Your ancestry

[Epirot]

Epirot why separate the word Pravoslavni unless you are trying to imply something here.

Hi lavce,

Now I see that old post of mine. I separated it erroneously because I was writing in hurry. I had no intention to imply anything with that!

thnx

[lavce pelagonski]

Epirot why separate the word Pravoslavni unless you are trying to imply something here.

[Risto the Great]

Maybe some of you don't know but the event which resulted with declaration of Albanian state was the abolishment of bashibozuks in Macedonia and the new law passed from the multi-ethnic Istanbul parliament which forbids Albanians in Macedonia to carry any firearms and hand over all the weapons to the Turkish authorities. Albanians already knew that Young Turks was thinking to create autonomous Macedonia and they were already extremely disturbed with that since they would prefer to create bigger Albania which includes Macedonia.

So what you are saying is the Albanians could not continue to usurp territory without firearms that were simply unavailable to the Christians. Do you have anything new to add because this has been stated many times before and denied by most Albanians?

[Onur]

When exactly did this 'ban' take place?.

I am telling you SOM, never, at least not effectively. Like i said b4, that was just pathetic attempts of the last sultan of dying empire. Check the date here, American missioners report was in 1904 and as you know, Young Turks did coup d`etat in 1908 and they overthrew the monarchy and let alone banning a language, they formed the first multi-ethnic parliament in Istanbul.

Also ironic thing is, there was no quarrel or war between Albanians and Ottoman government when they declared their independence or afterwards. Ottoman authorities didn't even involve any conflict with them even tough they still had more than enough power to crush few bashibozuks in Albania if they would have wanted to.

Maybe some of you don't know but the event which resulted with declaration of Albanian state was the abolishment of bashibozuks in Macedonia and the new law passed from the multi-ethnic Istanbul parliament which forbids Albanians in Macedonia to carry any firearms and hand over all the weapons to the Turkish authorities. Albanians already knew that Young Turks was thinking to create autonomous Macedonia and they were already extremely disturbed with that since they would prefer to create bigger Albania which includes Macedonia.

As soon as Young Turk government asked from Albanians to leave their weapons, they refused to do that and their armed forces retreated back from Macedonia to the west, to the current Albania and immediately declared free Albanian state in there. Like i said above, Ottoman authorities didn't even respond to them with any force even tough they could have do that cuz Albania was Ottoman territory afterall, since early 15th century. It was eastern Roman and Bulgar kingdom territory b4 and there was no such a thing as Albania at that times.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot/Droog,

In the links you provided regarding the prohibition of the Albanian language, one states:

http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1941.html

When the relief work was ended in the spring of 1904, my Albanian friends begged me not to return to England but to travel through Albania and see conditions for myself. At this time the Turkish Government, afraid of the rising national spirit of the Albanians, tried to suppress it by forbidding the printing and teaching of the Albanian language under heavy penalties.

While the other states:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wPO...ttoman&f=false

.....Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78..Albanians...suddenly formed the first line of defence.....Despite the Sultan's efforts at fostering Ottoman loyalty....small numbers of Albanians sought to push the parameters....The Sultan resisted.....prohibited the introduction of Albanian into state schools......

When exactly did this 'ban' take place? And how does it differ from the prohibition of Macedonian from schools and churches? Petitions were made by Macedonians to Ottoman authorities for similar cultural 'autonomy', and none of them were accepted.

[Onur]

a)The Ottomans never accepted to recognize an Albanian millet, so no privileged status
b)The Albanian language was the only banned language of the empire

a) No empire officially recognizes any minority as a distinct society within them, just like Germanic people was considered as Romans again in Roman empire, even tough germanic people in British island had no relation whatsoever with someone from Rome, Florance. This is against the concept of empires since nationalism is the biggest enemy of empires. So, Ottoman empire was no different. There was muslims and non-muslims(christians, jews) and all of those was Ottoman citizens, non other. There was no distinct Turkish millet in Ottoman society either. All of these was just in official level tough but everyone knew who they were and where they belonged to but it was not right to speak out loud about this cuz it was against the official policy of empires.

b) Typical Balkan rhetoric , bit funny to read for me but boring too

Thats a lie and you cannot show any evidence about that except some missionary propaganda reports from as early as the late 10-15 years of the empire, which only covers the 1% of 620 years of Ottoman empire history. As Epirot did above. The attempts of the last sultan of the empire was just a weak attempt to secure the future of empire and stop uprisings. You cannot judge the 620 year old empire and the status of Albanians in it with just one event while it was decaying.

