Origin of the Goths: Slavic or Germanic?

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, "strokes and incisions, scratches and sketches" means they were using runic script. Probably the 9th century writer was ignorant about Runic alphabet..........Chinese people were ignorant about that too and wrote like "Huns writes on wooden tablets by scratching and incising"

Onur, the Runic script consists of letters, whereas Hrabar says that the Slavs didn't use their own letters, nor does he say that they used someone else's letters. If they were using the Turkic Bulgar runes, why would Hrabar fail to mention this supposed fact, and why would he be ignorant of them when Slavic-speaking populations had been interacting (even on a level as indicated in the Romanian cave) with the Bulgars for at least a couple of hundred years by that point?

[Delodephius]

SoM, I think they're missing the first part of the quote from Hrabar. The first paragraph goes:

Прѣжде оубо Словѣне не имѣхоу кънигъ· нъ чрътами и рѣзами чьтѣахоу и гатаахоу· погани сѫще· крьстивше же сѧ римскъіими и грьчьскъіими писменъі нѫждаахоу сѧ пьсати словѣньскоу рѣчь без оустроѥниіа.

Translation:

In the past the Slavs did not have letters (books), but with cuts and strokes they read and told fortune (guessed), being pagans still, baptising themselves with Roman and Greek letters they were forced to write the Slavic language without order.

If they did not have letters how could they have runes? Runes are a writing system not mere symbols. A smiley face :-) is just a symbol.

Living in the proximity of the Romans and Greeks I think Slavs had used their writing systems. However, there is no evidence of writing among the Germanic peoples, nor the Baltic, nor the Iranian Scythians (later the Sarmatians, later the Alans, today Ossetians). Only around the 4-5th century AD did first runes appear in Germania and Scandinavia and by that time Slavs were already formed and in full contact with the Roman Empire on the Danubian frontier.

[Onur]

If they did not have letters how could they have runes? Runes are a writing system not mere symbols. A smiley face :-) is just a symbol.

Runes evolved from symbols ("tamga" in Turkic) and then gradually refined into an alphabet around ~4th century BC to ~1st century AD. Thats why both Germanic and Turkic runes are defined with several different words like "god, horse, riding, man, tree, sun" but not only with the sound they produce cuz these were symbols b4 evolving to an alphabet system. You can see here;

Living in the proximity of the Romans and Greeks I think Slavs had used their writing systems. However, there is no evidence of writing among the Germanic peoples, nor the Baltic, nor the Iranian Scythians (later the Sarmatians, later the Alans, today Ossetians). Only around the 4-5th century AD did first runes appear in Germania and Scandinavia and by that time Slavs were already formed and in full contact with the Roman Empire on the Danubian frontier.

Thats wrong. You could at least check wikipedia before claiming this. Germanic runes as with complete alphabet system has been found in central, southeastern Europe, dated from 1st century AD . In central Asia, some proto-runic writings from 4th century BC has been found in kurgans. This is the most famous one;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issyk_inscription

This finding from 4th century BC is a proof of runic writing system has been evolved in late Scythian era.

Onur, the Runic script consists of letters, whereas Hrabar says that the Slavs didn't use their own letters, nor does he say that they used someone else's letters. If they were using the Turkic Bulgar runes, why would Hrabar fail to mention this supposed fact, and why would he be ignorant of them when Slavic-speaking populations had been interacting (even on a level as indicated in the Romanian cave) with the Bulgars for at least a couple of hundred years by that point?

SOM, No one can give definitive answers for your questions. Already, that's why we are discussing about that, otherwise we wouldn't.

[Delodephius]

Thats wrong. You could at least check wikipedia before claiming this.

I write most things from memory. I don't consider them important enough.

This is the most famous one;

The Issyk inscription is written in the Kharoṣṭhī script (which I have studied and can write in) not the Turkic runes. Whether the runes evolved from the Kharoṣṭhī script is another matter. The Germanic runes evolved from the Roman and North Italian alphabets.

ᛁ᛫ᛞᚩ᛫ᚾᚩᛏ᛫ᚹᚪᚾᛏ᛫ᛏᚩ᛫ᚹᚪᛋᛏᛖ᛫ᛗᚣ᛫ᛏᛁᛗᛖ᛫ᛞᛁᛋᚳᚢᛋᛋᛁᚾᚷ᛫ᚦᛁᛝᛋ᛫ᛁ᛫ᚪ ᛚᚱᛖᚪᛞᚣ᛫ᚳᚾᚩᚹ᛬

What does Scythian mean to you?

[Delodephius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valamir

Valamir (c. 420 – c. 465) was an Ostrogothic king in the ancient country of Pannonia from 447 AD until his death. During his reign, he fought alongside the Huns against the Roman Empire and then, after Attila the Hun's death, fought against the Huns to regain Ostrogothic independence.

