The Rosetta Stone

[Delodephius]

Actually that is ΣΘΛΟΒΕΝΙΚΑ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΑ, (Sthlovenika Grammata), i.e. Sthlovenic Letters/Script.

Is that how it was written in the original manuscript of the biography?

[rosetta]

Is that how it was written in the original manuscript of the biography?

So, it seems and it makes more sense. Where did you find yours?

http://www.google.gr/#hl=el&source=hp&q=%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B2%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B1&oq=%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B2%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B1&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=141l3313l0l10l10l0l7l0l0l250l375l0.1.1l2&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a09947f2358394ca&biw=996&bih=622

http://www.google.gr/#hl=el&q=%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%89%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B1&oq=%CF%83%CE%B8%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%89%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B1&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=26093l26531l0l2l2l0l0l0l0l234l406l0.1.1l2&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a09947f2358394ca&biw=996&bih=622

[rosetta]

You're here to agitate, the rest of what you wrote is irrelevant, and if you're going to be irrelevant, stay out of the discussion(s). This is your last warning on all counts, your smug presence here is becoming a stench.

Agitate? Smug?
I don't think my theory was that bad.

[julie]

Thessa, you do agitate and you are aware of it!

[Delodephius]

So, it seems and it makes more sense. Where did you find yours?

In a grammar book of OCS. It doesn't cite a source, but perhaps that's how it was written in the manuscript and later copyist corrected it. Don't know. No source. Doesn't make much difference really, point was that it said Slavic not Macedonian or Bulgarian or any other name.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Agitate? Smug?
I don't think my theory was that bad.

You wouldn't, because you're just like your own theory. I've already said my bit, the rest is up to you.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Because the Macedonian language on the stone is very old and the modern Macedonian language has greatly evolved over the centuries, most of the old language is now unrecognizable to ordinary readers. That however does not mean it is not Macedonian. It only means that we cannot understand all of it. We can however, understand parts of it, especially the names of rulers, gods, titles, cities, etc., and some connecting words such as “of”, “in” “at”, “and” and so on, which are similar to modern Macedonian.

Soon I will do a comparison of their grammar and try to re-construct some sentences. Then I will compare to PIE sound laws and principles to see how close they are, and if they are in line with the development of Paleo-Balkan languages. This will probably be a waste of time but at least we cannot be accused of not analysing their works sufficiently enough. In fact, we have probably done more analysis on their works than any other location on the internet.

Before I answer that question, let me say that the center text is not the same as the bottom text; the names are not the same and the bottom text was written for the “ruled” while the center text was written for the “rulers”. So comparing the center text to the other texts does not help figure out what it says.

That doesn't make sense. Both the top and bottom text correlate, I don't see why the middle one shouldn't, aside from probably some isolated terms. The rest should logically be the same.

It is difficult to even imagine the implications that would arise from this if the Rosetta stone center text is actually accepted to be Macedonian, the ancestor of the modern Macedonian language!

Now I hope you can understand why so may people hesitate to be involved and why there is such a controversy surrounding this topic.

The reason why there is controversy is because it hasn't been sufficiently explained. If it could be conclusively and logically proven that the middle text is in Macedonian then their opponents wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Macedonians should be weary not to jump on the band-wagon prematurely like they have in the past with other 'fantastic' finds by Macedonian 'scholars'.

The clincher for me was when Aristotel Tentov, whom I met in Macedonia and know him to be a very serious, intelligent and dedicated person, told me that his team translated similar inscriptions found on ancient Macedonian coins (the kind that Greeks claim do not exist), on an artifact from the Vincha Culture, modern day Serbia and an on an artifact found in Russia. There inscriptions were written in the same syllabic alphabet found on the Rosetta stone center text and the language sounded similar to the familiar Aegean dialects, some words which even I could understand.

They have disregarded all previous work on this demotic script, which has been used to decipher other texts in the Egyptian language. I think it would be prudent to first prove or disprove the relationship with these other demotic examples before they start trying to draw comparisons with a Vinca script that was used thousands of years earlier.

So, if this is truly Macedonian, and I have no reason to believe it not to be, then why is there such a big controversy surrounding it especially in the Macedonian community?

It is more responsible to first have it accepted in the linguistic community, or at least credible segments of it, before presenting it to the Macedonian community as gospel. You don't gain acceptance by asking people of your own kind who aren't linguists to consider the text as Macedonian. While that may be good from a national perspective, it is not from a scientific one.

This is because the Macedonian community is still divided and does not know who or what to believe.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it! If anything, the reason why we are so critical of such 'revelations' is because in the past we have been taken for a ride not ony by foreigners but even by our own 'scholars' and 'leaders'. I think the Macedonian community has come a long way in this regard - we question everything, as we should, because the truth will always remain paramount, as it should.

Those Macedonians who tend to pay attention to foreign propaganda tend to question everything Macedonian, and tend to surround issues with confusion and mistrust, especially controversial issues such as the center text of the famous Rosetta stone.

It is completely inaccurate and ignorant to suggest that our quest for the truth be branded as one of Macedonians who pay "attention to foreign propaganda". Macedonians who promote unsubstantiated Macedonian perspectives do nothing to further the Macedonian Cause.

In my opinion if it were not for people like Boshevski and Tentov, today we all would be walking around happily believing the earth was flat.........

I used to respect most of your opinions once upon a time. I cannot agree with your above assertions, particularly given the fact that you have not delved into the matter and researched it yourself.

