Greek General Demetrios Kallergis on who fought the Turks (1860)

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    #16
    Originally posted by Droog View Post
    The text also doesn't indicate that the reference is about ethnic Macedonians
    That is a moot point because the 'ethnic' prefix isn't applied to Greeks or Albanians either, and Vlachs have been recorded as both.
    ......at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups.....
    How many sources are there from pre 1860 Greece in which the Vlachs are referred to as Macedonians? How did the Vlachs contribute in battle during the war which led to the creation of a modern Greek state/entity?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Bratot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2855

      #17
      Originally posted by Droog View Post
      The text also doesn't indicate that the reference is about ethnic Macedonians, but we do know that at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups and that Aromanians played a very important role in Greece during and after the revolution, while in the region of Macedonia the movement was virtually non-existent. If you take into account the relations of Kallergis with Albanian(in fact even his wife was Albanian) and Aromanian leaders the conclusion becomes unavoidable.
      You are simply wrong.

      As support of the Greek uprising in Macedonia was organized separate Negush uprising, most of those insurgents after joined the Greek revolution.

      Christo Hadji Risto was commander of the cavalry squadron, and Marko Bochvarot[meaning Marko the Cooper] (whom the Greeks called Marcos Bocaris), commanded a larger infantry unit and was nominated for a commander of the major uprising forces.

      Prominent participants in the Greek Revolution were Atanas from Pijanec, Nikola Atanas from Voden, Stavro Jovan of Ohrid, Sotir Damjanovic from Bitola, Koco of Bitola, Spiro Pascal, Gaco Angel of Voden. His son Mico in the Greek uprising received the rank of general.

      The Greek rebellion involved some 1,200 volunteers from Macedonia.
      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

      Comment

      • Droog
        Member
        • Mar 2011
        • 120

        #18
        Originally posted by Bratot View Post
        YMarko Bochvarot[meaning Marko the Cooper] (whom the Greeks called Marcos Bocaris)
        That's Marko Boçari, who also wrote one of the first modern Greek-Albanian dictionaries and whose descendants created Albanian Brothers league in the late 19th century....and he wasn't even from Macedonia, not to mention the ridiculous "Bochvarot" distortion. On the net it's so easy to claim all kinds of stuff, without the burden of proof.

        Comment

        • TrueMacedonian
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 3820

          #19
          Originally posted by Bratot View Post
          You are simply wrong.

          As support of the Greek uprising in Macedonia was organized separate Negush uprising, most of those insurgents after joined the Greek revolution.

          Christo Hadji Risto was commander of the cavalry squadron, and Marko Bochvarot[meaning Marko the Cooper] (whom the Greeks called Marcos Bocaris), commanded a larger infantry unit and was nominated for a commander of the major uprising forces.

          Prominent participants in the Greek Revolution were Atanas from Pijanec, Nikola Atanas from Voden, Stavro Jovan of Ohrid, Sotir Damjanovic from Bitola, Koco of Bitola, Spiro Pascal, Gaco Angel of Voden. His son Mico in the Greek uprising received the rank of general.

          The Greek rebellion involved some 1,200 volunteers from Macedonia.
          Marco Bocari aka Marco Botsaris was a Souliot Albanian. This is undeniable. Also where was Hadji Christo born because he is questionable too.
          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

          Comment

          • Bratot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2855

            #20
            I cited the historian V. Stojchev, I haven't made up such claim.

            The name of Marko Bochvarot is evidenced in other sources also, there are still living persons bearing that name in today Macedonia.

            There are also other Komiti bearing that name and there are few Macedonian folksongs about it.

            Try by searching Bocvarot, Bochvarot, Бочварот.

            Also Google books:






            However, the point of Kallergis stands for it.
            Last edited by Bratot; 04-20-2011, 04:21 PM.
            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

            Comment

            • Orfej
              Junior Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 51

              #21
              Originally posted by Droog View Post
              On the net it's so easy to claim all kinds of stuff, without the burden of proof.

