Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

    The purpose of this thread will be to explore the possibility of a common linguistic branch that split from Proto Indo-European around the time of the satem sound change, which came after the commencement of the centum sound change. This branch would include the (Paleo-)Balkan and Balto-Slavic language families, and for the sake of simplicity the suggested Common Proto Language will be referred to here as BSB.

    If a BSB group existed since early antiquity, it would have as neighbours Celtic and Latin speakers on the west, Indo-Iranian speakers on the east, Greek speakers on the south and Germanic speakers on the north. These varying elements would influence perhipheral components of the BSB group, leading to a departure from certain commonalities, in some cases drastically. The western limit of the BSB group would generally correspond to the satem-centum line of distinction. The process of satemisation would have likely originated in the 'Scythian' areas and spread from that central location outwards. Although all of the BSB group would be affected by satemisation, the process would not complete before it began to break away into sub-groups, and as a result of diffusion the peripheral Balkan and Baltic areas would not evolve as much as the central areas. Each sub-group would develop its own characteristics resulting from interaction with different peoples, many of whom would be speakers of centum languages, further increasing its influence over satemisation in some areas. Among the group in the 'Scythian' areas, however, the latter would be more prevalent due to its insular location in which foreign interaction would be more common with speakers of satem languages instead. This may have also contributed to a secondary and more advanced level of satemisation in those parts.

    One of the most significant distinctions between the Hellenic language and the BSB group is the development of Proto Indo-European aspirated consonants bh, dh and gh. In Hellenic, they develop as unvoiced consonants:

    bh -> ph (φ)
    dh -> th (θ)
    gh -> kh (χ)

    However, the Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages take a different path of development, where the aspirated consonant largely becomes a voiced stop.

    bh -> b (β)
    dh -> d (δ)
    gh -> g (γ)

    All of these differences generate changes in pronounciation, as indicated in the below comparison of cognates between the two opposing linguistic groups along with the modern Macedonian and Hellenic languages.

    [To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> βερε, bere (Anc. Maced.) -> bere (Mod. MK)
    [To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> φερε, phere (Anc. Attic) -> fere (Mod. GK)

    [To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Murderer] - δανῶν, danon (Anc. Maced.) -> [Drowned or Strangled] - udaven (Mod. MK)
    [To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Dead] - θανών, thanon (Anc. Attic) -> [Death] - thanatos (Mod. GK)

    Modern Hellenic generally displays the same characteristics as ancient Hellenic (ph/f, th, kh), while modern Macedonian displays the same characteristics as ancient Macedonian (b, d, g), at least where it concerns these words and consonants. This would therefore mean that the ancient Macedonians pronounced the name of their country as Μακεδονία with a hardened voiced stop d, just like in Macedonian today, and unlike either ancient or modern Hellenic sound laws which produce the th and dh consonants.

    I would like to note that this is a theory which is still at a developing stage and by no means concrete. It may prove to be incorrect, it may not, but I will continue to add further information, and I would appreciate it if all posts on this thread are specific to the topic at hand.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    #2
    The school of thought which promoted a commonality between Thracian and Illyrian languages is still prevalent among some, for example:


    Sorin Paliga (2002) - "According to the available data, we may surmise that Thracian and Illyrian were mutually understandable, e.g. like Czech and Slovak, in one extreme, or like Spanish and Portuguese, at the other."
    Others such as I. I. Russu argue that there should have been major similarities between Illyrian and Thracian, and a common linguistic branch (not merely a Sprachbund) is probable.
    Not much has been determined in the study of Paeonian, and some linguists do not recognize a Paeonian area separate from Illyrian or Thracian. The place of Ancient Macedonian is also undetermined. Paliga (2002) states: "It is therefore difficult to say whether the ancient Macedonians spoke an idiom closer to Thracian, Illyrian, Greek or a specific idiom."
    This is just to demonstrate that the idea of a common Paleo-Balkan language family is not a new phenomenon. The lack of further and adequate investigation on this possible commonality on the part of Western scholars led them to search for other theories without having concluded this one. A compilation of surviving words from all Paleo-Balkan languages would then prove to be valuable if one considers a common ancestor for all of them.

