Possible Etymology of Alexander

[Philosopher]

The question I have is why is the word "Basileus", which by all indications is a borrowed word, called Greek? Why do lexicons state it is a Greek word when the word has no meaning in Greek?

Regardless of the origin, there is no justification to say it is of Greek origin.

[spitfire]

There is no other usage of Vasil as a word in macedonian, correct me if I'm wrong philosopher.
In greek this word has many uses as a noun, verb, adjective, etc. There are also many nouns and words that derive from that. It is also used in compound words. The correlation is clear up to this degree at least.

I did not get why exactly the word Napoleon can't be the same case as with Vasil.
After all you just took two words, I took three words. You understand of course that without further usage there is no correlation. This is the linguistic way and semantic way of doing things right. You need a "sema" wich is a sign, to go to the "semantiko" which means important or of importance. From there (the sign) you find the correlation of the signifier and the signified using semantics in order to find the "semasia" which means the meaning.

The name is not greek (Napoleon) I'm just showing you how you don't make the correct correlatons. Furthermore, I showed how there is usage of "Βασιλιάς" in greek, whereas this is not the case with modern macedonian (waiting for examples of course from you, without dropping anything).

[spitfire]

Now you know why the dolphins have semantic properties. They recognise signs (semata).

[spitfire]

The word "Basileus" in Greek has no etymological meaning. It is a borrowed word. In Macedonian, "vasil" appears to be a more logical choice for the origin of "Basil" because it forms the elementary concept of someone in power, like a prince or a king.

An argument can be made that, like with most words, the word "Basileus" overtime took on the exclusive meaning "king" because the word evolved to mean specifically a king, rather than "in power".

There are many words that have root meanings, which, over time, expand and evolve.

As I said earlier, I gave you the example of base and people and the base and coming. Evolving, as you say and I support, made the word to mean King.
You are saying exactly what I said about the word police. It comes from somewhere but it evolved into something else.
But again, since there is evolution, in greek you have many words from that meaning king or something that is royal etc. In macedonian you don't have that for this specific vehicle of meaning (that is what a word is).

And to give it a linguistic twist for the topic. What does Alexander mean exactly in modern macedonian?

[Philosopher]

I did not get why exactly the word Napoleon can't be the same case as with Vasil.

Well, first, no one knows what the origin of Napoleon is. It may derive from old German (sons of mist) or “man from Naples” or lion.

This was an old Italian name, used most notably by the French emperor Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821), who was born on Corsica. It is possibly derived from the Germanic Nibelungen, the name of a race of dwarfs in Germanic legend, which meant "sons of mist". Alternatively, it could be connected to the name of the Italian city of Napoli (Naples).

Second, regardless of the meaning of Napoleon, lion or not, you cannot make the argument that the word “Napoleon”, because it is possibly associated with a “lion” and a lion is powerful, that a lion is thus “in power” and thus its connection to “Basil” is similar to or the same as “Vasil”.

By this argument, you can twist any word to mean anything.

The argument presented here is that “Vasil” is the same word as “Basil” (same spelling no less) and that in Macedonian, unlike in Greek, the word means “in power”.

The word “Vasil” is a common name, but it is composed of two words “va” and “sil”, no different than how the name “George” is composed of “geo” and “ergos”.

The word “vasil” can be used as a verb, when not used as a noun (as a person's name), to describe a person in power.

So again, you cannot used the analogy of napoleon.

As I said earlier, I gave you the example of base and people and the base and coming. Evolving, as you say and I support, made the word to mean King.

I do not understand this. You are saying that “Bas” means “base”? What do you mean by “base”? Base as in bottom as inferior as in what?

I still do not see how “Basileus” can evolve into king. This is a large leap in logic.

You are saying exactly what I said about the word police. It comes from somewhere but it evolved into something else.
But again, since there is evolution, in greek you have many words from that meaning king or something that is royal etc.

This is only true if “Basileus” is of foreign origin. If the Greeks took a foreign word (say Vasil) and said “this vasil in Macedonian means in power, let us expand its meaning in our language to 'king'”, then yeah, I agree completely. The word evolved from its primitive meaning “in power” to a specific person in power, namely, king.

Do you agree or disagree that Basileus is not of Greek origin?

[spitfire]

Philosopher, you are neglecting all of the important stuff I mentioned. I'm afraid that you are trying very hard to prove that Vasil is somewhat a macedonian word, when it is two words and a name only.
On the other hand the word is used in greek in many cases.

I would love to see the connection. It would open a new window and it would make sense if the word was used in a similar manner in macedonian. But it's not.
Since there is no such connection, then everybody can make up theories. Like the extravagant Napoleon which I made up just to show you how easy it is to make such mistakes.

You need to clarify it. Is it a verb or not? You say that it can be used as a person's name in order to show that this person is in power? That's hardly a verb. It is a noun.

Do you want me to give you words in greek that come from "Βασιλιάς";
Here's a verb: Βασιλεύω. This means I reign
Here's another: Βασιλίζω. This means I'm on the King's side.
Here's one more: Βασιλεύομαι. This means acting like a king.

I can go on with nouns, and adjectives but that would be too much.

[Dejan]

Vasil = In Power. Quite straight forward for those who know the Macedonian language

[spitfire]

Vasil = In Power. Quite straight forward for those who know the Macedonian language

Yes, and how is it used other than that? Do you say for instance that a person vasils? Or this person is vasiling over matters?

