Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    #76
    The Paleo-Balkan tribe known as the damastini lived somewhere in today's Macedonian republic. They were either a Paeonian or Illyrian tribe who eventually became part of Macedonian territory after Phillip II of Macedon defeated the Illyrian ruler Bardyllis. I would like to propose a possible etymology for this word. To begin with, the first part of their name highlighted as damastini, looks identical to the Thracian word for a 'settlement', see below:


    dama ‘settlement, place for settling’ [Old-Ind. dháman- ‘place for dwelling’, Greek thaimós ‘house’].
    This also has a cognate in mod. Macedonian and other Slavic language through the word dom which means 'home'.

    The second part of their name highlighted as damastini looks extremely similar, if not identical, to a characteristic of Slavic languages. The development of this characteristic was as follows:

    The purpose of this thread will be to explore the possibility of a common linguistic branch that split from Proto Indo-European around the time of the satem sound change, which came after the commencement of the centum sound change. This branch would include the (Paleo-)Balkan and Balto-Slavic language families, and for the

    Proto-Slavic kt -> old Maced. sht -> mod. Maced. kj.
    So, in old Macedonian (and in some of today's Macedonian dialects interchangeably, including Bulgarian) you have kushta for 'house' and then kukja, also nosht for 'night' and then nokj, etc. In some regards, Proto Balto-Slavic and its derivatives demonstrate more conservative features than Paleo-Balkan words. A complete comparison would be as follows:

    damastini (Paleo-Balkan)
    domashtini (Old Maced.)
    domakjini (Mod. Maced.)

    As can be seen, if the cited phonological development is accepted then it gives a perfect match for the plural of the Macedonian word for 'host', which is domakjini. The beginning and the sound change in the second part of the word are the same. Furthermore, the ending of in with the plural ini corresponds to the earlier example cited on this thread, with the Illyrian and Slavic (fem.) adjective endings, both of which become ina, as seen below:

    The purpose of this thread will be to explore the possibility of a common linguistic branch that split from Proto Indo-European around the time of the satem sound change, which came after the commencement of the centum sound change. This branch would include the (Paleo-)Balkan and Balto-Slavic language families, and for the

    Scodrina from the Illyrian capital Scodra, an adjectival form that appears on local coins.
    ........in Slovak and Serbian you can create a possessive adjective by adding -in, -ina or -ino to a feminine noun, which is equivalent to -ov, -ova and -ovo for masculine nouns. For example: Marko > Markova knjiga; Ana > Anina knjiga.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Delodephius
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 736

      #77
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Slovak, I extracted this brief sentence from wiki:

      A number of spoken Macedonian dialects still retain the 't' at the end of such words. So, for the word 'can', I would say mozhi but I have cousins from other parts of Macedonia that say mozhit. Krste Misirkov also uses such a form in his writings. Isn't this an example of the infinitive in Macedonian?
      It could also be a verb ending for third person singular. For example 'pisati' = to write:
      1. pišem
      2. pišeš
      3. piše(t)
      Here you can see two different roots, usually called the present and infinitive roots. They originate from the same common root which could be reconstructed, but due to sound changes they evolved differently, hence piš- and pis-. Original should be pis-, since "s" changed into "š" before the front vowel "e". Same is with "mogti" from mog- evolved into mož- in možem, možeš, može(t), etc.
      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

      Comment

      • Delodephius
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 736

        #78
        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        The Paleo-Balkan tribe known as the damastini lived somewhere in today's Macedonian republic. They were either a Paeonian or Illyrian tribe who eventually became part of Macedonian territory after Phillip II of Macedon defeated the Illyrian ruler Bardyllis. I would like to propose a possible etymology for this word. To begin with, the first part of their name highlighted as damastini, looks identical to the Thracian word for a 'settlement', see below:



        This also has a cognate in mod. Macedonian and other Slavic language through the word dom which means 'home'.

        The second part of their name highlighted as damastini looks extremely similar, if not identical, to a characteristic of Slavic languages. The development of this characteristic was as follows:

        The purpose of this thread will be to explore the possibility of a common linguistic branch that split from Proto Indo-European around the time of the satem sound change, which came after the commencement of the centum sound change. This branch would include the (Paleo-)Balkan and Balto-Slavic language families, and for the



        So, in old Macedonian (and in some of today's Macedonian dialects interchangeably, including Bulgarian) you have kushta for 'house' and then kukja, also nosht for 'night' and then nokj, etc. In some regards, Proto Balto-Slavic and its derivatives demonstrate more conservative features than Paleo-Balkan words. A complete comparison would be as follows:

        damastini (Paleo-Balkan)
        domashtini (Old Maced.)
        domakjini (Mod. Maced.)