    One of the difficulties when comparing them to others is due to lacking sentences or paragraphs in the Paleo-Balkan languages. This leaves open a number of possibilities. Are the words we have at our disposal today mere Greek or Latin interpretations? Did Paleo-Balkan languages borrow grammar in addition to vocabulary from their neighbours? Are the case endings and suffixes authentic or loans? Another factor to consider is that PIE languages did not have definite articles, but rather, relied heavily on the following case endings; nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, genitive, vocative, locative and instrumental.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13675

      #3


      “The surmised ‘Slavic migration’ is full of inconsistencies. There is no ‘northern Slavic language’, it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic… The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic… and connected with Anatolia… Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age… The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture… agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs… The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven…].
      The above view was expressed by Mario Alinei, who was a professor at the University of Utrecht and the president of Atlas Linguarum Europae. Alinei suggests that the Slavic-speaking people of the Balkans have been in the region for much longer than that assumed by supporters of the 6th century 'migration' theory.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13675

        #4
        Below are two examples of how words evolved in Paleo-Balkan (Thracian in this case) and Balto-Slavic from the initial PIE root:

        [I, Me] – eǵ’hom (PIE), eź’ham (PBS), asn (THR), jāzun (PSL), az’ (OCS), aš (LTH) es (LTV), jas (MKD), jaz (SLO)

        [Gold] – ghltom (PIE), saltas (THR), zalta (PSL), zelts (LTV), zlato (OCS, MKD)* also žolto for 'yellow'

        Neither Albanian or Greek words for "I, me" and "gold" are close to Thracian.

        It is interesting to note that in place of a voiced sound like 'z' or 'zh', Thracian often opts for the devoiced 's'. This is also true in the case of the word semela meaning 'earth', which stems from the PIE root dʰéǵʰōm; in today's Slavic languages it begins with 'z' as in zem(l)ja - interestingly, so does Phrygian (Brygian, according to Paleo-Balkan sound change) with its variant of zemelo. However, Thracian does not demonstrate this characteristic consistently, for there also exist words such as zilma for 'greenery' (zelen is 'green' in Macedonian) and bruzas for 'quick' (brza is 'quick' in Macedonian), where the sound is voiced rather than devoiced. This, of course, counts only if our assumptions about the intended sound for each of the letters is correct.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Toska
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 137

          #5
          brzas = quickly in modern macedonian

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13675

            #6
            Here is a little expirement I have tried in the past and thought worthy of trying again. Basically, I will write a sentence in English, translate it in Macedonian, and then highlight the Thracian connection. Were this to have included the Baltic languages to supplement Macedonian it woud be an even larger sentence.

            Son, in the mud there is a beast, a white or golden dragon, quickly to the ford child!

            In mod. Macedonian, and directly below highlighted in red, Thracian correspondences in the same sentence:

            Sinko, vo kalta ima dzver, bel ili zlaten zmej, brzo na brodot chedo!
            Suku, vo chala ima zveri, bal ili salta zum, bruza ana burd kentha!

            The Thracian words can be found here: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/thra.html

            I have removed the suffixes ending in -s from the Thracian words for simplification. Of course, this alone does not prove that the Thracians even said it the way it is written above due to our lack of knowledge concerning grammar, syntax, etc. Nevertheless, it is an interesting comparison as it demonstrates how closely some Thracian words resemble Macedonian and other Slavic languages. With regard to the word for 'ford' in English, I wrote 'brod' because, although it developed a meaning which came to mean 'boat' in Macedonian, its older meaning was 'ford', as indicated below:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_(crossing)

            Similarly, in Slavic languages, word brod comes from the linguistic root that means "river-crossing" or "place where river can be crossed". Although today "brod" in Croatian language literally means "ship", Slavonski Brod in Croatia, as well as Makedonski Brod in Macedonia and other place names containing "Brod" in Slavic countries are named after fords.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Дени
              Member
              • May 2010
              • 136

              #7
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              The Thracian words can be found here: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/thra.html
              To begin exploring this, I would suggest you first assemble a list of these Thracian words that have [assumed] Slavic and Baltic cognates (showing their reconstructed proto-forms).

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                #8
                Originally posted by Дени View Post
                To begin exploring this, I would suggest you first assemble a list of these Thracian words that have [assumed] Slavic and Baltic cognates (showing their reconstructed proto-forms).
                Already in the process. I will do so in the coming days, and compare them to Greek and Albanian also. Here are some reference links for PIE roots, for the purpose of this discussion:

                Liberal Arts at UT offers over 40 majors and many top-ranked graduate programs in the social sciences and humanities taught by 750 faculty.