[spitfire]

Do you agree or disagree that Basileus is not of Greek origin?

Define origin. If it comes from linear B' language in another form, I cannot tell.

[Nikolaj]

What correlations of other languages are these? Don't tell me about Sardanapalos again. I told you it's not a proper example because it is different in ending. Try Maeander for a change. This has transiletarion of even the greek "αι".

I'm here to state, that all this linguistic approach alone, is not sufficient of the descent of Alexander. I think I made it clear. We know that from ancient times. There are other things that need to coincide with language.

A good example is Alexander and Lysander, i'm talking about names like these that don't meet the same correlation. Yes those two do I never said they didn't. I never said I had any data, I haven't done any further research on the matter, it isn't a simple task but it something I will get into.

Quit the assumptions.

Now I see what you mean Philosopher. By that you are saying that it makes more meaning in macedonian than in greek.

However if you go into linguistics, you'll find that occam's razor is not always how it works.

Splitting up words of different languages varies, in Macedonian it is common for words to be able to be broken down into three, sometimes four to be derived further, not only two which is common in Greek.

The name can be further broken down without any redundant words in Macedonian; this should not be ignored. You only chose to ignore it when it doesn't work in your favor and blame it on linguistics (that it's not always the case)...
This is true, if it had no other languages to support its derivation, which there is, Macedonian. It could definitely, without a doubt be of Macedonian origin, any logical person wouldn't deny it as a possibility...

A common trend, much like anything that supports our claim from ancient historians is always hyperbolic, even though there is linkage and correlation to what is said everywhere throughout history.

[Philosopher]

Define origin. If it comes from linear B' language in another form, I cannot tell.

That the word "Basileus" has no etymological meaning in Greek. And thus it is a borrowed word.

[spitfire]

A good example is Alexander and Lysander, i'm talking about names like these that don't meet the same correlation. Yes those two do I never said they didn't. I never said I had any data, I haven't done any further research on the matter, it isn't a simple task but it something I will get into.

Quit the assumptions.

You started it nicely but you puzzled me in the end. Which assumptions are you reffering to?

Splitting up words of different languages varies, in Macedonian it is common for words to be able to be broken down into three, sometimes four to be derived further, not only two which is common in Greek.

The name can be further broken down without any redundant words in Macedonian; this should not be ignored. You only chose to ignore it when it doesn't work in your favor and blame it on linguistics (that it's not always the case)...
This is true, if it had no other languages to support its derivation, which there is, Macedonian. It could definitely, without a doubt be of Macedonian origin, any logical person wouldn't deny it as a possibility...

A common trend, much like anything that supports our claim from ancient historians is always hyperbolic, even though there is linkage and correlation to what is said everywhere throughout history.

As I said, I would love to see the possibility as it would open a new window. What is most probable is that even the word sil comes from elsewhere and not modern macedonian.

The only derivation I know is that it comes from a word in linear B' that means ceasar. Now I may take this as an explanation even though I don't quite see how it works with phoneme and letters.

[spitfire]

That the word "Basileus" has no etymological meaning in Greek. And thus it is a borrowed word.

Well if that makes you happy, so be it. I don't recall saying anywhere that greek is a language with no past before it.

[Philosopher]

Philosopher, you are neglecting all of the important stuff I mentioned. I'm afraid that you are trying very hard to prove that Vasil is somewhat a macedonian word, when it is two words and a name only.
On the other hand the word is used in greek in many cases.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I would love to see the connection. It would open a new window and it would make sense if the word was used in a similar manner in macedonian. But it's not.
Since there is no such connection, then everybody can make up theories. Like the extravagant Napoleon which I made up just to show you how easy it is to make such mistakes.

Napoleon may mean lion.

You need to clarify it. Is it a verb or not? You say that it can be used as a person's name in order to show that this person is in power? That's hardly a verb. It is a noun.

Let me clarify. The word "vasil" is a common Macedonian name, like Jovan, Risto, et al. The meaning of this name is "in power". When used as a name, it is a noun. The word can also be used as a verb.

This, I would imagine, is no different, than how "Vassileos" is used as a common name in Greece, and also "Vasileus" and its offshoots are used as verbs and what not.

Do you want me to give you words in greek that come from "Βασιλιάς";
Here's a verb: Βασιλεύω. This means I reign
Here's another: Βασιλίζω. This means I'm on the King's side.
Here's one more: Βασιλεύομαι. This means acting like a king.

I can go on with nouns, and adjectives but that would be too much.

I do not doubt what you write. This does not mean that the word is indigenous to Greek. The word has no etymological meaning in Greek, so it is likely borrowed and its original meaning expanded.

[Philosopher]

Well if that makes you happy, so be it. I don't recall saying anywhere that greek is a language with no past before it.

Spitfire, it does not make me happy. Nor should this thread turn into an argument. All languages have borrowed words. Macedonian is no different. This is not a competition.

Every lexicon states "Basileus" is of Greek origin. If the word is of Greek origin, I have no problem with that. My issue is that unlike pure Greek words, this word Basileus does not appear to have any etymological meaning in Greek. This to me is odd. It seems to suggest it is borrowed from another language, which means it is not of Greek origin.

All I have presented is another theory that "Vasil" means "in power" and seems to make more sense for an etymological meaning.

I may be wrong.