              We know! Your claim is a prime example:

              Originally Posted by Droog

              Just a minor addition: He used the term Macedonians in the context of Aromanians.

              Soldier of Macedon asked you some questions but i don't see you answering them! Why? Have you nothing to add except the attempt to make the Macedonians in this text Vlachs?
              Last edited by Orfej; 04-20-2011, 04:29 PM.

              Comment

              • Orfej
                Junior Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 51

                #22
                Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                but Italians in his opinion are a different nationality from Sicilians.
                It's because he wrote the text in the 1860! You on the other hand look from the prism of today.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  #23
                  Droog, any answers to the questions I posed?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Pelister
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2742

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Droog View Post
                    The text also doesn't indicate that the reference is about ethnic Macedonians, but we do know that at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups and that Aromanians played a very important role in Greece during and after the revolution, while in the region of Macedonia the movement was virtually non-existent. If you take into account the relations of Kallergis with Albanian(in fact even his wife was Albanian) and Aromanian leaders the conclusion becomes unavoidable.
                    You New Greeks have a way of distorting things. I can see the interpretive mischief at work already in your interpretation of the text.

                    He is referring to the Macedonians, simple.

                    He is not referring to Greeks, because he is himself a Greek and treats the Greeks separately. He treats the Albanians separately. If he was referring to Aromanians/Vlachs, he would have said so, because they were also a distinctive group with their own name and well known throughout the region and the Greeks had their own words for the Vlachs - never 'Macedonian'.

                    Based on this information alone, he is treating the Macedonians as separate from the Greeks, Turks and Albanians, or as a distinctive group.
                    Last edited by Pelister; 04-21-2011, 01:43 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Voltron
                      Banned
                      • Jan 2011
                      • 1362

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Pelister View Post
                      You New Greeks have a way of distorting things. I can see the interpretive mischief at work already in your interpretation of the text.

                      He is referring to the Macedonians, simple.

                      He is not referring to Greeks, because he is himself a Greek and treats the Greeks separately. He treats the Albanians separately. If he was referring to Aromanians/Vlachs, he would have said so, because they were also a distinctive group with their own name and well known throughout the region and the Greeks had their own words for the Vlachs - never 'Macedonian'.

                      Based on this information alone, he is treating the Macedonians as separate from the Greeks, Turks and Albanians, or as a distinctive group.
                      Orfej sums this up pretty well when he said:

                      It's because he wrote the text in the 1860! You on the other hand look from the prism of today.

                      Comment

                      • Pelister
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2742

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                        Orfej sums this up pretty well when he said:
                        The Modern Greeks have identified Macedonians as a distinctive, unique and separate people for as long as there have been Modern Greeks in this world. As I said, the author distinguishes the Greeks, Albanians, Turks and Macedonians, as separate people.

                        He is not referring to Vlachs, because he doesn't name them.

                        Comment

                        • Voltron
                          Banned
                          • Jan 2011
                          • 1362

                          #27
                          The question you should be asking is why he left them out in the first place ? Isnt it strange that the biggest "foreign" patriots aside from Arvanites were Vlachs yet they get no mention ? I believe this is what Droog meant and it makes sense.
                          That doesnt discount Macedonian volunteers of course, we are just commenting on what Kallergis said.

                          Comment

                          • KingMac
                            Junior Member
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 19

                            #28
                            If he said Macedonians then it is most likely Macedonians he means. Why mean vlatsi?

                            Comment

                            • Voltron
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 1362

                              #29
                              Originally posted by KingMac View Post
                              If he said Macedonians then it is most likely Macedonians he means. Why mean vlatsi?
                              Because Vlachs were a key component in the creation of Modern Greece.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13675

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                                The question you should be asking is why he left them out in the first place ? Isnt it strange that the biggest "foreign" patriots aside from Arvanites were Vlachs yet they get no mention ? I believe this is what Droog meant and it makes sense.
                                That doesnt discount Macedonian volunteers of course, we are just commenting on what Kallergis said.
                                Voltron, in response to the above, I would ask you to answer the two questions that I posed to Droog earlier. Can you?
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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