Origin of the Goths: Slavic or Germanic?

[Voltron]

So basically you guys invented beef jerky then you claim to be the ones that developed all that delicate "Turkish Cuisine" we Greeks eat.
Beef jerky and yoghurt the primary diet of nomads.

[Onur]

There is an Hapsburg`s ambassador to Istanbul named Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq from 1552 to 1562 AD. He stayed in Istanbul for 10 years but traveled all around Turkey and constantly sent reports to Vienna.

We were talking about the tulips in Holland in other thread. This ambassador was Flemish (Dutch) in origin and this guy was the first man who brought tulips to Europe from Istanbul gardens;

He was an avid collector, acquiring valuable manuscripts, rare coins and curios of various kinds. Among the best known of his discoveries was a 6th century copy of Dioscorides' De Materia Medica, a compendium of medicinal herbs. The emperor purchased it after Busbecq's recommendation; the manuscript is now known as the Vienna Dioscorides. His passion for herbalism led him to send Turkish tulip bulbs to his friend Charles de l'Écluse, who acclimatized them to life in the Low Countries. Less than a century later tulip mania was sweeping the United Provinces and ruining its financial markets. Busbecq has also been credited with introducing the lilac to Europe (though this is debated)[2] as well as the Angora goat.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogier_Ghiselin_de_Busbecq

He was also the guy who attested the last remaining Goths in Crimea and noted their language for the last time. He calls them as Tatars at first because they were the horsemen of Crimea but he thinks that they either should be the descendants of Goths or Saxons because they were speaking German language.

http://www.archive.org/stream/lifele.../n373/mode/2up

It`s funny that he relates their habit of eating horse meat without cooking is some kind of barbarian custom. Actually, what Gothic nomads did was, what we call as "pastirma". Pastirma, "pressed meat" in Turkish is the best and easiest meal for mobile horsemen. They were slicing the meat, putting under the saddle to let it dry faster with the horse`s heat generated from it`s skin. It was practical because dried meat doesn't get spoiled and doesn't need cold to be preserved.

It`s also interesting that he mentions about the chief of Tatars who raised among these Goths. So, we can say that these last remaining Goths of Crimea who didn't migrate to the Europe, mingled with Tatars or Slavs and disappeared from history.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I just read in a dictionary (and also found a similar entry on Wikipedia), that "mir, měr, mierz, myr" could also mean "prestige" in Common Slavic, besides "peace" and "world".

http://blog.oup.com/2009/04/peace/

Peace migrated to English from French. Pax, the etymon of peace, stood for “something fixed, united, joined together”; hence pact. Among its numerous, often barely recognizable cognates, whose meanings go all the way from “make firm; satisfy” to “seize, receive” and thereby “make firm,” the ancestor of Engl. fair “beautiful, pleasing” turns up (Germanic f corresponds to Latin p, as in the pater ~ father couple), and it is especially interesting. Peace, with its show of stability, was clearly understood as a good thing. In most Slavic languages the word for “peace” is mir, known to the outside world from the name of the space station “Mir,” though in Russian mir has two senses: “peace” and “world.” This word is akin to mil- “nice, pleasant.” The sense attested in the English adjective fair does not seem to have been present in the closest cognates of pax, but the Germanic-Slavic parallel is not fortuitous: peace is something “fixed” and “beautiful.” Another curious coincidence may be worthy of note. Russian mir “world” developed from “community of farmers,” so that “togetherness” yielded “peace.” Obviously related to pax is Latin pagus “(rural) district, the country,” originally “landmark fixed in the earth,” whence paganus “rustic,” later “pagan.” Once again living together, in a community, became inseparable from “peace.”

I have the book written by Anatoly Liberman, it seems like an interesting read, good information on etymologies and the formation of words.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I do think that any member has the right to ask questions and investigate the purpose of other members, to see their motives.

You're absolutely correct.

You are both welcome here, and while you don't see eye to eye on some things (same applies with everybody else), in this instance Onur has become defensive rather than positively responding to some of the questions posed. At the end of the day, if you're going to make an assertion you need to be able to corroborate it. When someone tells me that Germanic tribes lived in yurts - which is common for Turkic and Mongol peoples - then one would think that a request for elaboration is to be expected.

[Delodephius]

Hey, I'm just here coz there are interesting things being discussed, I have friends here and I was asked politely to be here. The original reason was that I felt sympathy for the Macedonians and what they had to suffer, plus I was a Pan-Slavist back when I started. That's five reasons I believe. Now I'm not pretending to be a "policeman", I think the moderators are here for that, but I do think that any member has the right to ask questions and investigate the purpose of other members, to see their motives.

[Onur]

No one has complained since I started doing it in 2005-ish. If you have knowledge, either use it or teach it.

Ok, thats fine, but you shouldn't complain either if someone refuses to play your game of prof. Slovak with his students.

I am quite unsure of what is your purpose here. No one has told me, and you haven't shown. You don't seem to have any interest in Macedonian history except glorifying everything Turkic and criticizing everything Greek and Western.

