Greek General Demetrios Kallergis on who fought the Turks (1860)

[Orfej]

On the net it's so easy to claim all kinds of stuff, without the burden of proof.

We know! Your claim is a prime example:

Originally Posted by Droog

Just a minor addition: He used the term Macedonians in the context of Aromanians.

Soldier of Macedon asked you some questions but i don't see you answering them! Why? Have you nothing to add except the attempt to make the Macedonians in this text Vlachs?

[Bratot]

I cited the historian V. Stojchev, I haven't made up such claim.

The name of Marko Bochvarot is evidenced in other sources also, there are still living persons bearing that name in today Macedonia.

There are also other Komiti bearing that name and there are few Macedonian folksongs about it.

Try by searching Bocvarot, Bochvarot, Бочварот.

Also Google books:

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&q=is+evidenced+in+other+sources+also&wrapid=tlif130332783173610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp#sclient=psy&hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=cffa9a2a3c6bffd0

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&q=is+evidenced+in+other+sources+also&wrapid=tlif130332783173610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp#sclient=psy&hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=Bochvarot&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=cffa9a2a3c6bffd0

However, the point of Kallergis stands for it.

[TrueMacedonian]

You are simply wrong.

As support of the Greek uprising in Macedonia was organized separate Negush uprising, most of those insurgents after joined the Greek revolution.

Christo Hadji Risto was commander of the cavalry squadron, and Marko Bochvarot[meaning Marko the Cooper] (whom the Greeks called Marcos Bocaris), commanded a larger infantry unit and was nominated for a commander of the major uprising forces.

Prominent participants in the Greek Revolution were Atanas from Pijanec, Nikola Atanas from Voden, Stavro Jovan of Ohrid, Sotir Damjanovic from Bitola, Koco of Bitola, Spiro Pascal, Gaco Angel of Voden. His son Mico in the Greek uprising received the rank of general.

The Greek rebellion involved some 1,200 volunteers from Macedonia.

Marco Bocari aka Marco Botsaris was a Souliot Albanian. This is undeniable. Also where was Hadji Christo born because he is questionable too.

[Droog]

YMarko Bochvarot[meaning Marko the Cooper] (whom the Greeks called Marcos Bocaris)

That's Marko Boçari, who also wrote one of the first modern Greek-Albanian dictionaries and whose descendants created Albanian Brothers league in the late 19th century....and he wasn't even from Macedonia, not to mention the ridiculous "Bochvarot" distortion. On the net it's so easy to claim all kinds of stuff, without the burden of proof.

[Bratot]

The text also doesn't indicate that the reference is about ethnic Macedonians, but we do know that at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups and that Aromanians played a very important role in Greece during and after the revolution, while in the region of Macedonia the movement was virtually non-existent. If you take into account the relations of Kallergis with Albanian(in fact even his wife was Albanian) and Aromanian leaders the conclusion becomes unavoidable.

You are simply wrong.

As support of the Greek uprising in Macedonia was organized separate Negush uprising, most of those insurgents after joined the Greek revolution.

Christo Hadji Risto was commander of the cavalry squadron, and Marko Bochvarot[meaning Marko the Cooper] (whom the Greeks called Marcos Bocaris), commanded a larger infantry unit and was nominated for a commander of the major uprising forces.

Prominent participants in the Greek Revolution were Atanas from Pijanec, Nikola Atanas from Voden, Stavro Jovan of Ohrid, Sotir Damjanovic from Bitola, Koco of Bitola, Spiro Pascal, Gaco Angel of Voden. His son Mico in the Greek uprising received the rank of general.

The Greek rebellion involved some 1,200 volunteers from Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The text also doesn't indicate that the reference is about ethnic Macedonians

That is a moot point because the 'ethnic' prefix isn't applied to Greeks or Albanians either, and Vlachs have been recorded as both.

......at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups.....

How many sources are there from pre 1860 Greece in which the Vlachs are referred to as Macedonians? How did the Vlachs contribute in battle during the war which led to the creation of a modern Greek state/entity?

