Documents of Macedonian Immigration

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  • Daskalot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 4345

    Very good info Bratot, on the Macedonian emigration to todays Romania.
    Macedonian Truth Organisation

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15659

      Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
      Very good info Bratot, on the Macedonian emigration to todays Romania.
      And why would it be so unreasonable to believe this has happened for many centuries before as well? I am sure it has.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Daskalot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 4345

        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
        And why would it be so unreasonable to believe this has happened for many centuries before as well? I am sure it has.
        Risto, I know it has and that is what Bratot's quotes are telling us, I was merely pointing out that the area which they emigrated to is today known as Romania, back then it was most likely known as Dacia and Wallachia.
        Macedonian Truth Organisation

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15659

          No, no ... I was not attacking the notion. I was suggesting that the Macedonian influence has extended for many centuries and I guess I am a little tired about hearing how others have influenced us.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Bratot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2855

            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
            No, no ... I was not attacking the notion. I was suggesting that the Macedonian influence has extended for many centuries and I guess I am a little tired about hearing how others have influenced us.

            I couldn't agree more with you on this


            Alexandru Macedonski - Александар Македонски

            Poet şi prozator; dramaturg; şef de cenaclu literar, publicist român

            Романски поет и романсиер, што пишува и на француски јазик. Претставник на симболизмот. Се занимавал и со книжевната критика.

            A. Macedonski, Macedonschi or Macedonsky; March 14, 1854 – November 24, 1920) was a Wallachian-born Romanian poet, novelist, dramatist literary critic, known especially for having promoted French Symbolism in his native country, and for leading the Romanian Symbolist movement during its early decades. A forerunner of local modernist literature, he is the first local author to have used free verse, and claimed by some to have been the first in modern European literature. Within the framework of Romanian literature, Macedonski is seen by critics as second only to national poet Mihai Eminescu; as leader of a cosmopolitan and aestheticist trend formed around his Literatorul journal, he was diametrically opposed to the inward-looking traditionalism of Eminescu and his school.

            The poet's paternal family had arrived in Wallachia during the early 19th century. Of South Slav (Serb or Bulgarian)( ЖИМИ ГАЗОВ)[1] or Aromanian[2][3] origin, they claimed to have descended from Serb insurgents in Ottoman-ruled Macedonia.[2



            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15659

              Of South Slav (Serb or Bulgarian)( ЖИМИ ГАЗОВ)[1] or Aromanian[2][3] origin
              That really narrowed it down. Yet he called himself "Alexandru Macedonski - Александар Македонски". Go figure.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • TrueMacedonian
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3820

                Some more info on the Macedonian minority in Romania - http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedon...ry-t12079.html
                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                Comment

                • Piperka
                  Junior Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 33

                  Awesome thread!! Where'd you find all these documents?

                  I provided a link below that contains two ship records of men from Capari, Macedonia arriving in the US in 1906 and 1907. The men that arrived here from Capari all identified themselves as Macedonians (obviously!). Unfortunately, like other Macedonians that arrived at that time Macedonian was scratched out and instead Bulg/Bulgarian/Turkey was written over.

                  List of Passengers with Men from Capari Arriving in the USA (1906 & 1907) I was extremely excited to find ship records with people from Capa...


                  Again...great thread!

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3820

                    Originally posted by Piperka View Post
                    Awesome thread!! Where'd you find all these documents?

                    I provided a link below that contains two ship records of men from Capari, Macedonia arriving in the US in 1906 and 1907. The men that arrived here from Capari all identified themselves as Macedonians (obviously!). Unfortunately, like other Macedonians that arrived at that time Macedonian was scratched out and instead Bulg/Bulgarian/Turkey was written over.

                    List of Passengers with Men from Capari Arriving in the USA (1906 & 1907) I was extremely excited to find ship records with people from Capa...


                    Again...great thread!
                    Piperka I am glad you enjoyed this topic. Here's something especially for you from 1916;




                    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                    Comment

                    • TrueMacedonian
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 3820







                      It's nice to keep finding more info for this topic
                      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                      Comment

                      • Makedonetz
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2010
                        • 1080

                        TM great work bratko alot of information to read Spolj ti

                        That book the uprooted does it have a # so i can find it in my book stores?
                        Makedoncite se borat
                        za svoite pravdini!

