" holidays and rituals celebrated and performed in Macedonia,full of Slavic pre - christian tradition, such as Koleda, Vasilica, Pokladi, Dodole,.....
You say that Macedonian language evolved naturally. Look at the language that Kiril Pejčinović usd, then look at the language K.P. Misirkov used, and finally, look at the language that is in use in Macedonia today. I'm sure you'll notice really big differences. So, how did those differences arise? There weren't so big differences 150 years ago in the area of today's Serbia, Bulgaria and Macedonia. I'll tell you why: Because of the politics. If you want to form Macedonian nation, different from the Bulgarian and Serbian, you must develop Macedonian language, different from the Bulgarian and Serbian.
And I want to ask another question, related to your answer: What was the purpose of using those letters by our nation?
I'm a Macedonian

[Selim]

I am curious to know why somebody posing as a Muslim has taken an active interest in the Macedonians.

Bre Selim Aga, jeni ju një shqiptare? Ή είσαι άλλο Νεοελληνικών κλόουν?

Did you forget (or, did you know) that there is a huge number of Macedonian Muslims? Can they be also interested in Macedonia? What if they were Buddhists? Would they be allowed to be interested in Macedonian history then?
Make differences between nation and religion.
The right thing to wonder would be: I am curious to know why somebody posing as a Macedonian has taken an active interest in the Greeks, Bulgarians, Romans, Egyptians,.....
Ne razbiram ni šiptarski, ni grčki,

[Selim]

Selim gave us some very simple answers.
He has not elaborated.
I can only assume he learned these answers in a kafana somewhere.

Simple questions - simple answers.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I respect all Macedonians, regardless of religion. If you are a Macedonian of the Islamic faith and you still identify as a Macedonian then good for you, we need more like you.

As a Macedonian myself, being Macedonian comes first above all else, region, religion, etc.

My third question refers to today's "orthodox" holidays and rituals celebrated and performed in Macedonia,full of Slavic pre - christian tradition, such as Koleda, Vasilica, Pokladi, Dodole,.....

I don't see your point, several Christians have pre-Christian customs and rituals, they are ingrained in Christianity itself. What are you trying to get at, some sort of Islam vs Orthodox topic? Which one is better?

You say that Macedonian language evolved naturally. Look at the language that Kiril Pejčinović usd, then look at the language K.P. Misirkov used, and finally, look at the language that is in use in Macedonia today. I'm sure you'll notice really big differences.

Pejcinovic and Misirkov were not from the same parts of Macedonia, the former was peripheral and the latter more central, of course dialects will differ. You do know that dialects are different, don't you? Which language used in Macedonia? The literary language? Please show me how different this language is to that of Misirkov, I want to see these great differences.

If you want to form Macedonian nation, different from the Bulgarian and Serbian, you must develop Macedonian language, different from the Bulgarian and Serbian.

And likewise for the rest of them. At least Macedonian is based on central dialects, Bulgarian is based on the far eastern dialects of the Black Sea shore, and whatever Serbian is based on it sure isn't closer to Macedonian than any of the rest surrounding the country. The Macedonian language, as with all literary languages, was standardised. This is what happens in all countries, you can't have everybody speaking their own dialects in official communications, there must be unison.

And I want to ask another question, related to your answer: What was the purpose of using those letters by our nation?

The answer is rather obvious, but you seem to have already formed an opinion, why don't you tell me rather than playing tango with your words?

The right thing to wonder would be: I am curious to know why somebody posing as a Macedonian has taken an active interest in the Greeks, Bulgarians, Romans, Egyptians,....

You did not make it known that you are a Macedonian. You did not come across as a Macedonian by the tone of your post. You did not mention Greeks, Bulgarians, Romans or Egyptians in your first post. Therefore, I wonder correctly.

You seem to be disgruntled about something mate, are you coming here with an agenda or is it that you don't trust Orthodox Macedonians, sho ti e tebe, ako si Makedonec pa togash sme brakja, sho tuku mi zborate so takov odnos, sho te bodi?