                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  #9
                  Дени, here is a list of Thracian words from the previous sample sentence. The only words that appear to be shared by Greek are thér - 'beast' and ana - ‘at, towards’, the latter also used in Albanian - 'at'. What are your thoughts?

                  • THR suku - ‘boy, juvenile’; PIE suhnús, suhyús - 'son'; LTH súnus - ‘son’, MKD sin, sinko - 'son, sonny'
                  • THR chalas - ‘mud’; PIE kuel* - 'muddy'; MKD kal, kalesh - 'mud, brown(ish)' *Can't replicate font.
                  • THR zvéri - ‘an animal, a beast’; PIE ghuēr* - 'wild animal'; LTV zvērs - 'beast'; MKD dzver - 'beast' *Can't replicate font.
                  • THR balios - 'white'; PIE bhel - 'white'; MKD bel - 'white'
                  • THR saltas - ‘golden’; PIE ghltom - 'gold'; PSL zalta - 'gold'; LTV zelts - 'gold'; MKD zlato, žolto - 'gold, yellow'
                  • THR zum - ‘dragon’; MKD zmei, zmija - 'dragon, snake'
                  • THR bruzas - ‘quick’; PIE bheres - 'quick, festinate'; LTH bruz'as - ‘somebody who runs to and fro’; MKD brz, brzo - 'quick'
                  • THR ana - ‘at, on’; PIE anō, - 'on, along'; MKD na - 'on, at'
                  • THR burd - ‘a ford’; MKD brod - 'ford, boat'
                  • THR kenthas - ‘child, descendant’; PIE ken - 'young'; LTV re-cens - ‘young, new’; PBSl kenda, kinda - 'child'; MKD chedo, chendo - 'child'


                  Here is a comparison of the same sentence, this time with Greek and Albanian translations respectively from google translate, so I am not sure if the grammar is 100%. However, it is clear (in this example at least) that they do not share the same affinity with Thracian that Macedonian and other Slavic languages do.

                  MKD - Sinko, vo kalta ima dzver, bel ili zlaten zmej, brzo na brodot chedo!
                  THR - Suku, vo chala ima zveri, bal ili salta zum, bruza ana burd kentha!
                  GRK - Gios, sti laspi iparhei ena thirio, ena leiko i hriso drako, grigora stin perasma paidi!
                  ALB - Bir, në baltë ka një kafshë, një dragua i bardhë ose të artë, shpejt me fëmijën ....!
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • slovenec zrinski
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 385

                    #10
                    Very interesting indeed SoM.

                    Comment

                    • Agamoi Thytai
                      Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 198

                      #11
                      Some comments on your remarks:
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      One of the most significant distinctions between the Hellenic language and the BSB group is the development of Proto Indo-European aspirated consonants bh, dh and gh. In Hellenic, they develop as unvoiced consonants:

                      bh -> ph (φ)
                      dh -> th (θ)
                      gh -> kh (χ)

                      However, the Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages take a different path of development, where the aspirated consonant largely becomes a voiced stop.

                      bh -> b (β)
                      dh -> d (δ)
                      gh -> g (γ)

                      All of these differences generate changes in pronounciation, as indicated in the below comparison of cognates between the two opposing linguistic groups along with the modern Macedonian and Hellenic languages.
                      It's true that some scholars consider ancient Macedonian was a distinct non-Greek language because in all Greek dialects the development of the Proto Indo-European aspirated consonants was usually this:
                      bh -> ph (φ)
                      dh -> th (θ)
                      gh -> kh (χ)

                      While in Macedonian the aspirated consonants turned to voiced stop.

                      bh -> b (β)
                      dh -> d (δ)
                      gh -> g (γ)

                      Hence we have in Macedonian Βίλιππος,Βερενίκη,Ξανδικός instead of "proper" Greek Φίλιππος,Φερενίκη,Ξανθικός.However most of these scholars have in mind only classic Attic while they ignore all the other ancient Greek dialcets,where the development of bh,dh,gh to b,d,g (as it happens in Macedonian) is not unknown.Some examples:
                      1)From PIE *kumbho/eh- (small vessel,bowl) we have anc.Greek "kumbe".Should it not be "kumphe"?
                      This book introduces Proto-Indo-European, describes how it was reconstructed from its descendant languages, and shows what it reveals about the people who spoke it between 5,500 and 8,000 years ago. Using related evidence from archaeology and natural history the authors explore the lives, thoughts, passions, culture, society, economy, history, and environment of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. They include chapters on fauna, flora, family and kinship, clothing and textiles, food and drink, space and time, emotions, mythology, and religion, and describe the quest to discover the Proto-Indo-European homeland.