The Albanian usage was strictly not permited in the official life of Albania.
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1941.html

This is just another missionary propaganda from the last 10-15 years of 620 year old history of Ottoman empire. No language has ever been banned inside Ottoman empire cuz Ottoman authorities had no such concerns nor ability to do that without mass education system in medieval era. Also these authorities includes ethnic Albanians too, especially in Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, north Africa and various places in middle-east.

Apparently this text has been written by an American missioner. It`s funny to read how American missioner in Albania bashes Serbs, Greeks cuz you know, same missionary organization from US sent other missionaries to Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria and all other places and ironically the one in Greece bashed Albanians, Bulgarians. The one in Bulgaria bashes Greeks, Serbians. The one in Serbia bashes Albanians etc. Ofc the only common hate target was Turks in all of them. These people had one and only goal; Create as many different ethnic groups as possible inside the decaying empire and preferably create hate among themselves to rise the tension as high as possible. US missionary organizations was not alone either, there was British, French, Russians, Germans too, not only in Balkans, in Anatolia too, especially after 1890.

So, his words means nothing and even if he says the truth and Ottoman authorities tried to ban his books, it was probably because his destructive propaganda not because of it`s Albanian language. Also, i gotta remind you that most possibly the Ottoman authorities who tried to prevent this missioners work was ethnic Albanian Ottoman officers. So, what now? Ethnic Albanians tried to prevent Albanian language in Tirana, Albania?


I don't like Ottoman era myself and i always thought that they were responsible from the death of millions of Turks and the forced migration of millions more. I believe they should have leave all Balkans and Arabs to the mercy of great powers after French revolution and concentrate for only our homeland, so they would have prevent the suffering with way but they didn't do that in time. BUT it`s sad for me to see that EVEN Albanians got into the typical Balkan rhetoric. OK, I can handle Greek rhetoric but not yours, the Albanians while literally everything was in favor of you.


What you do is simply ungratefulness because your people ruled in three different continents with the opportunities provided to you by the Turks and especially you were allowed to do whatever you wish for in Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo. I think we can all say that this is something you will never achieve in the future.

I watched a documentary about Albania b4 and people was saying that it was forbidden for ordinary people to enter in to the several districts in Tirana because of the order of your communist dictator. It`s interesting for me to see while you cheer for Italians today and basically say nothing about your Russian yoke but you keep cursing to Ottoman era like Greeks does. If thats the case in official Albanian policy today, then i wonder what you got in your history books? Thats OK for Greeks cuz 100s of philosophers in the world worked 100s of years to create their myths b4 Greece has been founded but is your illyrian myths enough to fill a book properly? Do you have any provable history except Ottoman era? Do you raise your kids in there with only propaganda like Greeks does?

[Epirot]

Epirot, I believe you still have not commented on the rights of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia. Notwithstanding this, can you please advise why so many Albanians converted to Islam as opposed to the rest of the people in the region? My gut feeling is that it relates solely to economic opportunism. But I would like to hear any other reason whatsoever to justify such a dramatic action.

Hi Risto,

The passing of Albanians en masse in Islam may be explained also with the attempts of medieval Albanians to escape from the assimilation. The neighbouring countries held their own churches and this caused the assimilation of Orthodox Albanians, who passed either as Pravo-Slavs or Greeks. The convertion to Islam, escaped Albanians from the risk of assimilation. In this sense, due to Islam many Albanians were able to retain their identity. Let mention any concrete example: Muslim Albanians in Attica, Morea and adjecant areas could preserve their pure identity. This cannot be said for their Orthodox brethren who cowardly became as Greeks. Even in Kosova we have more or less the same example. Muslim Albanians could retain their identity, unlike Orthodox Albanians who passed as Serbs.

[Droog]

How exactly was this 'ban' enforced?

He[the Sultan] prohibited the introduction of Albanian into state schools and eventually banned publishing in the Albanian language.

[Risto the Great]

Epirot, I believe you still have not commented on the rights of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia. Notwithstanding this, can you please advise why so many Albanians converted to Islam as opposed to the rest of the people in the region? My gut feeling is that it relates solely to economic opportunism. But I would like to hear any other reason whatsoever to justify such a dramatic action.

