Ghost on the throne by James Romm

[ramo]

Cher Nexus:

Not that it is in the last important or that anyone cares, but I certainly do not doubt the national identity or feelings of the people of the republic of Macedonia. They enjoy a celebration of their identity and national independence that is important to them. It is possible for someone of good will to share to some extent the joy of others and wish them well.

As I have tried to explain in my posts, the creation of the state of the republic of macedonia has followed and is following the typical state formation of all nations, including Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Ethiopia and Japan.

From a strictly historical point of view, since that is so often brought up by posters on this site, I am asking for any credible evidence that the modern Republic and its people have any connection to the ancient kingdom. The government of the republic has spent tens of millions of euros creating massive statues to figures from the ancient kingdom of Macedonia and names airports highways and stadiums after these figures. Clearly, it insists on a collective identity with the ancient kingdom.

My question is: where is any evidence that this is remotely true? And how can we square it with the abundant and overwhelming evidence that there is absolutely no connection between the modern state, geography, language, people or culture and the ancient kingdom? Is it a self-deception?

Never mind the Greeks. The posters here have determined who the Greeks are. The Greeks are Albano-Slavo-Turko-Gypsy thieves and liars, the hysterical lunatics of Europe. OK, that's settled, so we can put that aside for now.

Now who are the people of the republic of Macedonia? And how exactly are they connected to the ancient kingdom of that name?

Amitie comme toujours,

Greetings Mistracona.

What is your criteria for any nation connection with ancient population that lived before them. If it the territory we meet that. If is the foreign historical sources there are many that connect the Macedonians to Alexander (there are also sources that claim different because it suited them to write that at certain times). If it's the Macedonian sources, we have plenty Macedonians in the past that identified to ancient Macedonia. We also have many people named Alexander and Philip some centuries ago. The folk tales of Macedonian people mention Alexander as their king. This is the biggest argument according for me.

The language doesn't determine the peoples historical heritage as we are all clear. Simple examples are Irish and Mexicans.

So i'm asking you what more do you need to connect these things you are talking about?

[Risto the Great]

Never mind the Greeks. The posters here have determined who the Greeks are. The Greeks are Albano-Slavo-Turko-Gypsy thieves and liars, the hysterical lunatics of Europe. OK, that's settled, so we can put that aside for now.

Now who are the people of the republic of Macedonia? And how exactly are they connected to the ancient kingdom of that name?

You forgot Vlach and Italian Mistracona. You're slipping. You also forgot to mention all of those peoples above are now calling themselves Greek in an ethnic sense. Which is optimistic given the languages that many of their grandparents spoke.

Macedonians on the other hand are indigenous people of the region and they have not changed their native language.

They have far more connections to the ancient Macedonians than the imported former Turkish nationals that came in the 1920's. Do you disagree?

[Nexus]

From a strictly historical point of view, since that is so often brought up by posters on this site, I am asking for any credible evidence that the modern Republic and its people have any connection to the ancient kingdom. The government of the republic has spent tens of millions of euros creating massive statues to figures from the ancient kingdom of Macedonia and names airports highways and stadiums after these figures. Clearly, it insists on a collective identity with the ancient kingdom.

My question is: where is any evidence that this is remotely true? And how can we square it with the abundant and overwhelming evidence that there is absolutely no connection between the modern state, geography, language, people or culture and the ancient kingdom? Is it a self-deception?

Please Mimi, do not involve the macedonian government and theses statues, they remind me the waste (and possibly the laundering) of money done by this government. And do no expect answers from us about the acts of our political leaders ...

Well my answer about your first question is that there are, indeed, evidences about a connection between the modern state and the ancient kingdom/world.

Geographically, there is no doubt that there is a connection. The boundaries of the actual modern state of Macedonia fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. The actual region of Macedonia (Vardar, Pirin, Aegean), wich was inhabited by a majority of slavic-speaking macedonians fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian homeland and ancient kingdom. But let's focus on the modern borders of the small macedonian state. I add also that the actual borders fells too within the borders of the Roman province of Macedonia. There can be no question why the modern state of Macedonia has the right or not to call itself Macedonia, the answer is obvious.