I didn't get who were the "WE" but now i gotta ask;
Who are you to question my purpose here? Did i ever ask you what a slovak does here? I understood that you like to play a teacher but you wanna be a forum police now?

[Delodephius]

I can guess that cuz you are so selective about what to read. It`s so obvious that you pick what you like and ignore the ones you don't prefer.

That is the main misconception you have about me.

no one indoctrinates anyone here but it seems you are trying to do that.

No one has complained since I started doing it in 2005-ish. If you have knowledge, either use it or teach it. Indoctrination is a bit of rough word however.

You are the one who speaks from that "dark hole" here.

I'll past that to the thousands of historians. If I can find them. It is awfully dark in here mind you.

Who is "We"???

When I say WE I know exactly who I mean. There are people here on this forum I consider friends and whom I had the pleasure of debating and discussing with for half a decade.
I am quite unsure of what is your purpose here. No one has told me, and you haven't shown. You don't seem to have any interest in Macedonian history except glorifying everything Turkic and criticizing everything Greek and Western.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No, the word "bey" is written on 7th century Turkic runic stones. Persians doesn't use the title "bey".

I don't see how that poses a problem, by then Turkic peoples had already been influenced by Iranian peoples. I could be wrong, but personally I think it is too similar. The Turkic/Mongol word 'altan' also looks very similar to Indo-European words for 'gold'.

I just said that all the Gothic kings you wrote above and also Theodoric the Great has migrated to Europe from around Crimea, Ukraine, the "very well known and attested" homeland of east Germanic tribes.

They settled in the regions around the Black Sea some time after they migrated from their original homeland, that is how they became east Germanic. It is only after this period that many of them, like Theodoric, began to move westward.

I can elaborate but i think that would be futile cuz both you and slovak seems like you are obsessed with your own theories and strictly closed to anything which contradicts your own ideas, even if it`s concrete buildings and other archeological findings.

That is an unnecessary rant borne out of misguided frustration. There's really no need for getting defensive, unless you feel that your own theories are becoming swiss cheese. You make a statement, and then you go all wierd when you are asked to elaborate. What's your problem?

......cuz he was probably living in yurts at earlier times as all other Germanic people before they have been romanized and christianized.

The presenter in the first video link you provided actually says that the Goths weren't nomadic and lived just like the Romans. Where exactly is it stated anywhere that Germanic people lived in yurts?

[Onur]

Yes, but that is later history. We're mostly interested in the BC period. You only speak of the time the first Turkic speaking tribes appeared, not the time before them, the time we are interested in mostly.

Who is "We"??? How you know from which period everyone prefers to read here? How come you are the one who decides what people interests with and what not??? Ohh, if you claimed this thread specifically for SOM and yourself, then tell me so i don't bother.

The theories you present are completely alien to us.

Nothing i`ve wrote here are theories cuz like you said, i am talking about later history, early medieval times and i am posting pictures of buildings, archeological findings here. You are the one who talk about theories of 10.000 BC, supposed homelands, myths and proto-somethings.

I don't know what your sources are. There is nothing I have read in dozens of books on Eastern European, Gothic, Slavic or any other history for that matter that resembles what you speak of.

I can guess that cuz you are so selective about what to read. It`s so obvious that you pick what you like and ignore the ones you don't prefer. Your behavior was so typical in another thread when i wrote about other theories of Mario Alinei which you have ignored and remained silent.

You constantly accuse us of some form of ignorance, yet rarely has it been true.

When did i do that? I just said that you are strictly closed to the other information if it`s contradicts your ideas.

You are being overly defensive here.

There is nothing I hate more than when people accuse me of not knowing something I actually do know. I can only wonder then what prompted them to make such a false conclusion of me. As if I didn't know how Theodoric the Goths mausoleum looked like? I made a model of the tomb from paper a few years ago for god's sake!

You already knew that? Wow! grats, bravo, clap but you know there are also other people following this forum and i usually don't think about whether people already knows or not when i am gonna post something. This is about discussion, no one indoctrinates anyone here but it seems you are trying to do that.

If you find offensive whenever you read things that you`ve already known, then it`s your inferiority complex and this is your own problem, not mine.

We here know most of European history from that period, what we don't know is the pseudohistory you keep posting, from whatever dark hole you continue to pull it out of.

You are being so annoying but i think you already know that. Again, i am posting the real world pictures in this thread but you are the one who keep talking about proto-that, proto-this, 10.000 BC homelands and mythology, yet i am being pseudo here???

You are the one who speaks from that "dark hole" here
.

[Delodephius]

I can elaborate but i think that would be futile cuz both you and slovak seems like you are obsessed with your own theories and strictly closed to anything which contradicts your own ideas, even if it`s concrete buildings and other archeological findings.