[Epirot]

!That didn't happen by the Ottoman authority`s own will. Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians were allowed to realize that as a result of demands, blackmailing and pressures of great powers and Russia

I do not think as proper to portray Ottoman government as blameless. Ottoman authorities did nothing to prevent illegeal activities of Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks. Instead, Ottomans were afraid from general mobilization of the Albanians to protect their territories from Slavo-Greek pretensions.

Albania was suffering very heavily. Every other of the Sultan subject races had its own schools--schools that were, moreover, heavily subsidized from abroad. The Bulgarian schools in particular were surprisingly well equipped. Each school was an active centre of Nationalist propaganda. All the schoolmasters were revolutionary leaders. All were protected by various consulates which insisted on opening new schools and protested when any were interfered with.

Only when it was too late to stop the schools did the Turks perceive their danger. First came the school, then the revolution, then foreign intervention--and another piece of the Turkish' Empire was carved off. This had happened with Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria. The Turks resolved it should not happen in the case of Albania.

Albania was faced by two enemies. Not only the Turk dreaded the uprising of Albania, but Russia had already determined that the Balkan Peninsula was to be Slav and Orthodox. Greece as Orthodox might be tolerated. No one else.

The Turkish Government prohibited the printing and teaching of the Albanian language under most severe penalties. Turkish schools were established for the Moslem Albanians, and every effort made to bring up the children to believe they were Turks. In South Albania, where the Christians belong to the Orthodox Church, the Greeks were encouraged to found schools and work a Greek propaganda. The Turks hoped thus to prevent the rise of a strong national Albanian party.

The Greek Patriarch went so far as to threaten with excommunication any Orthodox Albanian who should use the "accursed language" in church or school.
Project Gutenberg's Twenty Years Of Balkan Tangle, by Durham M. Edith
CHAPTER NINE.
ALBANIA

http://vargmal.org/dan3458

Whether Albanian population has been decreased or not, you Albanians owe your current existence to your higher status inside Ottoman empire.

That's your personal opinion. But in reality, things were quite different. Albania as political entity enjoy no privilegies. The Albanian inhabited area was partitioned in four vilayets and our demands for having a common autnonmous vilayet (under the soverignty of Sultan) were ignored during all the times. Indeed its undeniable that Albanians as individuals reached the top ranks of Ottoman empire, but this doesn't bring any favor to us. These individuals were absorbed by the Ottoman way of thinking: to them Albanian national interest says nothing. They spent their energies to get a personal fame, but did not care much about what was happening to their homeland.

For centuries, Albanian pashas ruled in Macedonia, Kosovo and ofc in Albania and they were allowed to do whatever they wished for. Albanians even ruled in northern Africa and middle-east. For example, Egyptian people considers Albanian Mehmed Ali pasha as the founder of modern Egypt.

I do not deny that Albanian pashas enjoyed such superior positions in various provinces of Ottoman Empire. But it seem very improper to make generalisations here. You cannot say that Albanians ruled over these countries because they ruled there not as Albanians, but as Ottoman tools. It is so groundless the common myth that circulates in the historiography of modern countries (that were once part of Ottoman empire) that Albanians during Ottoman period experienced their golden days. Albanian uprisings were supressed harshly by Ottoman bajonets, our demands for the autonomy were constantly ignored. Do not judge the Albanian past in base of Albanian vezirs or prime-ministers.

So, you Albanians had these kind of opportunities and that`s why we have Albanian state now, otherwise you would end up shouting "zito ellines" like your southern kinsmen by becoming neo-hellenes or Serbian peasants like you said.

Yes, but the national revival of Albanians as reaction against assimilation, was not product of Ottomans. If Albanians could retained their identity, this was not because Empire desired so. It was because Albanians were organized to protect their own rights.

You Albanians keep cursing to us in your history books like Greeks does but for example, if we compare your situation during Ottoman era with the communist Russian yoke period, it`s vastly different.

That's goes for Greece, but not for Albania. In fact, it is so pointless when a modern Greek tries to portray Ottoman times as a hell for Greece, in a time where Greeks enjoyed the most privileged position in their history. Greeks with the will of Ottoman empire, enjoyed the ascendacy among all Orthodoxes of Balkans.
But this cannot say either for Albanians because we did not have even schools in our language.

