Slavic Migration

[makedonin]

Teriaky, you are losing it!

You wrote:

Originally Posted by TerraNova View Post
se (leaving only the islands outside) ...
After the reconquest and excursions of Justinian II,Constantine V ,and the following emperors, Byzantine rule was forced in the SCLAVENIAI ,many Slavs expelled to Asia Minor, Greeks were transfered to Thrace and Macedonia from other places/....

And I asked you:

Show me a source that confirms your story of Greeks being settled in Thrace and Macedonia and from other places!!!!

And you come with:

Try reading Thucydides and Herodotus for the establishment of the Kingdom of Macedon.
When Macedonians passed Vermion mt and expelled the Thracian tribes of the region.
Try reading THEOPHANES.
He mentions transfer of population ,from all Themata,to Sclaveniai.

[/B])

Before 836 Thema Thessalonikis is being founded.

What does Herodotus or Thucydides lost here in this time space continium of yours

and for Theofanes, you always ask from us to serve you the right quotings either with link or with right passage on the plate, do what you preach

656-657 -Constas II : invades Sclaveniai and defeats the Slavs. "epestrateusen pollous kai ypetaxen"
(made a campaign and subdued many)

Defeating is not equal mass murder or ethnic cleansing as you would like to see it. Seems that this Slavs remained there where they were. No mention of them being expelled or replaced with Greek Speakers !!!!!!!!

Constantinos IV: Excursion against Strymonites and Ryghinoi Slavs,in Macedonia.

Well he made a little pickning agianst the Strymonites and Ryghioni Slavs in Macedonia, what does that prove?????????? No mention of them being expelled or replaced with Greek Speakers !!!!!!!!

Justinian II-Transfers cavalry and infantry from Asia Minor in order to "tous te Boulgarous kai tas Sclavenias aihmalotisai" (to capture the Bulgarians and the Sclaveniai)
After he defeated the Bulgarians,moved towards Thessalonica... "polla plithi ,ton sklavon paralavon" (taking many crowds of Slavs)
**Theophanes

Transfer of cavalry and infantry from Asia Minor does not means that this so called Boulgaros and Sclavenias were replaced with them !!!!!!!! So he took them to Tessaloniki, it is in your territory of yours today. How does that makes us more Slavs than you?????????? You just proved that he maked whole of Macedonia more Slavic !!! How comes that your State tells us that Macedonia was 4000 years Greek????

what does that proves????

759 -Constantinos V . Defeats the Slavs and subdues Sclaveniai of Macedonia ,forcing them to pay taxes.

again subduing and defeating is not equal exterminating. I can provide you a quotes where Alexander speaks of defeat and subdueing of Hellens, would you agree that he meant that he exterminated all of the Hellenes???? Forcing them to pay taxes tells the story that they wre not exterminated. No mention of them being expelled or replaced with Greek Speakers !!!!!!!!

809-Nikephoros I -Commands a transfer of population from all Themata ,towards Sclaveniai ,in order to weaken the Slavic element of the region.
(September 809-Easter 810)

Sounds promissing to promote your Idea, but you fail to provide source Quotation, and you would like us to believe you on your word, cause you are how was it, Promoting PhD on History ?????


What have you proved? That there were some Groupations called Sclavenia by the Byzantines, who are credible.. what were they, who were they?

nothing have you provided.

Should we waste more time with you????

I am off......

[TerraNova]

and for Theofanes, you always ask from us to serve you the right quotings either with link or with right passage on the plate, do what you preach




Defeating is not equal mass murder or ethnic cleansing as you would like to see it. Seems that this Slavs remained there where they were. No mention of them being expelled or replaced with Greek Speakers !!!!!!!!

Well he made a little pickning agianst the Strymonites and Ryghioni Slavs in Macedonia, what does that prove?????????? No mention of them being expelled or replaced with Greek Speakers !!!!!!!!

Transfer of cavalry and infantry from Asia Minor does not means that this so called Boulgaros and Sclavenias were replaced with them !!!!!!!! So he took them to Tessaloniki, it is in your territory of yours today. How does that makes us more Slavs than you?????????? You just proved that he maked whole of Macedonia more Slavic !!! How comes that your State tells us that Macedonia was 4000 years Greek????

what does that proves????

again subduing and defeating is not equal exterminating. I can provide you a quotes where Alexander speaks of defeat and subdueing of Hellens, would you agree that he meant that he exterminated all of the Hellenes???? Forcing them to pay taxes tells the story that they wre not exterminated. No mention of them being expelled or replaced with Greek Speakers !!!!!!!!

These are not proof of assimilation only ,but of the migration.
Since all Sclaveniai,and the struggle against Slavs (NOT AGAINST MACEDONIANS...! ) starts after the mention in the sources (eg Miracles of St.Demetrius) of massive migrations of Slavs.
(they were more numerous from all the people of Achaea,Macedonia and Thracia provinces of Roman empire according to the Miracles <13.116> )

Sounds promissing to promote your Idea, but you fail to provide source Quotation, and you would like us to believe you on your word, cause you are how was it, Promoting PhD on History ?????