The theories you present are completely alien to us. I don't know what your sources are. There is nothing I have read in dozens of books on Eastern European, Gothic, Slavic or any other history for that matter that resembles what you speak of. And these are not some fringe books, I'm talking of books written by experts in the field, academics from the most prestigious universities in Europe, Russia and the Middle East. But then again, you would most likely call them liars and frauds and dig something up from whatever source you may find that tries to demonstrate they are wrong. I distrusted authorities when I was young and poorly aware, until I actually read the books and saw what these people actually were talking about. The things you accuse me and SoM of are actually what you are guilty of, at least that is plainly obvious to us. Let me not get into the fact that you openly despise all things Roman and Catholic. With such a bias I'm afraid we here cannot take a word you say seriously. You constantly accuse us of some form of ignorance, yet rarely has it been true. There is nothing I hate more than when people accuse me of not knowing something I actually do know. I can only wonder then what prompted them to make such a false conclusion of me. As if I didn't know how Theodoric the Goths mausoleum looked like? I made a model of the tomb from paper a few years ago for god's sake! We here know most of European history from that period, what we don't know is the pseudohistory you keep posting, from whatever dark hole you continue to pull it out of.

[Delodephius]

This is what Jordanes said and many finds this questionable as most of his other claims. I don't refute the supposed homeland of Scandinavia but this story comes from Jordanes and he is famous with his made up stories out of nowhere.

Have you ever read the Norse Sagas and Eddas? They pretty much say the same thing Jordanes wrote about. For instance the Gutasaga among others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutasaga

Besides that, i wasn't talking about the supposed homeland of Germanic peoples in 10.000 BC. I just said that all the Gothic kings you wrote above and also Theodoric the Great has migrated to Europe from around Crimea, Ukraine, the "very well known and attested" homeland of east Germanic tribes.

Yes, but that is later history. We're mostly interested in the BC period. You only speak of the time the first Turkic speaking tribes appeared, not the time before them, the time we are interested in mostly.

[Onur]

Most likely it is not so. Goths already under Filimer left Scandinavia for Gothiscandza in the 1st century AD. The origin of the Germanic peoples is from around the Northern Sea, Scandinavia, Netherlands and Rhineland, not from the east. I won't say that again.

This is what Jordanes said and many finds this questionable as most of his other claims. I don't refute the supposed homeland of Scandinavia but this story comes from Jordanes and he is famous with his made up stories out of nowhere.

Besides that, i wasn't talking about the supposed homeland of Germanic peoples in 10.000 BC. I just said that all the Gothic kings you wrote above and also Theodoric the Great has migrated to Europe from around Crimea, Ukraine, the "very well known and attested" homeland of east Germanic tribes.

Isn't that also a Persian loanword?

No, the word "bey" is written on 7th century Turkic runic stones. Persians doesn't use the title "bey".

Can you elaborate on that point, Onur? Why would a Germanic king want it to look like a yurt? What can you tell us about the nomadic roots Theodoric?

Isn't the picture of his own tomb above clear enough? I can elaborate but i think that would be futile cuz both you and slovak seems like you are obsessed with your own theories and strictly closed to anything which contradicts your own ideas, even if it`s concrete buildings and other archeological findings.

Why would Germanic king wants it to look like yurt? Is this difficult to answer? cuz he was probably living in yurts at earlier times as all other Germanic people before they have been romanized and christianized.

Watch this documentary from 1:26min;
‪History's Hell Angels (Part 4)‬‏ - YouTube


Theodoric`s tomb from 1:37min.;
‪History's Hell Angels (Part 5)‬‏ - YouTube

[Delodephius]

I just read in a dictionary (and also found a similar entry on Wikipedia), that "mir, měr, mierz, myr" could also mean "prestige" in Common Slavic, besides "peace" and "world".

[Soldier of Macedon]

To continue on my previous post. I have been searching for the meaning of these endings in many Germanic names: -mir, -mer, -mar, -mær. I finally found just a reference in one book of mine that it means "famous", "glorious", originally from Proto-Germanic meri.

I don't recall where I read it, but I am sure I have seen the name Slavic Vladimer (as opposed to Vladimir) explained as -mer meaning 'great'. As for 'mir', would it be related to Greek ειρήνη meaning 'peace'?

Now, when Slavs use the ending -mir in their names, this might just be a relic of the Germanic names, since in Slavic mir means "peace" or "world" and several names that contain it make no sense if we apply this etymology.

Worthy of further research. A parallel example that could be cited is the Slavic Bogomil as opposed to Greek Theophilus. Which Slavic names are you thinking about? If we use Branimir as an example, it would mean 'peaceful defender', or 'glorious defender' if we use the Germanic definition of the word -mir, but then the latter would make more sense in Slavic as Branislav.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It`s Turkic equivalent is "bey, beg".......

Isn't that also a Persian loanword?

He ordered the construction of his own future tomb when he was still alive and he wanted it to look like a yurt, as a reminder of his nomadic roots.

Can you elaborate on that point, Onur? Why would a Germanic king want it to look like a yurt? What can you tell us about the nomadic roots Theodoric?

If Germanic "mir" comes from the Persian language, most likely it is so, then they must have adopted that word during their Eurasian days b4 great migration, maybe from Alans.

There were no Alan or Germanic languages when PIE first began to fragment. If this is a cognate between Iranian and Germanic languages, then it most likely came from a common PIE source rather than being loaned from one to another.