[Pelister]

There is no doubt that the Macedonian language has evolved - probably not as much as we think. The 16th century lexicon indicates that the Macedonian language, has remained largely unchanged, although that isn't entirely true, because clearly we have adopted Turkish words and English words more recently. But the core remains in tact. I think that an investigation of some kind should focus on the Macedonian words they are actually using in the translation of the text - because there is little doubt that much of the Macedonian vocabulary is drawn from words in use in very ancient times in our locality and surrounding region. But again, none of that would be of much use if they had not correctly identified the letters with the sounds. What I find intriguing is that in the translation, there are certain vowels missing in the words, and there are some words (just a few) they don't know the meaning of. I can understand this. What I find really interesting is that much of text is coherent, and historically accurate, simply by identifying groups or clusters of letters that repeat themselves throughout the text (right to left). SoM, I think the linguistic community is now looking it. I get the feeling that philologists at Chicago University and members of the American Philological Society are looking at the whole thing more closely.

[Onur]

There is no doubt that the Macedonian language has evolved - probably not as much as we think. The 16th century lexicon indicates that the Macedonian language, has remained largely unchanged, although that isn't entirely true, because clearly we have adopted Turkish words and English words more recently.

This rule is valid for all languages in he world, languages evolves in time due to cultural interaction and/or intermarrying between people who speaks different languages. And mostly after 19th century, artificial language replacements has been realized due to assimilation, because of widespread education of people in young age.

For example, one extreme example is the english language we speak now. It has been shaped after French Norman conquest of England in 12th century. Pre-Norman conquest english is unintelligible to the today`s english speakers. The classic example is beowulf poem written in 11th century. This was 11th century english. The english before French/Latin vocabulary. I am no expert but probably this was the english with germanic words only;

Gewat đa neosian, syţđan niht becom,
hean huses, hu hit Hringdene
ćfter beorţege gebun hćfdon.
Fand ţa đćr inne ćţelinga gedriht
swefan ćfter symble; sorge ne cuđon,
----------------------------------------------------
He then went to visit and see when night came
the high house how it, the Ring-Danes
after the beer-feast, had occupied;
he found then therein the nobles' company
slumbering after the feast; they did not know sorrow,

http://www.heorot.dk/beowulf-rede-text.html

[makedonche]

Can anyone verify the story that "Old Macedonian" was written downwards? I have heard this recently from an old Macedonian woman and want to know if it holds any water.

[RitaC]

They have disregarded all previous work on this demotic script, which has been used to decipher other texts in the Egyptian language.

This is what is so frustrating.

I suspect that Tentov and Boshevski are just ignorant to this. I hope so anyway, becuase there are serious considerations of fraud if they're not as stupid as i think they are.

A simple google search would have saved a lot of embarrassment. An authority such as the British museum is no less than 5th in ranking on the search results. How fvckin hard can it be?

I'm really disappointed that Risto Stefov is peddling this. My family have long considered him a sort of hero, mostly for his work in highlighting Greek atrocities of the 19th and 20th centuries. He should stick to this genre.

Whilst I am strongly against Macedonia's antiquisation, I do respect the great work done by a lot of good Macedonians in this field - many on this board - I can only imagine that the Tentovs and Boshevskis make it that much harder for them to operate in this field.

[indigen]

This is what is so frustrating.

I suspect that Tentov and Boshevski are just ignorant to this. I hope so anyway, becuase there are serious considerations of fraud if they're not as stupid as i think they are.

A simple google search would have saved a lot of embarrassment. An authority such as the British museum is no less than 5th in ranking on the search results. How fvckin hard can it be?

I'm really disappointed that Risto Stefov is peddling this. My family have long considered him a sort of hero, mostly for his work in highlighting Greek atrocities of the 19th and 20th centuries. He should stick to this genre.

Whilst I am strongly against Macedonia's antiquisation, I do respect the great work done by a lot of good Macedonians in this field - many on this board - I can only imagine that the Tentovs and Boshevskis make it that much harder for them to operate in this field.

So much VENOM against MACEDONIANS but very little against western "scholarship", which nearly ALL of it (or 99.9% of them) clearly and FRAUDULENTLY DENY THAT WE HAVE ANY CONNECTION with indigenous Macedonians (i.e. ancient Macedonians) and that we are "Slavs" who came there as settlers n 6th century AD or later.

Secondly, a Macedonian hating (self-hating) Slavoman is no better, IMHO, than an anti-Macedonian Grk, Grkoman, Bulgar, Bulgaroman, Serb, Srboman, Gheg/UCK or a Cryptoman of a whatever variety.

[Risto the Great]

So much VENOM against MACEDONIANS but very little against western "scholarship", which nearly ALL of it (or 99.9% of them) clearly and FRAUDULENTLY DENY THAT WE HAVE ANY CONNECTION with indigenous Macedonians (i.e. ancient Macedonians) and that we are "Slavs" who came there as settlers n 6th century AD or later.

This is a statement of fact and all Macedonians should be acutely aware that our history (and destiny) is in our hands.

[George S.]

our enemies make out that we are recent arrivals & that we don't desrve any respect for joining up with yugoslavia.We might as well have not existed.They try to disconnect any relationship we had with the ancients by claiming we are slavs & nothing else.They waged a never ending campaign to smear us & strip us of our heritage.Hence it is forwarded to the greeks.Because the greeks claim that they are the macedonians.We know that is a total fabrication & a big lie they have never been known by any other name like macedonian.
The fact is how we identify is as you put it in our hands & if we foul it up then we can kiss our identity goodbye.

[Delodephius]

There's an expression in my dialect of Slovak, "patilo". It cannot be translated into any language I encountered so far, perhaps some idiom exists but I am not aware of it. This expression fits Macedonians perfectly. I unfortunately cannot describe it in right terms without getting misunderstood.