Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks mate. In the meantime, here is an example of some Illyrian names as they appeared in Greek or Latin characters, which gives an indication of nominative and genitive cases - but again, one cannot be sure if they have been given a Greek or Latin interpretation, or if they are the native forms. If they were native, then it is an example of Illyrian names without the IE suffix ending in -s, as shown in the second example:

Andes (masc.) - Andia (femn.)
Panto (masc.) - Pantia (femn.)
Aplis/Aplinis (masc.) - Aplo/Aplonis (femn.)**

**Aplis/Aplo occurs as a root for other names in Liburnia and Istria (Croatian and Slovenian coasts), for example, Magaplinus.

John Wilkes also writes the following: Though they are separately identified in the historical sources there was undoubtedly a close association between the Liburni and Veneti, from the distribution of distinctive names with the stems hosti in Hostiducis (genitive), or vols-/volt- in Volsetis (gen.), Volso, Volsonus, Voltimesis (gen.) and Voltis(s)a.

He also writes the following: ...........Scodrina from the Illyrian capital Scodra, an adjectival form that appears on local coins.

This part is interesting, because there can be found parallels in today's Slavic languages where a noun becomes an adjective, like in English - hunger (noun) and hungry (adjective). Here are some examples in Macedonian that have a similar adjective ending as Illyrian:

Noun - Adjective, femn.

Med (honey) - Medena (sweet)
Zhed (thirst) - Zhedena (thirsty)
Voda (water) - Vodena (wet)

Scodra - Scodrina <----- Illyrian example.

Although the data we have of Paleo-Balkan languages is rare, we still have enough to re-construct certain elements. This may be one of them, and although I haven't looked into it too deeply, I cannot find parallels in Greek or Albanian.

What do you think Slovak?

[Delodephius]

I don't think 'Scodrina' is equivalent to those types of adjectives. What you provided are actually diminutives. I'm not certain about Macedonian, but for example in Slovak and Serbian you can create a possessive adjective by adding -in, -ina or -ino to a feminine noun, which is equivalent to -ov, -ova and -ovo for masculine nouns. For example: Marko > Markova knjiga; Ana > Anina knjiga. You cannot say "Markina knjiga" because then you are implying that it is a girl named Marka (common female name in my town), or "Anova knjiga" because then it would mean it's a guy named Ano. It is essential the equivalent of 's in English.

So Scodrina could refer to whatever was written on that coin, or the coin itself, if in Illyrian the word coin was a feminine noun, that it belongs to the city of Scodra, or "Scodra's (coin)".

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't think 'Scodrina' is equivalent to those types of adjectives. What you provided are actually diminutives.

I agree.

I'm not certain about Macedonian, but for example in Slovak and Serbian you can create a possessive adjective by adding -in, -ina or -ino to a feminine noun, which is equivalent to -ov, -ova and -ovo for masculine nouns. For example: Marko > Markova knjiga; Ana > Anina knjiga.

That makes sense. It exists in feminine nouns for Macedonian too, words like mamina, zhenina, etc.

So Scodrina could refer to whatever was written on that coin, or the coin itself, if in Illyrian the word coin was a feminine noun, that it belongs to the city of Scodra, or "Scodra's (coin)".

I don't think it meant 'coin'. It could just simply mean - (coin) of scodra, scodra's (coin).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Slovak, would you know if such an adjectival form exists in Greek or Albanian?

[Soldier of Macedon]

For reference: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1160

[Soldier of Macedon]

Slovak, would you know if such an adjectival form exists in Greek or Albanian?

Slovak, can you advise on the above?

[Delodephius]

Slovak, can you advise on the above?

Sorry SoM, I cannot find anything similar in Albanian or Greek. At least, I could not find anything in my Ancient Greek grammar. And Albanian is recorded only since the 15-16th century. Maybe someone more familiar with these languages could.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No problem Slovak.

What is your opinion on the below? Is this considered a lexical innovation common to Paleo-Balkan and Slavic, given the suggestion that the word for 'snake' in Slavic derives from the word for 'earth', as the means of transportation for a snake is to slither along the earth? Let me know your thoughts.