There are numerous ancient monuments and places on the macedonian territory connected with the ancient Macedonian kingdom, like Stobi, Bylazora, Ohrid-Lihnida , Heraclea etc ... The Archeological sites, finds are numerous in Macedonia and proves again this connection. I read that there were even members of the MTF who found ancient macedonians coins ... There are many peoples who wants to stole our treasures : http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.1191200, and i don't talk about all the ancient artefacts which move in the black market ...

Geographically for me, there is no question to ask . But if you are not convinced, tell us your criteria.

About the language, i agree with the member Ramo, "the language doesn't determine the peoples historical heritage". By the way i will add that the Macedonian has numerous similarities with Paleo-Balkanic languages, like the thracian, we cannot ignore that.

And about the people or culture, my knowledge about my own culture, unfortunately, is weak. But i read that macedonians have many customs, traditions (poems, dances, costumes etc ...) related to the ancient world. The others members will certainly answer your questions about this domain better than me.

Mes amitiées sincères.

[momce]

from The Encyclopedia Britanica:

"The population of the Republic of Macedonia is diverse. At the beginning of the 21st century, nearly two-thirds of the population identified themselves as Macedonians. Macedonians generally trace their descent to the Slavic tribes that moved into the region between the 6th and 8th centuries ce."

Mistrocona what is the point you are trying to make. "Greeks" didnt call themselves Hellenes for 2000 years either. And they never called themselves Macedonians either.

[momce]

Cher Nexus:

Not that it is in the last important or that anyone cares, but I certainly do not doubt the national identity or feelings of the people of the republic of Macedonia. They enjoy a celebration of their identity and national independence that is important to them. It is possible for someone of good will to share to some extent the joy of others and wish them well.

As I have tried to explain in my posts, the creation of the state of the republic of macedonia has followed and is following the typical state formation of all nations, including Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Ethiopia and Japan.

From a strictly historical point of view, since that is so often brought up by posters on this site, I am asking for any credible evidence that the modern Republic and its people have any connection to the ancient kingdom. The government of the republic has spent tens of millions of euros creating massive statues to figures from the ancient kingdom of Macedonia and names airports highways and stadiums after these figures. Clearly, it insists on a collective identity with the ancient kingdom.

My question is: where is any evidence that this is remotely true? And how can we square it with the abundant and overwhelming evidence that there is absolutely no connection between the modern state, geography, language, people or culture and the ancient kingdom? Is it a self-deception?

Never mind the Greeks. The posters here have determined who the Greeks are. The Greeks are Albano-Slavo-Turko-Gypsy thieves and liars, the hysterical lunatics of Europe. OK, that's settled, so we can put that aside for now.

Now who are the people of the republic of Macedonia? And how exactly are they connected to the ancient kingdom of that name?

Amitie comme toujours,

Yes we have connections to ancient Macedonia search the posts you will find them. Do you have any connection to ancient greece?

[momce]

And no ancient Macedonians were not a Greek tribe.

[momce]

Cher Nexus:

Not that it is in the last important or that anyone cares, but I certainly do not doubt the national identity or feelings of the people of the republic of Macedonia. They enjoy a celebration of their identity and national independence that is important to them. It is possible for someone of good will to share to some extent the joy of others and wish them well.

As I have tried to explain in my posts, the creation of the state of the republic of macedonia has followed and is following the typical state formation of all nations, including Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Ethiopia and Japan.

From a strictly historical point of view, since that is so often brought up by posters on this site, I am asking for any credible evidence that the modern Republic and its people have any connection to the ancient kingdom. The government of the republic has spent tens of millions of euros creating massive statues to figures from the ancient kingdom of Macedonia and names airports highways and stadiums after these figures. Clearly, it insists on a collective identity with the ancient kingdom.

My question is: where is any evidence that this is remotely true? And how can we square it with the abundant and overwhelming evidence that there is absolutely no connection between the modern state, geography, language, people or culture and the ancient kingdom? Is it a self-deception?

Never mind the Greeks. The posters here have determined who the Greeks are. The Greeks are Albano-Slavo-Turko-Gypsy thieves and liars, the hysterical lunatics of Europe. OK, that's settled, so we can put that aside for now.

