Ghost on the throne by James Romm

[Mistracona]

@ momce:

Again (and again, and again, and again...), the Greeks are not the issue. No one is arguing for the Greeks. The Greeks have no connection to anything. We agree that the Greeks are irrational, lunatic liars. Finished and Amen.

Now, the question is, who are the Macedonians of the Republic? On what historical basis do they claim a connection with the ancient kingdom of Macedonia? The Government in Skopje has spent part of tens of millions of euros creating a connection between the ROM and the ancient Macedonian kingdom. On what historical evidence? With what proof? The government in Skopje and many people from ROM claim an inheritance and a continuity from the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. The government has named stadiums, airports, highways and other infrastructure after ancient Macedonian historical figures to affirm that connection. On what grounds do they do this? What is the evidence? Is it all a "Rosetta Stone" hustle? A national delusion? I simply don't know.

Many posters on this site maintain a connection between the ROM and the ancient kingdom. Please state any historical evidence for this conclusion. Is it a secret?


I have posted evidence from several sources (including Eugene Borza and academic sources from Skopje as well as ROM government personnel) that state clearly that there is not and that there cannot be a connection between the people and nation of ROM and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.

Every time I ask for any linguistic, geographic or historical proof of the link between the ROM and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, I only get back attacks against the Greeks.

Is hatred for Greece and the Greeks your only national identity?

FUCK THE GREEKS!

The question is, who are you?

[makgerman]

@ momce:

The question is, who are you?

Listen Fake Hellene - Don't be a typical modern greek smartarse with cheap comments!
We know we are Macedonian. Don't question it.

Every time I ask for any linguistic, geographic or historical proof of the link between the ROM and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, I only get back attacks against the Greeks.

Why is it an attack questioning where today's modern greeks really originate from - Arvanti, Pontian, Vlach, Turkish, Slav, Roman,....? Or is too hard for them to accept the truth?
From which group do your ancestors originate from or is the mixture just too complex to bear?

FUCK THE GREEKS!

I surely wouldn't, but no one is stopping you. You'll have no problem finding someone on your Greek forums. Their views are pretty much the same as yours whenever Macedonia comes up. You can talk about us while you're doing it.

Is hatred for Greece and the Greeks your only national identity?

Is hatred for Macedonia and the Macedonians your only national identity and will you ever stop hating us?

One of the forum rules is to refer to our country as "Republic of Macedonia" or "Macedonia" and to the ethnic Macedonians living there as "Macedonian." You are being ignorant by using "ROM" and by referring to the Macedonians people of "ROM".

[Risto the Great]

@ momce and risto:

Piffle, piffle and more piffle.

I ask you to prove even the slightest, remotest connection between the modern Macedonian people and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, and I get the usual mouth-foaming attack on the Greeks in reply.

Is your obsessive, salivating and self-destroying hatred of the Greeks the only national identity you have?

Looks like that's it. Pity.

I don't believe I was foaming at the mouth at all Mistracona. Why don't you reply to my previous response properly and let's see if we can help you out.

[Mistracona]

makgerman writes: "We know we are Macedonian. Don't question it."

I, too, know you are Macedonian and that it is your deeply felt identity. I do not question it, nor have I questioned it.

My question has nothing to do with your own identity. It is an historical question. What is the connection between the people and nation of the Republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia? The government in Skopje has spent a lot of money and effort claiming a connection between the Republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom of that name. But it never offers any historical or linguistic or geographic evidence for that claim.

Without proof, the government in Tirana can make the same claims. Without proof, the government in Tirana can say that most of the Republic of Macedonia was originally Albanian land and it intends to retake it for the Albanians. Naked statements not backed up by any evidence are very easy to make. Anyone can say anything.

Many posters on this site claim a connection between the Republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom of that name, but they never offer any historical evidence for that claim.

Most of the energy in historical evidence on this site is directed against the Greeks. Fine, the Greeks area dark Balkan people, possibly the most Balkan of all the Balkan people, who are neither the world's most charming, nor impressive, nor convincing. But I don't understand how that is of any value or benefit to the Macedonian people of the Republic of Macedonia, or that it says anything at all about the Macedonian people in the Republic of Macedonia (except that they are not lying, thieving Greeks).