[TrueMacedonian]

The text also doesn't indicate that the reference is about ethnic Macedonians, but we do know that at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups and that Aromanians played a very important role in Greece during and after the revolution, while in the region of Macedonia the movement was virtually non-existent. If you take into account the relations of Kallergis with Albanian(in fact even his wife was Albanian) and Aromanian leaders the conclusion becomes unavoidable.

Not quite so. Many Macedonians fought in the war for independence. One of them was named Makedonski. Were there Vlachs involved from Macedonia? I don't doubt it. Were there also Macedonians involved? Undeniably.

[Droog]

Droog, where in the text does it indicate a reference to the Vlachs, or is that just your take on it?

The text also doesn't indicate that the reference is about ethnic Macedonians, but we do know that at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups and that Aromanians played a very important role in Greece during and after the revolution, while in the region of Macedonia the movement was virtually non-existent. If you take into account the relations of Kallergis with Albanian(in fact even his wife was Albanian) and Aromanian leaders the conclusion becomes unavoidable.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Droog, where in the text does it indicate a reference to the Vlachs, or is that just your take on it?

[George S.]

voltron a quite a few greeks went to scisily to settle there so who knows??So don't be surprised as to who they really are.
Also i heard that sardinians speak a similar language to macedonians.?Perhaps they are macedonian.

[Onur]

General Kallergis probably meant the Greeks of Istanbul and their few representatives in Morea when he says "real Greeks".

I also said here several times that if there was people we can call as "Greeks" in 1820s, it was only the Greeks of Istanbul and the ones in Izmir city central, definitely not the ones in central Anatolia or Morea. We all know that central Anatolian Greeks was mostly christian Turks since it`s easily provable with their habits, language, culture and the documents/records of that time. We also know that so called Greeks of Morea was actually Albanians, Vlachs etc. This is also provable with some of their current habits, like their Albanian tongue `till 1930s and their fustanella.

The "real Greeks" of Istanbul was strictly against the creation of Greece in Morea. I remember that some of you asked from me to prove this claim when i wrote that here and i presented you several sources from books, declarations of patriarchy and phanariots from newspapers. In 1821, Istanbul patriarchy has been said that the rebels in Morea are not Greeks but bunch of bandits and deceived peasants.

These "real Greeks" wasn't degraded or something. They were just happy with their lives. The Greeks of Istanbul and Izmir was always rich, respected and they had high status among society by being Greek speaking Romans. On the other hand, the Albanian, Vlach peasants of Morea was poor, jealous about the money and properties of local landlords. Then they had been provoked by the priests and their western European philhellenes who dreamed for the resurrection of ancient Greece since Montesquieu.

That was the case with Romaoi of Istanbul and Izmir in 1821. They only started believe Greece in Morea after 1870s and then they started to work against Ottoman empire after 1890s, only after they realized that Ottoman days was going to be over soon.

[Droog]

Just a minor addition: He used the term Macedonians in the context of Aromanians.
If you want to find the term Macedonian used for the Macedonian language etc., you should read some of Androutsos letters.

[makedonin]

Out of courtesy I didnt want to respond to this thread.

In any case, He was probably trying to make a point by having foreigners assist the Siciilan revolution but failed miserably. Also, since when is Sicilian a race ? A feeble race? but Italians in his opinion are a different nationality from Sicilians.
I dont know, but to me this is a sign that the guy is not all there or the book is not right.

Are you familiar with the Quote:

Massimo D'Azeglio quoted from his memoirs: "L'Italia è fatta. Restano da fare gli italiani " literally: "Italy has been made; now it remains to make Italians", but often reported more colloquially as "We have made Italy. Now we must make Italians."

The quote is supposedly given in the first meeting of the parliament of the newly united Italian kingdom by his predecessor. (source1, source2)

What does it suggests according to you?

Nice find TM.

[Voltron]

Out of courtesy I didnt want to respond to this thread.

In any case, He was probably trying to make a point by having foreigners assist the Siciilan revolution but failed miserably. Also, since when is Sicilian a race ? A feeble race? but Italians in his opinion are a different nationality from Sicilians.
I dont know, but to me this is a sign that the guy is not all there or the book is not right.

[Daskalot]

Thank you TM, a very valuable source!
Voltron can you please add your insights to this thread.