                      2)From PIE *bhergh- (height,fort) we have anc.Greek "purgos" while it should be "parkhos".
                      This book introduces Proto-Indo-European, describes how it was reconstructed from its descendant languages, and shows what it reveals about the people who spoke it between 5,500 and 8,000 years ago. Using related evidence from archaeology and natural history the authors explore the lives, thoughts, passions, culture, society, economy, history, and environment of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. They include chapters on fauna, flora, family and kinship, clothing and textiles, food and drink, space and time, emotions, mythology, and religion, and describe the quest to discover the Proto-Indo-European homeland.

                      3)In Aristophanes' The Birds, the form κεβλήπυρις keblēpyris ('red-cap bird') is found, showing a Macedonian-style voiced stop in place of a standard Greek unvoiced aspirate,i.e. Macedonian κεβ(α)λή keb(a)lē versus Greek κεφαλή kephalē ('head').

                      4)Athena was called "Κεβλήγονος" (Keblegonos) i.e. "born from the head" because she was born from Zeus head.However in "proper" Greek it should be "Κεφαλήγονος" (Kephalegonos),because the "proper" Greek word for head is "κεφαλή" while "κεβ(α)λή" is Macedonian :
                      A miscellany of learned literature from Alexandria and beyond. This volume presents a selection of Hellenistic prose and poetry, ranging chronologically from Philitas of Cos through Alexander of Aetolia and Hermesianax of Colophon to Euphorion of Chalcis and Parthenius of Nicaea, whose mythography Sufferings in Love is the major work in the collection. Knowledge of many of these texts has been increased by papyrological discoveries in the last century, yet few of them have appeared in English translation before now. Taken together, these works represent the geographic and stylistic range of a rich and inventive period in Classical literature.

                      5) the shift from Β to Φ (ΡΗ) or from Δ to Θ was also common in Greek names.Thus we have the name Φαίδρος (Phaedrus) which literaly means "the shining one"

                      and this name derives from the verb "φαίθω" (phaitho) which means "to shine"

                      Also the names Βρασίδας and Φρασίδας were used interchangeably,like ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ and ΒΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ:
                      Φρασίδας from Thurii (Θούριοι),a Greek colony in Southern Italy:

                      And the known Spartan general Brasidas:

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      [To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> βερε, bere (Anc. Maced.) -> bere (Mod. MK)
                      [To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> φερε, phere (Anc. Attic) -> fere (Mod. GK)
                      This verb is actually "φέρω" (fero) in Greek and its primary meaning is "to bear" and then "to bring",nothing close to "gather".What's the exact meaning of "bere" in Macedonian?Apparently it's a cognate of Greek fero.
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      [To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Murderer] - δανῶν, danon (Anc. Maced.) -> [Drowned or Strangled] - udaven (Mod. MK)
                      [To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Dead] - θανών, thanon (Anc. Attic) -> [Death] - thanatos (Mod. GK)
                      "Thanon" means "deceased" in anc.Greek,not death.The word for death is the same in both anc. and mod. Greek,"thanatos".
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      This would therefore mean that the ancient Macedonians pronounced the name of their country as Μακεδονία with a hardened voiced stop d, just like in Macedonian today, and unlike either ancient or modern Hellenic sound laws which produce the th and dh consonants.
                      The consonant Δ was pronounced in ancient Greek as D,unlike the modern Greek pronounciation of Δ as "th" in English "this".
                      "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                      Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                      Comment

                      • Agamoi Thytai
                        Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 198

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Дени, here is a list of Thracian words from the previous sample sentence. The only words that appear to be shared by Greek are thér - 'beast' and ana - ‘at, towards’, the latter also used in Albanian - 'at'. What are your thoughts?