        As can be seen, if the cited phonological development is accepted then it gives a perfect match for the plural of the Macedonian word for 'host', which is domakjini. The beginning and the sound change in the second part of the word are the same. Furthermore, the ending of in with the plural ini corresponds to the earlier example cited on this thread, with the Illyrian and Slavic (fem.) adjective endings, both of which become ina, as seen below:

        http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=4965&page=7
        You might be on to something here. The "št" did evolve into different forms over the centuries, in Slovak for example it is "c" (ts), for example moc "power" < mošt, noc "night" < nošt. Another reason why Old Slavonic and the reconstructions of Proto-Slavic should be used when examining the ancient languages of Balkans.
        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13675

          #79
          Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
          It could also be a verb ending for third person singular. For example 'pisati' = to write:
          1. pišem
          2. pišeš
          3. piše(t)
          Here you can see two different roots, usually called the present and infinitive roots. They originate from the same common root which could be reconstructed, but due to sound changes they evolved differently, hence piš- and pis-. Original should be pis-, since "s" changed into "š" before the front vowel "e". Same is with "mogti" from mog- evolved into mož- in možem, možeš, može(t), etc.
          I think you're right, because it does seem to relate to the third person. It is unfortunate that those that standardised Macedonian like Koneski excluded several such features from the spoken dialects, which are still alive today.
          You might be on to something here. The "št" did evolve into different forms over the centuries, in Slovak for example it is "c" (ts), for example moc "power" < mošt, noc "night" < nošt. Another reason why Old Slavonic and the reconstructions of Proto-Slavic should be used when examining the ancient languages of Balkans.
          Thanks mate, and good point regarding Proto-Slavic. I will keep searching for more examples, slowly but surely I am beginning to develop a set of 'principles' that can be followed which help in the understanding of Paleo-Balkan languages through Balto-Slavic. Still much work to be done though.
          Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
          Osiris, here are some examples of how similar Latin and Gaulish were:
          http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia..._language.html
          Slovak, do you think Ligurian forms part of a dialectal continuum which links the proposed Italo-Celtic group? It seems to be close to both Celtic and Latin, but not exactly the same as either.

          Recently I have been looking at the word 'Anatolia'. I understand that in Greek it means 'east', but is there a case to be put forth that the actual name itself is Pre-Greek? It has been suggested that the name also means 'sunrise' in Greek, but neither the word for 'sun' or 'rise' seem to corroborate that. I could be wrong, as I have only started to research it. Any thoughts? Could it possibly be related to a Paleo-Balkan language?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13675

            #80
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            Here is something I was looking at recently. The word ezero, which is a cognate in mod. Macedonian for the Illyrian word osseria, shows that the ss is rendered as a z in the former. Similarly, the mod. Macedonian words zlato and zemja have Thracian cognates in salta and semla, which show the devoiced fricative s instead of voiced z. While these are not exclusive characteristics, they are common.

            If the above principles were applied to the ancient Macedonian word for a fighting spear, which was sarissa, the word in mod. Macedonian would be rendered as zariza. I found this result interesting, particularly because of the below words present in mod. Macedonian (and other Slavic languages).

            zarez - cut, incision
            zaraz(a) - to infect, to set in

            Also interesting are the Slovak words zaraz and zarazen, which mean to be 'struck by' and 'cut short' respectively. All of the above is an observation that I have not seen made before.
            Slovak, in relation to the above, are the Macedonian/Slovak words demonstrating examples of morphology? Is the 'za' at the beginning of the word a prefixation or a part of the stem? The reason I ask is because of the below Thracian words:
            balios 'white', [IE *bhel-].
            zbel- (from an initial *zibel-) ‘shining; a thunderbolt, a lightning’ [Latv. zibele ‘shining’, zibelęt ‘to flash, to twinkle, to shine’].
            In Macedonian one could say bel for 'white', but also izbeli or zabele for 'whiten', or zabelezhi for 'highlight', although 'iz' and 'za' are not the same prefix. The same would apply for other Slavic languages also I would imagine. Not sure if they're related, interested in your thoughts.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Delodephius
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 736

              #81
              In some of the words above, like zlato and zemja, they are part of the root, while in zaraziti, zabeležiti, izbeliti they are prefixes.

              In Proto-Slavic zlato was zalto due to metathesis (liquid consonants, R and L, switch their positions with a vowel, usually A or O, sometimes E, when between other consonants). Examples: arbъ > rabъ (slave), arvьnъ > ravьnъ (flat), arzьtoka > razьtoka (river delta), ortajь > ratajь (plougher) (however orati (to plough) remained the same because R was followed by a vowel A), armę > ramę (shoulder), alčьnъ > lačьnъ (hungry), orlьja > rolьja (field), olkьtъ > lakьkъ (elbow), oldьja > ladьja (ship), olni > lani (last year), balto > blato (mud), etc. Additonally, the prefix raz-/roz- as in razbiti, razmysliti, razbuditi, etc. was orzь-/arzь.
              The word oltarь from Latin altare (altar) was imported into Old Church Slavonic centuries after the metathesis occurred, hence it remained unchanged in Slavic (otherwise it would be latarь).