I ve never "failed" in quotation,since i didn't promise it-i dont have sooo much time to waste,to answer with quotation in every one of the 100 ppl here.
I ve read it in Theophanes,and if you are really interested you can still find it.

Try these
Theophanes Chronicle .
364. 13,
383. 21,
386. 13,
400. 19 και 28,
456. 28,
461.5-6,
471. 3,
484. 20 and494. 18.

PS-I don't have a PhD on History-it's on a totally irrelevant area of science /i am 1st year student of History school,although i ve never attended any class cause of work.
I hope i ll do it some time.

What have you proved? That there were some Groupations called Sclavenia by the Byzantines, who are credible.. what were they, who were they?

nothing have you provided.

I provided you the names of several Sclaveniai ,All of them are first mentioned after the Slavic invasions (noted in Simocatta,Miracles of St.Demetrius,and several other writers)

So...what were these "Sclavenes" /"Slavs" according to you????
Macedonians... ?



Some more quotation about these invisible for you Slavs...:

The nations of the Slavs and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs…They live among nearly impenetrable forests, rivers, lakes, and marshes, and have made the exits from their settlements branch out in many directions because of the dangers they might face…They live like bandits and love to carry out attacks against their enemies in densely wooded, narrow, and steep places…They are completely faithless and have no regard for treaties, which they agree to more out of fear than by gifts.

Maurice's Strategikon,
Book 11.4

By means of such a rumor and the anxiety of their chiefs, each of whom will be worried about his own problems, they will not have the opportunity to get together and cause trouble for our army. Do not station these troops close to the Danube, for the enemy would find out how few they are and consider them unimportant. Nor would they be very far away, so their will be no delay, it becomes necessary, to have them join the invading army. They should stay about a day’s march from the Danube. This army should cross over into enemy territory suddenly and make its invasion on clear and level ground.
Book 11.4

PROCOPIUS


When the Eruli, being defeated by the Lombards in the above−mentioned battle, migrated from their ancestral homes, some of them, as has been told by me above,made their home in the country of Illyricum, but the rest were averse to crossing the Ister (=Danube) River, but settled at the very extremity of the world; at any rate, these men, led by many of the royal blood, traversed all the nations of the Sclaveni one after the other, and after next crossing a large tract of barren country, they came to the Varni, as they are called. After these they passed by the nations of the Dani, without suffering violence at the hands of the barbarians there. Coming thence to the ocean, they took to the sea, and putting in at Thule, remained there on the island.

Book V
XVI,192

This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbor of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni and Antae, who are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks."

Book V,
XXVII, 134

For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans.

Book VII, XIII

[Struja]

These are not proof of assimilation only ,but of the migration.
Since all Sclaveniai,and the struggle against Slavs (NOT AGAINST MACEDONIANS...! ) starts after the mention in the sources (eg Miracles of St.Demetrius) of massive migrations of Slavs.
(they were more numerous from all the people of Achaea,Macedonia and Thracia provinces of Roman empire according to the Miracles <13.116> )

you've got no idea kid... what a f'en joke you've become...

So...what were these "Sclavenes" /"Slavs" according to you????
Macedonians... ?

nah there just greekslavs like yourself.

Some more quotation about these invisible for you Slavs...:

slavs? yep this moron is a major fuckwit...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Droguvites,Smoleanoi,Ryghinoi,Strymonites,Sagoutat oi,Velegezites...
All mentioned in the sources.

656-657 -Constas II : invades Sclaveniai and defeats the Slavs. "epestrateusen pollous kai ypetaxen"
(made a campaign and subdued many)

Constantinos IV: Excursion against Strymonites and Ryghinoi Slavs,in Macedonia.

Justinian II-Transfers cavalry and infantry from Asia Minor in order to "tous te Boulgarous kai tas Sclavenias aihmalotisai" (to capture the Bulgarians and the Sclaveniai)
After he defeated the Bulgarians,moved towards Thessalonica... "polla plithi ,ton sklavon paralavon" (taking many crowds of Slavs)
**Theophanes

759 -Constantinos V . Defeats the Slavs and subdues Sclaveniai of Macedonia ,forcing them to pay taxes.

782-783-Logothetes Stavrakios

809-Nikephoros I -Commands a transfer of population from all Themata ,towards Sclaveniai ,in order to weaken the Slavic element of the region.
(September 809-Easter 810)

Before 836 Thema Thessalonikis is being founded.