Valamir was the son of Vandalarius and cousin to king Thorismund. A vassal under the overlordship of the Huns, Valamir helped Attila raid the provinces of the Danube (447), and commanded the Ostrogothic contingent of Attila's force at the Battle of Chalons. With Attila's death (453), Valamir became the leader of the Goths settled in Pannonia. In the ensuing fight for independence from the Huns from 456 to 457 AD, he defeated and routed the sons of Attila.

A dispute concerning annual tribute caused Valamir to lead the Goths against the Romans at Constantinople from 459 to 462, when the emperor Leo I agreed to pay the Goths a gold subsidy annually. During a Scirian raid, Valamir was thrown from his horse and killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodemir

Theodemir was king of the Ostrogoths of the Amal Dynasty, and father of Theodoric the Great. He had two "brothers" actually brothers-in-law named Walamir (or Valamir) and Widimir. Theodemir was Arian, while his wife Erelieva was Catholic. He took over the three Pannonian Goth empires after the death of Widimir, ruled jointly with his brothers-in-law Walamir and Widimir, and was a vassal of Attila the Hun. The reason is probably that this relatively long reign of the Ostrogoths in Pannonia, while his elder brother Thiudimir only for four years on the throne, followed by Theodoric, and firstly inherited, the heirless, Walamir's part of the kingdom. He was married to Erelieva, with whom he had two children: Theodoric (454–526) and Amalafrida. When Theodemir died in 475, Theodoric succeeded him as king.

[Onur]

The greatest of all Gothic kings was Theodoric the Great, the son of Theodemir. He ruled in Italy, at the heart of Roman empire but after his death, eastern Romans invaded his court in Italy and desecrated his memory, destroyed his Arian churches and whatever left from him because he was still a barbarian to them and he was also a member of Arian sect, which was considered as heretic by eastern Romans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great

He ordered the construction of his own future tomb when he was still alive and he wanted it to look like a yurt, as a reminder of his nomadic roots. His grave has been looted by eastern Romans and his remains has been removed from it;

His mausoleum in Ravenna, Italy;

[Delodephius]

To continue on my previous post. I have been searching for the meaning of these endings in many Germanic names: -mir, -mer, -mar, -mćr. I finally found just a reference in one book of mine that it means "famous", "glorious", originally from Proto-Germanic meri. Now, when Slavs use the ending -mir in their names, this might just be a relic of the Germanic names, since in Slavic mir means "peace" or "world" and several names that contain it make no sense if we apply this etymology. However, if -mir is Germanic for "fame" or "glory", then this could also explain the Slavic ending -slav, because -slav, from slava = "fame", "glory", would just be a translation of -mir. In other words, early Slavs used to apply the same model for their names based on the Germanic one, and some Slavic names could actually be literal translations of Germanic names, for example Gottmer in Germanic would be Boguslav in Slavic. I would need to look into the meaning of other Germanic names and to compare them to existing Slavic ones. There are also many Germanic and Slavic names that were translated from one language to another in later epochs (10th century onwards) by the Lusatian and Pomerian Slavs who lived in Germany.

[Onur]

You better look for Persian for the possible meaning of "mir". I know that one cuz Turkic people was using the word "mir" since 12-13th century.

"Mir" means "seigneur, commander, chief, lord" in Persian and in Turkic languages. It can be used as a suffix to the names too. You can find many Iranian rulers with the word "mir" in their names. It`s probably entered Turkic from Alans or after islamization in 12th century. It`s Turkic equivalent is "bey, beg" but some important Turkic characters in history used the title "mir" like Tamerlane, (e)mir Timur. We don't use that in modern Turkish anymore but we still use the words which derived from it, like "emir, amir" which has similar meanings with "mir".

If Germanic "mir" comes from the Persian language, most likely it is so, then they must have adopted that word during their Eurasian days b4 great migration, maybe from Alans.

[Delodephius]

Most likely it is not so. Goths already under Filimer left Scandinavia for Gothiscandza in the 1st century AD. The origin of the Germanic peoples is from around the Northern Sea, Scandinavia, Netherlands and Rhineland, not from the east. I won't say that again.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It`s Turkic equivalent is "bey, beg".......

Isn't that also a Persian loanword?

He ordered the construction of his own future tomb when he was still alive and he wanted it to look like a yurt, as a reminder of his nomadic roots.

Can you elaborate on that point, Onur? Why would a Germanic king want it to look like a yurt? What can you tell us about the nomadic roots Theodoric?

If Germanic "mir" comes from the Persian language, most likely it is so, then they must have adopted that word during their Eurasian days b4 great migration, maybe from Alans.

There were no Alan or Germanic languages when PIE first began to fragment. If this is a cognate between Iranian and Germanic languages, then it most likely came from a common PIE source rather than being loaned from one to another.