                        "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
                        - Goce Delchev

                        Comment

                        • Daskalot
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 4345

                          A Snap Shot of Macedonian Early Immigration to USA

                          A Snap Shot of Macedonian Early Immigration to USA
                          Dusan Sinadinoski
                          May 26, 2010

                          A SNAPSHOT OF EARLY MACEDONIAN IMMIGRATION TO USA

                          By Dusan Sinadinoski

                          Records on early Macedonian immigration to the United States of America at the turn of the 20th century are of paramount importance for reaffirming a support of the Macedonian ethnic identity. But they also serve another extremely useful purpose: reflecting away attacks against the Macedonian ethnicity perpetrated by the Greek and Bulgarian states. Knowing the vital impact that these records will have on the many current debates and questions about the Macedonian identity, one can only wonder how it is possible that such a wealth of information remains obscure and basically untapped. A simple snapshot of it reveals startling discoveries which could shatter the opponents´ claim that the Macedonian ethnic identity is a recent creation.

                          Based on the United States Immigration and Naturalization records, approximately 15,000 people who entered the United States of America between 1895 an 1925 identified themselves as Macedonians -- even though the state of Macedonia did not exist at the time. The existence of a separate and a distinct Macedonian ethnic identity is still being feverishly denied by Greece and Bulgaria (two Balkan countries that are members of the European Union, but still trenched in 19th century Balkan ethnocentrism), who claim that the Macedonian state and Macedonians are not an outcome of a long and historically proven process, but rather a recent act of creation by Stalin and Tito during World War II. If this argument is true, then we are faced with a paradox: how is it possible for such a relatively large number of people to declare themselves Macedonians before, as the Greeks claim, the Macedonian existence was even created?

                          It is very difficult to determine the exact number of Macedonians who immigrated to America for many varying reasons. The main reason is that Macedonia did not become an independent country until 1991, after the break up of Yugoslavia. Throughout the centuries, especially in modern times, Macedonia was either a part of the Turkish empire as a whole or, after the Balkan wars, it was divided amongst Greece, Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia (Yugoslavia after 1945). Thus, many Macedonians who immigrated from these countries carried their passports and were identified as nationals from Greece, Bulgaria or Serbia (Yugoslavia). The ability to determine the exact number of Macedonian immigrants to America is further complicated by the fact that there was lack of recorded and verifiable standardized data in the above mentioned countries for the immigrants to carry with them for identification purposes. If any such records exist, it is doubtful that those records would have shown entries such as date of birth, place of birth, first and last name, current residence, ethnicity or nationality, gender, or occupation. It is reasonable to assume, therefore, that many Macedonian immigrants may have listed the name of their country of origin as their ethnic identity (whichever country happened to occupy Macedonia during that specific historical period). It is also likely that Macedonians, as well as other ethnic groups, may have not distinguished between the concepts of nationality and ethnicity since both were relatively new to the indigenous peoples of Macedonia. But many Macedonians , despite all odds in the wake of unprecedented and relentless attempts at the suppression of their ethnic identity and nationality, declared themselves as Macedonians upon arrival to America.

                          The data below (which was extracted from the United States Immigration and Naturalization records, as copied from the National Archives and Records Administration (MARA) microfilm), show the number of passengers that entered the various ports of the United States of America and declared themselves Macedonians:

                          of Passengers Port of Entry

                          13, 776 New York Passenger Lists, 1820 - 1957

                          338 Baltimore Passenger Lists, 1820 - 1948

                          256 Galveston Passenger Lists, 1896 - 1948

                          173 Boston Passenger Lists, 1820 - 1943

                          130 Atlantic Ports Passenger Lists, 1820 - 1873 and 1893 - 1959

                          46 Philadelphia Passenger Lists, 1800 - 1945

                          8 Detroit Border Crossing and Passenger Crew Lists, 1905 - 1957

                          6 New Orleans Passenger Lists, 1820 - 1945

                          2 Border Crossings from Canada to US, 1895 - 1956

                          2 Seattle Passenger and Crew Lists, 1882 - 1957

                          It is astonishing to discover that 14,737 passengers declared themselves as Macedonians during times when there was no official recognition of the Macedonian ethnic identity and no Macedonian state in existence (Yugoslavia recognized Macedonians as a nation but the Yugoslav passports had no separate entry for nationalities). These numbers in themselves are not significant in comparison to the millions of immigrants of other nationalities who entered the United Sates during those times. These numbers also pale in comparison to the approximately 600,000 Greek immigrants who came to the United States. However, what is significant is that these immigrants chose freely and consciously to identify themselves as Macedonians upon their arrival to America. There is no doubt that those people must have not only felt different from the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and the Turks, but they also had to have felt that they belonged to a unique ethnic group of their own -- which they identified as Macedonian.