Thracian: semela (from an earlier *zemela) 'earth' -> zuml 'dragon'
Mod. Maced: zemja 'earth' -> zmija, zmei 'snake, dragon'

[Soldier of Macedon]

Another thing - do you think there is a possibility of any connection between the words 'bere' (gather) and 'vera' (trust), given that they are synonyms in some respects?

http://synonyms.woxikon.com/english-synonyms/have%20faith%20in.php

[Delodephius]

I'm not sure about "vera" and "ber-". In Latin it's almost the same with "vero" (I believe) and "fero" (I carry), but whether there is a common origin, perhaps. Faith is something you bring, carry in, your mind and soul. If there was I would say that "vero" originates from "fero" since faith is a later concept than carrying objects. Just a hypothesis. The LAtin word "fero" is cognate the same word in other IE languages: Greek "pherō", Sanskrit "bharati", Old English "beran" (English "bear"), Old Irish "berid", Old Armenian "berem", Avestan "beraiti", OCS "bǐrati", "berǫ", Tocharian "pär".

SoM, you are familiar with the Infinitive form in linguistics? It is a form that has been lost in Macedonian and Bulgarian, however it is used extensively in other Slavic languages and most verbs are shown in the infinitive as a neutral form. For example, "bere" would never be shown in that form in Slavic linguistics, but in the form "brati" (to carry). The infinitive is equivalent to English "to". Most verbs you'll find in this form and it is much easier to locate them as the infinitive form has changed the least between Slavic languages, only the final -ti can be -t or -ť in Western and Eastern Slavic languages, but the root is the same and best preserved than in other forms (present or past tense for instance, "beriem" in Slovak, "berem" in Serbian, "beru" in Russian, etc. but in all it is "brat(i)").

[makedonin]

The word "vera" is most likely cognate with the Latin word "verus">true and comes from from Proto-Slavic *věra, and both words the Latin and Slavic are derived from PIE *weh₁ro- "true" (source, source2)

Words like:
provere > to check over, examine, to verify
uvere > convince someone in something
zavere > certify something
veren > accurate
verenik > fiance (similar to Italian "vero" >wedding ring, wedding band )

make it more clearer that "vera" has something to do with reliance on something to be true, something trust worthy, similar to the English word "faith" which ultimately comes from Latin "fides" > "trust, faith, confidence, reliance, credence, belief" both English and Latin ultimately coming from PIE base *bheidh. (source)

I don't think that "vera" has anything to do with the word "bere".

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the replies to both Slovak and Makedonin.

What is your opinion on the below? Is this considered a lexical innovation common to Paleo-Balkan and Slavic, given the suggestion that the word for 'snake' in Slavic derives from the word for 'earth', as the means of transportation for a snake is to slither along the earth? Let me know your thoughts.

Thracian: semela (from an earlier *zemela) 'earth' -> zuml 'dragon'
Mod. Maced: zemja 'earth' -> zmija, zmei 'snake, dragon'

Slovak, what do you think of the above?

[Delodephius]

It is possible. The word for Earth in Slavic and Thracian is also apparent in Iranian "zam", so the word pre-dates the word for 'snake' and 'dragon'.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Agreed, the word for 'earth' would naturally be older; this is what suggests a common and unique Thracian/Slavic lexical innovation that led to 'snake' and 'dragon'. That Iranian also has 'zam' for earth indicates a common parent language that split from PIE in which certain sound changes took place - prior to Indo-Iranian separating from that common branch. However, if Indo-Iranian languages do not use a similar word for 'snake' or 'dragon', it would then suggest that the lexical innovation common in both Thracian and Slavic transpired after Indo-Iranian split from the common branch.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, you are familiar with the Infinitive form in linguistics? It is a form that has been lost in Macedonian and Bulgarian, however it is used extensively in other Slavic languages and most verbs are shown in the infinitive as a neutral form. For example, "bere" would never be shown in that form in Slavic linguistics, but in the form "brati" (to carry).

Slovak, I extracted this brief sentence from wiki:

The infinitive in Russian usually ends in -t’ (ть) preceded by a thematic vowel, or -ti (ти), if not preceeded by one; some verbs have a stem ending in a consonant and change the t to č’, such as *mogt’ → moč’ (*могть → мочь) "can".

A number of spoken Macedonian dialects still retain the 't' at the end of such words. So, for the word 'can', I would say mozhi but I have cousins from other parts of Macedonia that say mozhit. Krste Misirkov also uses such a form in his writings. Isn't this an example of the infinitive in Macedonian?