[Soldier of Macedon]

To continue on my previous post. I have been searching for the meaning of these endings in many Germanic names: -mir, -mer, -mar, -mćr. I finally found just a reference in one book of mine that it means "famous", "glorious", originally from Proto-Germanic meri.

I don't recall where I read it, but I am sure I have seen the name Slavic Vladimer (as opposed to Vladimir) explained as -mer meaning 'great'. As for 'mir', would it be related to Greek ειρήνη meaning 'peace'?

Now, when Slavs use the ending -mir in their names, this might just be a relic of the Germanic names, since in Slavic mir means "peace" or "world" and several names that contain it make no sense if we apply this etymology.

Worthy of further research. A parallel example that could be cited is the Slavic Bogomil as opposed to Greek Theophilus. Which Slavic names are you thinking about? If we use Branimir as an example, it would mean 'peaceful defender', or 'glorious defender' if we use the Germanic definition of the word -mir, but then the latter would make more sense in Slavic as Branislav.

[Delodephius]

I just read in a dictionary (and also found a similar entry on Wikipedia), that "mir, měr, mierz, myr" could also mean "prestige" in Common Slavic, besides "peace" and "world".

[Onur]

Most likely it is not so. Goths already under Filimer left Scandinavia for Gothiscandza in the 1st century AD. The origin of the Germanic peoples is from around the Northern Sea, Scandinavia, Netherlands and Rhineland, not from the east. I won't say that again.

This is what Jordanes said and many finds this questionable as most of his other claims. I don't refute the supposed homeland of Scandinavia but this story comes from Jordanes and he is famous with his made up stories out of nowhere.

Besides that, i wasn't talking about the supposed homeland of Germanic peoples in 10.000 BC. I just said that all the Gothic kings you wrote above and also Theodoric the Great has migrated to Europe from around Crimea, Ukraine, the "very well known and attested" homeland of east Germanic tribes.

Isn't that also a Persian loanword?

No, the word "bey" is written on 7th century Turkic runic stones. Persians doesn't use the title "bey".

Can you elaborate on that point, Onur? Why would a Germanic king want it to look like a yurt? What can you tell us about the nomadic roots Theodoric?

Isn't the picture of his own tomb above clear enough? I can elaborate but i think that would be futile cuz both you and slovak seems like you are obsessed with your own theories and strictly closed to anything which contradicts your own ideas, even if it`s concrete buildings and other archeological findings.

Why would Germanic king wants it to look like yurt? Is this difficult to answer? cuz he was probably living in yurts at earlier times as all other Germanic people before they have been romanized and christianized.

Watch this documentary from 1:26min;
‪History's Hell Angels (Part 4)‬‏ - YouTube


Theodoric`s tomb from 1:37min.;
‪History's Hell Angels (Part 5)‬‏ - YouTube

[Delodephius]

This is what Jordanes said and many finds this questionable as most of his other claims. I don't refute the supposed homeland of Scandinavia but this story comes from Jordanes and he is famous with his made up stories out of nowhere.

Have you ever read the Norse Sagas and Eddas? They pretty much say the same thing Jordanes wrote about. For instance the Gutasaga among others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutasaga

Besides that, i wasn't talking about the supposed homeland of Germanic peoples in 10.000 BC. I just said that all the Gothic kings you wrote above and also Theodoric the Great has migrated to Europe from around Crimea, Ukraine, the "very well known and attested" homeland of east Germanic tribes.

Yes, but that is later history. We're mostly interested in the BC period. You only speak of the time the first Turkic speaking tribes appeared, not the time before them, the time we are interested in mostly.

[Delodephius]

I can elaborate but i think that would be futile cuz both you and slovak seems like you are obsessed with your own theories and strictly closed to anything which contradicts your own ideas, even if it`s concrete buildings and other archeological findings.

The theories you present are completely alien to us. I don't know what your sources are. There is nothing I have read in dozens of books on Eastern European, Gothic, Slavic or any other history for that matter that resembles what you speak of. And these are not some fringe books, I'm talking of books written by experts in the field, academics from the most prestigious universities in Europe, Russia and the Middle East. But then again, you would most likely call them liars and frauds and dig something up from whatever source you may find that tries to demonstrate they are wrong. I distrusted authorities when I was young and poorly aware, until I actually read the books and saw what these people actually were talking about. The things you accuse me and SoM of are actually what you are guilty of, at least that is plainly obvious to us. Let me not get into the fact that you openly despise all things Roman and Catholic. With such a bias I'm afraid we here cannot take a word you say seriously. You constantly accuse us of some form of ignorance, yet rarely has it been true. There is nothing I hate more than when people accuse me of not knowing something I actually do know. I can only wonder then what prompted them to make such a false conclusion of me. As if I didn't know how Theodoric the Goths mausoleum looked like? I made a model of the tomb from paper a few years ago for god's sake! We here know most of European history from that period, what we don't know is the pseudohistory you keep posting, from whatever dark hole you continue to pull it out of.