                        • THR suku - ‘boy, juvenile’; PIE suhnús, suhyús - 'son'; LTH súnus - ‘son’, MKD sin, sinko - 'son, sonny'
                        • THR chalas - ‘mud’; PIE kuel* - 'muddy'; MKD kal, kalesh - 'mud, brown(ish)' *Can't replicate font.
                        • THR zvéri - ‘an animal, a beast’; PIE ghuēr* - 'wild animal'; LTV zvērs - 'beast'; MKD dzver - 'beast' *Can't replicate font.
                        • THR balios - 'white'; PIE bhel - 'white'; MKD bel - 'white'
                        • THR saltas - ‘golden’; PIE ghltom - 'gold'; PSL zalta - 'gold'; LTV zelts - 'gold'; MKD zlato, žolto - 'gold, yellow'
                        • THR zum - ‘dragon’; MKD zmei, zmija - 'dragon, snake'
                        • THR bruzas - ‘quick’; PIE bheres - 'quick, festinate'; LTH bruz'as - ‘somebody who runs to and fro’; MKD brz, brzo - 'quick'
                        • THR ana - ‘at, on’; PIE anō, - 'on, along'; MKD na - 'on, at'
                        • THR burd - ‘a ford’; MKD brod - 'ford, boat'
                        • THR kenthas - ‘child, descendant’; PIE ken - 'young'; LTV re-cens - ‘young, new’; PBSl kenda, kinda - 'child'; MKD chedo, chendo - 'child'


                        Here is a comparison of the same sentence, this time with Greek and Albanian translations respectively from google translate, so I am not sure if the grammar is 100%. However, it is clear (in this example at least) that they do not share the same affinity with Thracian that Macedonian and other Slavic languages do.

                        MKD - Sinko, vo kalta ima dzver, bel ili zlaten zmej, brzo na brodot chedo!
                        THR - Suku, vo chala ima zveri, bal ili salta zum, bruza ana burd kentha!
                        GRK - Gios, sti laspi iparhei ena thirio, ena leiko i hriso drako, grigora stin perasma paidi!
                        ALB - Bir, në baltë ka një kafshë, një dragua i bardhë ose të artë, shpejt me fëmijën ....!
                        I see there is apparently a similarity among some ancient Thracian and modern Macedonian (or of other Slavic languages) words.This is expected for IE languages as i also see some common cognates between Thracian and Greek.Perhaps the Thracian resembles more modern Macedonian than Greek because they are both satem languages and thus they share the same phonological changes while Greek is centum.However trying to reconcstruct a sentence in Thracian selecting certain words that resemble modern Macedonian is a game that i can also play with Greek:

                        English
                        Bright child it's hot in the room,instead to dig transversely should i break the water tower with the spear?

                        Greek
                        φαιδρό παιδί είναι θερμά στο δώμα αντί να σκάπτω εγκάρσια να θραύσω ανά τον υδάτινο πύργο με δόρυ?
                        faidro paidi einai therma sto doma,anti na skapto egarsia na thrauso ana ton ydatino pyrgo me dory?

                        Thracian
                        gaidrus paivis germa dama anti skapt skarsas traus na hydrenas berga taru

                        Thracian vocabulary:
                        gaidrus=bright,clear
                        paivis=child
                        germa=hot,worm
                        dama=settlement,place for settling
                        anti=against
                        skapt=to dig
                        skarsas=transverse
                        traus=to break
                        udrenas=water,aquatic
                        berga=hill,bank
                        taru=spear


                        Greek cognates:
                        phaedros=bright
                        pais=child
                        therma=hot,warm
                        doma=room,home
                        anti=against,instead
                        skapto=to dig
                        engarsios=transverse
                        thrauo=to break
                        ana=on,at
                        hudrinos=aquatic
                        purgos=tower
                        doru=spear
                        "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
                        Polybius, Histories, 9.35

                        Comment

                        • Onur
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 2389

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post

                          It's true that some scholars consider ancient Macedonian was a distinct non-Greek language
                          I don't think this is even debatable. Ancient Greeks called Macedonians as "barbars" and the meaning of the word "barbar" was just "non-Greek speaker, stranger, foreigner" in Hellenistic era. So this means that Macedonian native tongue wasn't Greek but they were probably speaking Greek as a foreign language like Persians and Palestinian Aramaic speaking people because in that era, Greek was the lingua franca in whole mediterranean and middle-east. It was the language for commerce and literature `till Latin started to become the new lingua franca and then even Greeks themselves abandoned their own language in favor of Latin. IMHO, that was when ancient Greek culture died out with Latin influence and the beginning of christianity. Then for like ~1500 years, ancient Greek culture has been condemned, completely forgotten `till western Europeans decided to revive it according to their imagination and their own designation in post-renaissance era. You know, they re-shaped it and then completely isolated ancient Greek culture by converting it as "western only" according to their ethnocentric and egocentric post-renaissance philosophy. So, thats why and how your current country, Greece has been born in 19th century.