Historical references and conclusions have been originated by many other posters, not by me. I am merely asking the next logical question.

Thanks,

[Mistracona]

@ risto:

I presume that you are referring to your last post of 11-30-2012 at 07:31 PM which says: " Macedonians on the other hand are indigenous people of the region and they have not changed their native language. They have far more connections to the ancient Macedonians than the imported former Turkish nationals that came in the 1920's. Do you disagree?"

1) My question is regarding the connection between the Macedonian people of the republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.

2.) I do not know if "the Macedonian people have more connection to the ancient Macedonians than the imported Turkish nationals" because no one has presented any historical evidence as to what the connection between the Macedonian people and the ancient Macedonians is. The Macedonian people may be directly connected to the ancient kingdom. I don't know of any such evidence and I have presented references to the contrary. Can someone please quote historical references saying what that connection is?

The Turks were settled into Aegean Macedonia which is a part of Greece. They were not settled into the Republic of Macedonia. Agains, I ask for historical evidence of Macedonian claims of connection to the ancient kingdom and I get references to the Greeks. Can we forget about the f*cking Greeks for a brief moment and concentrate on the Macedonian people of the Republic of Macedonia?




__________________

[Mistracona]

@ risto et al:

Georgi Stradalov holds a PhD and was a professor at the Faculty of Philosophy in Skopje. He is an essayist, literary critic and anthologist. He is head of the lexicography Centre in Skopje from the year 2000. In January 2008, he was elected President of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts. His accomplishments and national and international awards are too numerous to list here.

Professor Stradalov is interviewed on video tape where he says the following:


"The key substratum of our identity is the Slavic one......a column for national identity is, actually, language, and our language is a Slavic language, or it enters into the group, in the family, of Slavic languages."

A gifted and extraordinary professor, academician and scholar and teacher, truly a "noble Macedonian," Professor Stradalov cuts to the heart of the matter when he says,"A column for national identity is language."

In the interview, Professor Stradalov objects to the Macedonian government's decision to "redefine" (Stradalov's word) Macedonian national identity by attaching it to ancient history.

[Risto the Great]

Thanks Mistracona. When I compare words with my Polish employee, I am often reminded that the Macedonian language is part of the slavic linguistic family. I am yet to see any text in ancient Macedonian so I will leave language out of it for the moment. But I would be concerned about my Venezuelan friends finding out they are nothing more than Spaniards based on one man's PhD conclusions.

Forgive me when I remind you that we both agree that katharevousa was artificial and did have the impact of introducing many words into the modern Greek language. As a consequence, you might be reminded that the Greek claim on antiquity (particularly if you want to use language as your identity substratum) is artificial.

Imagine if that debate in the early sessions of Greek parliament went the other way and the Greeks used Albanian as their official language. It was a close call. Wow, praise Zeus it went the way it did. At least the offspring of those Albanians are speaking Greek nowadays!

Can we forget about the f*cking Greeks for a brief moment and concentrate on the Macedonian people of the Republic of Macedonia?

Profanity. Really?
Well, I am a Macedonian from what is now Greece. I see no distinction between myself and the people across the modern border in the Republic of Macedonia. Why should we forget about the "f*cking Greeks"? They are the only ones pointing the finger with suggestions of genetic purity and language (oh, sometimes blondeness) etc.

My (Macedonian) people were not transplanted into Macedonia. There is no folklore about migration into the region among my people. They are the reflection of the ebbs and flows in the region until the very unnatural Greek occupation of 100 years ago. You want Macedonians to prove their connection to antiquity yet have no desire to be questioned on the Greek connection to antiquity.

We have discussed traditions that have continued from time immemorial in Macedonia as well as made connections with the few ancient Macedonian words that have been documented. They are of no interest to you because your cup appears to be quite full.