                          These Macedonians are clearly and unambiguously speaking to those who still object to the Macedonian ethnic identity and who argue that the modern Macedonians are products of Stalin´s and Tito´s hallucinations. Hence, the argument that the modern state of the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian ethnic nationality was not historical but a political "creation" cannot explain how these people suddenly and magically "became" Macedonians upon their arrival to the United States.

                          Another very important set of data contained in the US Immigration and Naturalization records regarding the early Macedonian immigration to America indicates that they listed different countries as a country of origin as shown below:

                          Country of Origin Number of Passengers

                          Turkey 4,979

                          Greece 906

                          Macedonia 4,194

                          Bulgaria 267

                          Albania 5

                          Serbia 188

                          Here it is clearly shown that the largest number of Macedonian immigrants, 4,979 Macedonians to be exact, listed Turkey as their country of origin. This is because prior to the Balkan wars of 1913, all of Macedonia belonged to Turkey. But what really sticks out here is that almost an equal number of Macedonians listed Macedonia as their country of origin even though it had not become a state. Additionally, what pokes at the Greek and Bulgarian ethnically chauvinistic eyes is how such small numbers of Macedonians declare Greece and Bulgaria as their countries of origin. The reason for this, as we will see later, is that immediately after the Balkan wars, Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia did not have their propaganda campaigns for converting the Macedonian population into their own nationalities established within their newly "liberated" parts of Macedonia.

                          This was a period of massive migration from Macedonia to neighboring countries and to America because of depressive economic conditions and political persecutions. Soon afterwards, Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia intensified their efforts of converting the Macedonians to the point where they would send many of their own teachers and priests to Macedonia so that there were more educators in Macedonia than in their counties combined. As the data will show later, Greece, the "cradle" of democracy, would go even further by making sure that there would never again be Macedonians to emigrate from Greece to the United States of America.


                          However, not all immigrants who listed Macedonia as their country of origin declared themselves as Macedonians. In addition to the 14,737 Macedonians, many other immigrants from Macedonia identified themselves as follows:

                          Nationality Number of Passengers

                          Greek 13,199

                          Turkish 1,083

                          Bulgarian 3,594

                          Serbian 13

                          Albanian 331

                          It is shown here that the largest number of them identified themselves as Greeks. Significant numbers also declared themselves as Bulgarian and Turks. The large number of Greeks from Macedonia can be explained mostly by the fact that there were many Greeks living in the agean part of Macedonia. Some Macedonians may have been already converted to Greeks. However, what these numbers do not tell us is whether all of those immigrants were Greeks, Turks or Bulgarians, or whether they simply chose whichever way was most expedient to arrive at the shores of America. But to appropriately clarify their true nationality, additional research of other relevant data is needed, such as birth places, first and last names, the language which they spoke, customs which they practiced, and etc. For instance, the records show that some people declared themselves Turkish even tough their names were clearly Christian and Slavic. However, it also fair to assume that there were many immigrants from Macedonia of different nationalities since Macedonia was truly a multi-ethnic country prior to its subdivision by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia..

                          The picture of the Macedonian immigrants from Macedonia and the neighboring countries starts to look very different after World War I. As the Balkan countries started to emerge from the devastation of WWI and began to take hold of their destinies, they also started to inflame their nationalism by intensifying their efforts to crack down on the Macedonian ethnic identity. Thus, as soon as Macedonia disappeared from the Balkan map after WWI, so did the Macedonians. As we can see from the next table, the number of Macedonians coming from Greece dropped sharply until they completely disappeared from 1930s and on.