You Albanians had their own privileged status inside Ottoman empire like Greek patriarchy had and you exploited that as much as you can just like Greeks did. I`m sorry to say that but If you didn't have these opportunities, then your glorious Epirotien heritage wouldn't mean jack shit since thats the hard truth

I was saying that our Illyro-Epirot heritage kept alive the spirit of our nation. It was a set of common substrat (common origin, common language and traditions) that gathered all of us in unity, and differed us from our neighbours. Later on, this Illyro-Epirotic heritage inspired Albanian patriots to revive the national spirit of Albanians.

[Epirot]

As for your language being banned, where was it banned, from use in a mosque? Was it banned when Evliya Celebi recorded a range of different Albanian terms during the 17th century? Was it banned in the villages, in family names, etc? How exactly was this 'ban' enforced?

I think there is a huge misconception by your side. As far as I see, Droog was referring to the banning of Albanian from the official level (administrate, schools, religious institutions, etc). The Albanian usage was strictly not permited in the official life of Albania.

"At this time the Turkish Government, afraid of the rising national spirit of the Albanians, tried to suppress it by forbidding the printing and teaching of the Albanian language under heavy penalties". http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1941.html

[Soldier of Macedon]

Your privileged status came as a result of your people accepting Islam en masse, while (most) the rest of your Christians neighbours became second-class citizens. As for your language being banned, where was it banned, from use in a mosque? Was it banned when Evliya Celebi recorded a range of different Albanian terms during the 17th century? Was it banned in the villages, in family names, etc? How exactly was this 'ban' enforced?

[Droog]

You Albanians had their own privileged status inside Ottoman empire

a)The Ottomans never accepted to recognize an Albanian millet, so no privileged status
b)The Albanian language was the only banned language of the empire

I rest my case.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Albanians had their own privileged status inside Ottoman empire like Greek patriarchy had and you exploited that as much as you can just like Greeks did.

This is a fact which cannot be denied.

[Onur]

In the beginning of XIX century, the number of Albanians outnumbered that of Serbs, and sometimes were more numerically than Greeks and Bulgarians. But in the next century the demographical structure will change drastically: Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians increased enormously their population. How come this? Because Ottoman Empire tolerated extremely the assimilating policies of those states: the missionary priests and churches took place everywhere in the territories held by Ottomans.

That didn't happen by the Ottoman authority`s own will. Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians were allowed to realize that as a result of demands, blackmailing and pressures of great powers and Russia.

Are you suggesting that Albanians prior to the 19th century had no ethnic consciousness about themselves? If you are making such allusion, then you are dead wrong because Albanians at least had a very strong ethnic bond: it was the common memory for the past. Albanians of Middle Ages considered themselves as descendants of Epirotes and Pyrrhus. The Epirotic heritage was so prevalent among Albanians, as many foreign writers were compelled to accept the very fact that Albanians trace their origin to the glorious Epirotes.

Whether Albanian population has been decreased or not, you Albanians owe your current existence to your higher status inside Ottoman empire.

For centuries, Albanian pashas ruled in Macedonia, Kosovo and ofc in Albania and they were allowed to do whatever they wished for. Albanians even ruled in northern Africa and middle-east. For example, Egyptian people considers Albanian Mehmed Ali pasha as the founder of modern Egypt. Your first leaders in Albania after Balkan wars were educated and raised in Istanbul, they were pashas of Ottoman empire. So, you Albanians had these kind of opportunities and that`s why we have Albanian state now, otherwise you would end up shouting "zito ellines" like your southern kinsmen by becoming neo-hellenes or Serbian peasants like you said.

You Albanians keep cursing to us in your history books like Greeks does but for example, if we compare your situation during Ottoman era with the communist Russian yoke period, it`s vastly different. I heard that your communist dictators wasn't even allowing ordinary people to walk in the streets of Tirana center. If we think about your ruling status during Ottoman era ,in vast areas like from Cairo to Kosovo, thats quite a difference, right? So, you better get the facts and quit dreaming by saying that "our Epirotien heritage kept us strong!", like supposedly only the emotions of Albanians was the reason for your existence.

You Albanians had their own privileged status inside Ottoman empire like Greek patriarchy had and you exploited that as much as you can just like Greeks did. I`m sorry to say that but If you didn't have these opportunities, then your glorious Epirotien heritage wouldn't mean jack shit since thats the hard truth!