Hhmm, no, that's not acceptable. You are a liar - Hey, I am only playing your game here, last time you contested the quotes I produced and when I corroborated them you disappeared like a little rat. Now you provide FULL texts and sources, not these 'cut and paste' jokes you have showed us here, I want to see the proper sentences and context of the sources. Sorry, after all of your lies your word is no more credible than the next reptile that slithers in.

Oh by the way, do highlight where in any of them is mentioned the combination of words "SLAVIC MIGRATION", as the false title of this thread so misleadingly suggests.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The nations of the Slavs and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs…They live among nearly impenetrable forests, rivers, lakes, and marshes, and have made the exits from their settlements branch out in many directions because of the dangers they might face…They live like bandits and love to carry out attacks against their enemies in densely wooded, narrow, and steep places…They are completely faithless and have no regard for treaties, which they agree to more out of fear than by gifts.

Maurice's Strategikon,
Book 11.4

And?

By means of such a rumor and the anxiety of their chiefs, each of whom will be worried about his own problems, they will not have the opportunity to get together and cause trouble for our army. Do not station these troops close to the Danube, for the enemy would find out how few they are and consider them unimportant. Nor would they be very far away, so their will be no delay, it becomes necessary, to have them join the invading army. They should stay about a day’s march from the Danube. This army should cross over into enemy territory suddenly and make its invasion on clear and level ground.
Book 11.4

PROCOPIUS

The fact that tribes known as Slavic lived around the river Danube is well known, as is the fact that most people on both sides of the Danube were culturally and linguistically related since antiquity.

When the Eruli, being defeated by the Lombards in the above−mentioned battle, migrated from their ancestral homes, some of them, as has been told by me above,made their home in the country of Illyricum, but the rest were averse to crossing the Ister (=Danube) River, but settled at the very extremity of the world; at any rate, these men, led by many of the royal blood, traversed all the nations of the Sclaveni one after the other, and after next crossing a large tract of barren country, they came to the Varni, as they are called. After these they passed by the nations of the Dani, without suffering violence at the hands of the barbarians there. Coming thence to the ocean, they took to the sea, and putting in at Thule, remained there on the island.

Book V
XVI,192

What's your point?

This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbor of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni and Antae, who are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks."

Book V,
XXVII, 134

So? Are these sixteen hundred horsemen the ancestors of all the Slavic speaking people in the Balkans? WOW!

For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans.

Book VII, XIII

So what, these quotes you have provided thus far do nothing to further your point, battles, invasions, rebellions, etc happened all of the time. What you are trying to indicate is that there is some apparent 'boundary' along the Danube river that separates completely the people of opposite sides where it concerns language, culture and history. Was there some great wall built along the river? Tell me, I am interested to know how someone who implies that he is a student of history can be so stupidly wrong.

[makedonin]

These are not proof of assimilation only ,but of the migration.
Since all Sclaveniai,and the struggle against Slavs (NOT AGAINST MACEDONIANS...

There is no mention of Migration either, how can it be prove of some.

As for there is no mention of struggle against Macedonians, how could there be one in the perverted Picture of the Byzantine writers.

For them Macedonians lived in Eastern Thrace, Bulgarians lived from Lerin and Castoria till South Serbia Kosovo and East Romania,while there were Mizians and Prstrionians where today there are Bulgarians etc. !!!!!!!

What does that tell us about this Byzantine writters !?

In all those cases, ethnicity was a function of power in a very concrete and simple way. Ethnies were not classified in terms of language or culture, but in terms of their military and political potential. Names were important, therefore, because they gave meaning to categories of political classification. ...............................

Emperor Maurice’s campaigns of the late 500s against all potential and true enemies (Avars and Sclavenes) may have blurred this difference or at least made it negligible. In the eyes of the author of the Strategikon, the Sclavenes and the Antes not only had the same customs, weapons, and tactics, but both were treated as potential enemies. In the light of these remarks, the very nature of a Sclavene ethnicity
needs serious reconsideration. Procopius and later authors may have used this ethnic name as an umbrella-term for various groups living north of the Danube frontier, which were neither “Antes,” nor “Huns” or “Avars”.

......................................

That no Slavic ethnicity existed in the eyes of any sixth- or seventh-century Byzantine author, which could be compared to the modern concept of ethnicity, is shown by Pseudo-Caesarius’ usage of the term “Sclavenes”. To him, the opposite of “Sclavenes” is „RipianoŰ, which was not an ethnie, but a name for the inhabitants of the Roman province of Dacia Ripensis.The contrast is that between a group living north and another living south of the Danube frontier, to which Pseudo- Caesarius referred by the biblical name Physon. His focus was on the specific location, within one and the same climate, of groups supposedly different in customs and religious life. The same is true for the author of
the Strategikon.


Source:

The Making of the Slavs, Curta page 347, 348

This Byzantine writters were naming people according to their needs

Do you get the picture.......

You are still to provide Quote where it say's that this Sklavenes and Antes were Migrating from somewhere ..........