                          The table below of Macedonian immigrants to the United States of America coming from Greece clearly demonstrates to us the fate of the Macedonians in Greece:

                          Immigration Period Number of Macedonians from Greece

                          1890 - 1910 205

                          1911 - 1930 694

                          1931 - 1950 16

                          1951 - 1970 0

                          1971 - 1990 0

                          1991 - Present 0

                          Since all of Macedonia was under the Ottoman Empire prior to 1910, it is highly likely that the 205 Macedonians immigrants during this period must have come from Greece proper, otherwise they would have stated either Turkey or Macedonia as their country of origin. In addition, it can also be seen that the larger number of Macedonian immigrants from Greece came during the period between 1911 - 1930. However, the majority of the 694 immigrants came prior to 1925. To be precise, 557 Macedonians came between 1911 and 1925. But here is what is really distressing about this table: what happened to the Macedonians in Greece after 1930, when we know that at least half of the Macedonian territory ended up with Greece? Is it possible that the part of Macedonia which ended up in Greece had no Macedonians living there? Or is it quite possible that no Macedonian ever again left Greece for the United States of America? Is it, perhaps, conceivable to assume that the entire Macedonian population in Greece freely assimilated into Greek culture in a few decades while they survived as separate people for thousands of years! No matter what question is asked, it can be safely assumed that when it comes to ethnicity and the practice of chauvinistic politics in Greece, it all becomes Greek magic!

                          Of course, much of the data contained in the Immigration and Naturalization archive is raw data and it needs to be supported and evaluated in order for us to draw any meaningful conclusion about the early Macedonian immigration to the United States. But even this raw data highlights the unsustainable denials of the Macedonian ethnic identity. Unless one somehow believes that this data was either manipulated, or the passengers were coerced to declare themselves as Macedonian (both of which would make no sense), the presence of a unique Macedonian ethnic identity coming to United States from Macedonia is undeniable. How far back the Macedonians date is the task of historians, archeologists and other scientific researchers. But it is obvious that the Macedonian people freely spoke at the doorstep of their new country that welcomed them with the open arms.

                          People who are familiar with the history of the Balkan countries understand that there was not much standardized population record-keeping; such as births, deaths, names of inhabitants, and etc. Whatever records did exist were usually destroyed during the many wars they fought against each other and together against foreign invaders. In addition, the remaining data on the Macedonians were manipulated by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia through changing their last names, names of villages and cities, practice of customs, and other defining characteristic of the Macedonia ethnicity. Therefore, in light of these reasons, the US immigration records speak much louder when it comes to the true reality of the Macedonian nationality. For instance, when we examine the first and last names of the Macedonian immigrants, it is quite noticeable that they are typically Macedonian of Christian and Slavic background, such as : Petre Boris, Anta Bozin, Mire Arsa, Stanko Avram, Stojan Coteff, Milan Dime, Naum Foteff, Vidoja Sinadin, Ilija Mladen, etc. But after World War I, the Macedonian last names somehow changed over night and acquired typical Greek, Serbian, and Bulgarian endings of -os, -ich and -off. It is just another Balkan twist of the Macedonian ethnic identity.

                          In conclusion, this snapshot of the early Macedonian immigration is not meant to be proof for the existence of a separate and distinct Macedonian ethnic identity. The centuries-old continuous existence of the Macedonian people on the same territory is a fact requiring no proof. But this data does provide us with information supporting the notion that the Greek claim that the Macedonian nation was invented by Stalin and Tito is a ridiculous one. Therefore, the question which begs to be answered is how do we re-name people who have already named themselves? The Macedonians who sought the refuge under the torch of the welcoming lady spoke clearly and loudly that they are Macedonians. This is just another testament against the Greek´s attempt at re-naming the Macedonian people with dreamed up and derogatory names.
                          Source: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/158679
                          Macedonian Truth Organisation

                          Comment

                          • Daskalot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 4345

                            A very well written article by Dusan Sinadinoski, he is very correct when he says "wealth of information remains obscure and basically untapped" which is why we need to visit our local libraries and archives to find this information which remains hidden to the eyes of the world.

                            Search and you will find!
                            Macedonian Truth Organisation

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3820

                              Exactly right Daskale.
                              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15659

                                This is indeed a great find. What I find interesting is the migratorial paths of Macedonians. It seemed they were willing to go anywhere!!
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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