Now who are the people of the republic of Macedonia? And how exactly are they connected to the ancient kingdom of that name?

Amitie comme toujours,

Modern greeks are a polyglot people...why the greeks have nothing to say about Macedonia before the 5th century BC and until the 19th century, because its clear Macedonia was never considered part of Greece other then by 19th century+ greek propagandists.

[Mistracona]

@ momce and risto:

Piffle, piffle and more piffle.

I ask you to prove even the slightest, remotest connection between the modern Macedonian people and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, and I get the usual mouth-foaming attack on the Greeks in reply.

Is your obsessive, salivating and self-destroying hatred of the Greeks the only national identity you have?

Looks like that's it. Pity.

[Mistracona]

I have to admit that my absolute favourite "proof" of the connection between the modern Macedonian language and the ancient Macedonians was that dreamed up by those two clown "historians" from Skopje (I forget their names) who "proved" that the Demotic Egyptian on the Rosetta Stone was actually the "Macedonian"language similar to the one used today in the ROM.

Their "proof" was a lot of laughs like an old Abbot and Costello skit, and they became the Laurel and Hardy of academia always doing scholarly pratfalls on each others heads and slipping on linguistic bananas to everyone's delight.

On the less funny side, I read where they had taken their comedy act to American universities where they no doubt not only humiliated themselves but embarrassed their nation as well.

[Nexus]

I agree with you, the pseudo-theory with the "Rosetta Stone" is a fucking joke.

[ramo]

@ momce and risto:

Piffle, piffle and more piffle.

I ask you to prove even the slightest, remotest connection between the modern Macedonian people and the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, and I get the usual mouth-foaming attack on the Greeks in reply.

Is your obsessive, salivating and self-destroying hatred of the Greeks the only national identity you have?

Looks like that's it. Pity.

You pretend that you are discussing normally but actually you are ignorant.

I will ask you again what is your criteria for connection modern to ancient nations. If you are not tatar or greek gipsy then you should answer this so you can receive suiitable answer. Otherwise you are just another provocateur and we know that is all tatars and greek gipsies are doing on Macedonian forums. Or maybe i answered your question and you didn't like the answer so you just jump over my post pretending you didn't see the answer. That is weakness if it the case.

cheers

[Mistracona]

Any credible passage connecting, linguistically or historically, for example, the present people and nation of the ROM to the ancient kingdom of Macedonia will be greatly informative.

I have posted quotes from several sources, including ones from Skopje, stating that the culture and population that make up the present Republic can only be traced back to many "centuries after the demise of the ancient kingdom, " specifically to the 6th century A.D.

[Mistracona]

Of further help might be the question, "on what historical basis does the government in Skopje make its connection between the present state and its depiction of figures from the Ancient Macedonian kingdom and its naming of several infrastructures on those figures"

[Mistracona]

@ ramo:

Another example from Mary Beard professor of history at Cambridge University, England writing in the Times Literary Suppliment about Alexander:


"This seems to me to be at best rather touching. It's nice to think that there is still enough symbolic life in this drunken juvenile thug that someone wants him for their nation. At worst, it is faintly silly. The antecedents of Alexander are a bit murky, but in truth there isn't a cat in hell's chance that he was a Slav. I can see also that it could be a bit annoying to some Greeks who might want to try to claim Alexander for themselves (this is a better claim than the Slavic one, but not exactly cast iron)."

[momce]

I have to admit that my absolute favourite "proof" of the connection between the modern Macedonian language and the ancient Macedonians was that dreamed up by those two clown "historians" from Skopje (I forget their names) who "proved" that the Demotic Egyptian on the Rosetta Stone was actually the "Macedonian"language similar to the one used today in the ROM.

Their "proof" was a lot of laughs like an old Abbot and Costello skit, and they became the Laurel and Hardy of academia always doing scholarly pratfalls on each others heads and slipping on linguistic bananas to everyone's delight.

On the less funny side, I read where they had taken their comedy act to American universities where they no doubt not only humiliated themselves but embarrassed their nation as well.

Whats the point of your question? Its obviously loaded, so its obvious it will be thrown back in your face. Whats the connection modern greeks have to ancient greece?