But this is all good fun. Notwithstanding this I am yet to have a real response about how the indigenous people of Macedonia (people like me) have less of a connection with the ancient Macedonians than the exchanged population of former Turkish nationals in the 1920's. They seem to be a vociferous bunch on the Macedonian issue nowadays and you aren't so sure about who has a better claim on calling themselves Macedonian. You're starting to sound like one of those Greek peasants I used to have exchanges with on other forums over 10 years ago.

[Carlin]

@ risto et al:

Georgi Stradalov holds a PhD and was a professor at the Faculty of Philosophy in Skopje. He is an essayist, literary critic and anthologist. He is head of the lexicography Centre in Skopje from the year 2000. In January 2008, he was elected President of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts. His accomplishments and national and international awards are too numerous to list here.

Professor Stradalov is interviewed on video tape where he says the following:


"The key substratum of our identity is the Slavic one......a column for national identity is, actually, language, and our language is a Slavic language, or it enters into the group, in the family, of Slavic languages."

A gifted and extraordinary professor, academician and scholar and teacher, truly a "noble Macedonian," Professor Stradalov cuts to the heart of the matter when he says,"A column for national identity is language."

In the interview, Professor Stradalov objects to the Macedonian government's decision to "redefine" (Stradalov's word) Macedonian national identity by attaching it to ancient history.

1) Modern Macedonians are a mixed people, primarily Slavs but there are also other elements (e.g. Vlachs).

2) Modern Greeks are largely Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians, Turks, Venetians, although there are many traces of other peoples such as North Africans, Georgians, Laz, etc. No connection at all to ancient Hellenes.

3) Modern Albanians are Mardaites [originally from Asia Minor; settled in the Balkans by the Romans ("Byzantines")]. No connection whatsoever to ancient Illyrians.

4) Modern Bulgarians are Slavs, Cumans, Pechenegs, Armenians, etc. Very little connection, if any, with the original Bulgars.

[Risto the Great]

1) Modern Macedonians are a mixed people, primarily Slavs but there are also other elements (e.g. Vlachs).

That is a ridiculous comment because we do not know what Slavs are Carlin. Why don't you define what you mean by that?

Further to that, we actually know who most of the Vlachs are in Macedonia.

[Chiche]

Mistracona, you ask "My question has nothing to do with your own identity. It is an historical question. What is the connection between the people and nation of the Republic of Macedonia and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia?"

First of all the Kingdom was called Macedon.
You ask for proof, what is it you wish us to provide? History books? History is usually written by the victors! The Macedonians have not been victors for a long time. If you learnt more about Roman history, you would know that the Romans were ordered to destroy everything Macedonian, after they defeated last Macedonian resistance, so that our People could never Rise again. So THE ONLY CONNECTION, that we can prove, is our Love for the Name and Lands of Macedon. Did you know the word, Macedon is mentioned in the Bible, yet the words Greek or Hellas are not used!!! Some modern day bibles use those terms which are contra to the original scriptures.

The proof of our connection is held by those who, continue to Deny us Justice!!

[momce]

Exactly. The material has always been the same, the Macedonian people, the forms have merely altered.

[Mistracona]

@ risto:

Again, the response to the "what possible connection do the Macedonian people have with the ancient kingdom, when all the historical evidence we have shows clearly that there is absolutely not the most remote connection?" is an attack on the Greeks.

One wonders, of course, what this visceral and pathological obsession with the Greeks means, where it comes from, what its point is.

The Slavic-speaking people of the Balkans received their alphabet and their religion from the Greek-speaking Roman Empire in the east (the so-called "Byzantine").

By Coming into contacts with the Roman Empire, these tribal people came into contact with the developed civilisation of the European continent, the original meaning of the words "Romanitas" in Latin and "Romiosini" in Greek.

A great people, like the Russians, openly acknowledge this inheritance and have assimilated it into their own dynamic and expansive culture.

Among some who are less accomplished, who have no other history to fall back on, who are ashamed of their own lineage, who have mortifying insecurities created by their own megalomaniac fantasies, the truth becomes a searing humiliation. Their only response is to turn and attack their cultural benefactors, to be obsessed by them, to have them loom as giants before them, to fill their angry souls with them, to create monsters from a child's imagination.