              Therefore when looking at Paleo-Balkan and Proto-Balto-Slavic words it should be understood that they exhibit the forms AL/OL and AR/OR instead of modern LA/LO and RA/RO.
              Last edited by Delodephius; 06-13-2011, 08:20 AM.
              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
              This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

              Comment

              • Po-drum
                Junior Member
                • Mar 2009
                • 66

                #82
                Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                In Proto-Slavic zlato was zalto due to metathesis (liquid consonants, R and L, switch their positions with a vowel, usually A or O, sometimes E, when between other consonants). Examples: arbъ > rabъ (slave), arvьnъ > ravьnъ (flat), arzьtoka > razьtoka (river delta), ortajь > ratajь (plougher) (however orati (to plough) remained the same because R was followed by a vowel A), armę > ramę (shoulder), alčьnъ > lačьnъ (hungry), orlьja > rolьja (field), olkьtъ > lakьkъ (elbow), oldьja > ladьja (ship), olni > lani (last year), balto > blato (mud), etc. Additonally, the prefix raz-/roz- as in razbiti, razmysliti, razbuditi, etc. was orzь-/arzь.
                The word oltarь from Latin altare (altar) was imported into Old Church Slavonic centuries after the metathesis occurred, hence it remained unchanged in Slavic (otherwise it would be latarь).

                Therefore when looking at Paleo-Balkan and Proto-Balto-Slavic words it should be understood that they exhibit the forms AL/OL and AR/OR instead of modern LA/LO and RA/RO.
                Indeed, liquids metathesis is very comfortable? way for explanation of unexplainable, especially development of so called Old Slavonic. More characteristic examples are melko, gard..
                So my questions are:
                Is there such tendency in some other languages?
                What are the evidences supporting this theory?
                Macedonia - my shoulders from ruins and skies

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  #83
                  Is there such tendency in some other languages?
                  Only in Slavic languages. Other IE languages preserved the pre-metathestic forms.

                  What are the evidences supporting this theory?
                  The obvious fact that Slavic languages have a different position of liquids while other IE languages don't?

                  My question is, why would this be unexplainable?
                  Last edited by Delodephius; 06-14-2011, 02:56 PM.
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    #84
                    Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                    In some of the words above, like zlato and zemja, they are part of the root, while in zaraziti, zabeležiti, izbeliti they are prefixes.
                    Do you think it possible for the anc. Macedonian word 'sarissa' to have had a prefix, eg: sa-rissa?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Droog
                      Member
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 120

                      #85
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Do you think it possible for the anc. Macedonian word 'sarissa' to have had a prefix, eg: sa-rissa?
                      Given that -issa is the suffix: no

                      Comment

                      • Delodephius
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 736

                        #86
                        I don't know SoM, but if Droog says it's a suffix then most likely not.

                        The metathesis ended somewhere in the 8th century, and it wasn't completed in East Slavic, so Common Slavic language must have still had the older forms like Palaeo-Balkan languages did.
                        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13675

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Droog View Post
                          Given that -issa is the suffix: no
                          You make a point if we are to assume that -issa is the suffix as it is in other words. And although that may seem the most probable in the absence of corroborative evidence for the argument against, it cannot be conclusively proven either.

                          Just with regard to the word for 'gold', it is interesting how the word in each language below came to its eventual form:

                          aurum (Latin)
                          aur (Romanian)
                          ar (Albanian)
                          oro (Italian)
                          ór (Irish-Celtic)

                          zar (Old Iranian)

                          salta (Thracian)
                          zalto (Proto-Slavic)
                          zelts (Latvian)
                          zlato (Macedonian)

                          gold (German)
                          guld (Dannish)
                          gull (Norwegian)

                          In most cases, Thracian will be grouped with Balto-Slavic.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13675

                            #88
                            Slovak, are you able to provide an example of how the word 'chest' or 'chast' (honour) in Slavic languages evolved from its PIE root?
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Delodephius
                              Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 736

                              #89
                              In Germanic it is 'gold', from Proto-Germanic *gulţan. It originates from PIE *ĝʰel- "to shine" through *gelwaz "yellow", from which also Slavic 'zalto' "gold" and 'žъltъ' "yellow" also originate. It would seem that in Germanic, Palaeo-Balkan and Proto-Balto Slavic the word for "gold" originated from the word for "yellow", while in Italo-Celtic it comes from the word for "ore", from 'ear' "Earth". Well, at a glance that what it seems.
                              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                              This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                              Comment

                              • Delodephius
                                Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 736

                                #90
                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                Slovak, are you able to provide an example of how the word 'chest' or 'chast' (honour) in Slavic languages evolved from its PIE root?
                                Sorry SoM, I have not been able to find anything. Given that in Proto-Slavic it was *čьstь, it could be *kistь, *kistis, or something like that in Proto-Balto-Slavic, I'm not sure.
                                अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                                उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                                This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                                But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                                Comment

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