[Daskalot]

Thus the Voulgaroi are just that Vulgar or with another word peasants/common folk, as the Serbs were called by the Roman Emperors, Servoi because the were serfs to the Romans.

It is pretty simple, but modern Neohellens are clouding the truth with their myth making.

[Venom]

TerribleNova. Didn't you resign like a couple of days ago?

[TerraNova]

And?
So what, these quotes you have provided thus far do nothing to further your point, battles, invasions, rebellions, etc happened all of the time. What you are trying to indicate is that there is some apparent 'boundary' along the Danube river that separates completely the people of opposite sides where it concerns language, culture and history. Was there some great wall built along the river? Tell me, I am interested to know how someone who implies that he is a student of history can be so stupidly wrong.

Well you know what's the fact?
That almost all history schools on planet Earth share the shame view with me.
So someone is stupidly wrong. Either all of them and i or you.

Also...you wonder about this "boundary" as you call it-Of course there could be cultural or population movement between the two sides of Danube.
Is this enough to come to the conclusion that Macedonians were slavic speaking??
95% of the placenames and names of ancient Macedonians recorded are Greek.(not Greek sounding-they have a clear meaning in Greek and many were used by other Greek tribes too)
Some have unclear etymology (probably as an influence of the neighboring Paeonians,Illyrians and Thracians) and there is one ...that -what a coincidence- reminds you something close to a slavic root word.
(Of course there are no credible historians who believe these are slavic )
But..you come to the conclusion,you had already decided ,ignoring 95% of evidence ,and believing your weird theory.

As you ignore Procopius,Theophanes,Simocatta,Miracles,Leo VI,Porphurogennetus...
You deny the Sclaveniai ,you deny the wars of the Romei Emperors against Slavs.

Your -and most here-case is not a matter of evidence ,it's just a matter of FAITH.
I cannot go against Faith with evidence or arguments.It's just faith.

[TerraNova]

You are still to provide Quote where it say's that this Sklavenes and Antes were Migrating from somewhere ..........

Check twice the quotes above.

Also you didn't answer me -Who were the Slavs /Sclavenes of the Sclaveniai?
Were they Macedonians? (since you believe Macedonians were slavic speaking)


Can you provide me a single EVIDENCE, QUOTE , SOURCE that Macedonians were Slavic speaking ?

[Delodephius]

That almost all history schools on planet Earth share the shame view with me.

Argumentum ad numeram is a false argument. Secondly, you do not account for all of scholars on Earth and their opinions. Most if not all scholars would disagree with your opinion because you do not represent the true academia and its view. You speak of popular science, like the one you would find on National Geographic, Discovery or Viasat History.

[Delodephius]

Can you provide me a single EVIDENCE, QUOTE , SOURCE that Macedonians were Slavic speaking ?

That's diachronic. Macedonians couldn't be considered Slavic speaking then when the term Slavic in the sense you search was coined in the 18th century and even back then it included Lithuanian and Latvian as well, the same way Albanian was a Romance language.

[TerraNova]

That's diachronic. Macedonians couldn't be considered Slavic speaking then when the term Slavic in the sense you search was coined in the 18th century and even back then it included Lithuanian and Latvian as well, the same way Albanian was a Romance language.

Playing with words cannot delete the question.
Terminology is required for a discussion.

What if i would change the question:
Can you provide me a single QUOTE,EVIDENCE that confirms that ancient Macedonians were speaking a similar language (or an ancestral language) of the language the modern Polish,Russians or modern Macedonians speak?

[TerraNova]

Argumentum ad numeram is a false argument. Secondly, you do not account for all of scholars on Earth and their opinions. Most if not all scholars would disagree with your opinion because you do not represent the true academia and its view. You speak of popular science, like the one you would find on National Geographic, Discovery or Viasat History.

Do you really believe your approach has a minimum of scientific validity?

[Delodephius]

Can you provide me a single QUOTE, EVIDENCE that confirms that ancient Macedonians were speaking a similar language (or an ancestral language) of the language the modern Polish, Russians or modern Macedonians speak?

Nothing direct, only a complex academic study would be able to explain that, reason why is because we have no written evidence of the Macedonian language. We do have evidence that Macedonians didn't speak Greek as their native language but a language or languages belonging to the same group as Illyrian and Thracian. Without a written example of the ancient Macedonian we cannot know what language they spoke. But language is not a proof of ones ethnicity. My ancestors were Celts and Hungarians but I'm still a Slav. I'm hope I don't have to remind you that ethnicities did not exist in the ancient world in the same way we see them today and that what language ancient Macedonians spoke is to remain only in the domain of speculation.

Do you really believe your approach has a minimum of scientific validity?

No, it does not. But from your part that's an argument from comparison, discrediting me so that you would gain the upper ground when basically you are just an amateur as I am and I can say the same thing about you.