                          Btw If you consider that Greek speaking Macedonians(barbars) was Greek then you can also consider that Persians and all middle eastern people including Jews and Jesus was Greek since some of them was speaking Greek too. Ofc this would be a pathetic claim.

                          The word "barbar" gained other meanings like "non-christian, savage" in Roman era, much later than Alexander. I guess these new meanings to the word "barbar" added when Romans first encountered with German tribes during the great migration period of 4th century and especially when they faced with the Huns at early 5th century. You know, they even invented new word for expressing more extreme form of barbarism(according to them), "Vandalism". You know, Vandals was actually the name for a German tribe but since according to the Romans, they were doing destruction without a reason, so they called it "Vandalism".
                          Last edited by Onur; 12-20-2010, 06:09 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Bratot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 2855

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Onur View Post
                            I don't think this is even debatable. Ancient Greeks called Macedonians as "barbars" and the meaning of the word "barbar" was just "non-Greek speaker, stranger, foreigner" in Hellenistic era. So this means that Macedonian native tongue wasn't Greek but they were probably speaking Greek as a foreign language like Persians and Palestinian Aramaic speaking people because in that era, Greek was lingua franca in whole mediterranean and middle-east. It was the language for commerce and literature `till Latin started to become the new lingua franca and then even Greeks themselves abandoned their own language in favor of Latin. IMHO, that was when ancient Greek culture died out with Latin influence and christianity and for like ~1500 years ancient Greek culture has been condemned, completely forgotten `till western Europeans decided to revive it according to their imagination and their own designation in post-renaissance era.


                            Btw If you consider that Greek speaking Macedonians(barbars) was Greek then you can also consider that Persians and all middle eastern people including Jews and Jesus was Greek since some of them was speaking Greek too. Ofc this would be a pathetic claim.

                            The word "barbar" gained other meanings like "non-christian, savage" in post-Roman era, much later than Alexander.

                            BarBar= Macedonians = gabblers

                            According to the Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) - barh means a speech/language, and the word Barbar-a means gabblering, stammering, unintelligible speech or language. http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&tinput=barbara&country_ID=&trans=Translate&direction=SE I don't have to remind
                            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

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                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              #15
                              Originally posted by slovenec zrinski View Post
                              Very interesting indeed SoM.
                              Thanks mate, I thought the similarities between Thracian and our languages may catch your attention as you've always had an interest for these topics. if you see anything that requires input from a Slovenian perspective, please share. It would have been great to also get the opinion of Slovak on this.

                              Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai
                              However most of these scholars have in mind only classic Attic while they ignore all the other ancient Greek dialcets,where the development of bh,dh,gh to b,d,g (as it happens in Macedonian) is not unknown.
                              It may not be unknown in Greek dialects, but it is rare, and is most definetly the exception and not the norm. The fact that some of them exhibit such a consonant change may have resulted from interaction with 'barbarian' peoples, it has little to do with the differences between Greek dialects themselves, which are largely distinguished by vowel changes. However, in Macedonian and the other Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian and Illyrian, this sound change is the norm. That is the significant difference.
                              Apparently it's a cognate of Greek fero.
                              It is a cognate, the words are related, and the Macedonian variant is closer to anc. Macedonian than either modern or anc. Greek is.
                              "Thanon" means "deceased" in anc.Greek,not death.The word for death is the same in both anc. and mod. Greek,"thanatos".
                              Don't clutch at straws. This is how I obtained the etymology:
                              Macedonian δάνος dánοs ('death', from PIE *dhenh2- 'to leave'), compare Attic θάνος thános
                              The fact is, they are cognate words relating to 'death', and they both consist of the same sound change in both ancient and modern Macedonian.
                              The consonant Δ was pronounced in ancient Greek as D,unlike the modern Greek pronounciation of Δ as "th" in English "this".
                              In any case, Macedonian today pronounces it the same as anc. Macedonian, unlike mod. Greek. With regard to the consonant 'd', are you sure it was always a voiced stop in anc. Greek?
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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