This is the moral swamp and intellectual miasma that is the vey definition of "Balkan."

There are enlightened, mature and morally powerful individuals like Georgi Stradalov, like Kiro Gligorov - who fought for his country as a young man and who dedicated his life to serving it - and many others who have a view from the summit of humanity, who welcome and embrace the truth and use it as a stepping-stone. They are the centurions of "Romanitas," the archons of "Romiosini."

And some are the typical first-generation immigrants with one foot in one country and one in the other and a sense of belonging in neither. The lost dogs of human migration.

All the best,

[Mistracona]

@ chiche:

Thank you for posting your strongly-held opinions. I respect them.


In any discussion and friendly debate, it is important to back up one's opinions with textual references or verifiable examples that give support to them. The source of these references is also taken into consideration.

The human mind will never know the absolute truth, if there is such a thing. But if all we do is express personal opinions without any explanation from where they came or how they are justified, then we are nothing more than inmates in a human asylum screaming insults at each other, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" as a great Macedonian poet from Skopje once said.

All the best,

[momce]

@ risto:

Again, the response to the "what possible connection do the Macedonian people have with the ancient kingdom, when all the historical evidence we have shows clearly that there is absolutely not the most remote connection?" is an attack on the Greeks.

One wonders, of course, what this visceral and pathological obsession with the Greeks means, where it comes from, what its point is.

The Slavic-speaking people of the Balkans received their alphabet and their religion from the Greek-speaking Roman Empire in the east (the so-called "Byzantine").

By Coming into contacts with the Roman Empire, these tribal people came into contact with the developed civilisation of the European continent, the original meaning of the words "Romanitas" in Latin and "Romiosini" in Greek.

A great people, like the Russians, openly acknowledge this inheritance and have assimilated it into their own dynamic and expansive culture.

Among some who are less accomplished, who have no other history to fall back on, who are ashamed of their own lineage, who have mortifying insecurities created by their own megalomaniac fantasies, the truth becomes a searing humiliation. Their only response is to turn and attack their cultural benefactors, to be obsessed by them, to have them loom as giants before them, to fill their angry souls with them, to create monsters from a child's imagination.

This is the moral swamp and intellectual miasma that is the vey definition of "Balkan."

There are enlightened, mature and morally powerful individuals like Georgi Stradalov, like Kiro Gligorov - who fought for his country as a young man and who dedicated his life to serving it - and many others who have a view from the summit of humanity, who welcome and embrace the truth and use it as a stepping-stone. They are the centurions of "Romanitas," the archons of "Romiosini."

And some are the typical first-generation immigrants with one foot in one country and one in the other and a sense of belonging in neither. The lost dogs of human migration.

All the best,

mistracona what is the point you are trying to make...you are giving us classical analytical categories to explain things..."slav", "cyrillic"(thats not the first alphabet used by what you call "slavs")etc...I would add we dont know if the ancient Macedonians even had an alphabet(it appears they had an oral language). I think you get most of your knowledge from "greek" sourcesi.e highly propaganda laden, esp by the Byzantine style church and the political and commercial classes writing of history...but nevertheless I know there is no serious debate on anything in greece or among greeks as theyre all brainwashed

[Mistracona]

momce writes: "I think you get most of your knowledge from "greek" sourcesi.e highly propaganda laden..."

If you check quickly back at my sources, momce, you will see that they are from Eugene Borza, an historian who is highly regarded and often quoted on this site, other international historians like Mary Beard who is professor of Classics at Cambridge University, England, from Loring Danforth, a very pro-Republic of Macedonia supporter, From diplomats and government officials of the Republic of Macedonia, from the Macedonia Academy of Arts and Sciences and from the leading, highly-respected and well-accomplished Macedonian academician Georgi Stradalov.

I have used no "greek" sources at all and certainly none from the unreformed and reactionary Greek Orthodox Church.

Would you please quote some of your sources.

Thanks,