Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

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  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    #46
    Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
    That's not true. All Indo-European languages were heavily suffixed. Slavic and Baltic languages are still so. It was a common stage in their development, not a thing in Latin specifically.
    The preference over articles/prefixes to suffixes or vice versa cant be a stage in the development of languages. It`s one of the main characters which defines the family of languages. So, people usually doesn't give up using suffixes and start to use articles/prefixes. It stays as it is and develops according to it. If a switch between article/prefix and suffix occurs(this is an extreme case in the world of linguistics), then this is sign of heavy interaction and possibly a fusion of two different language in one stage of it`s history.

    As far as i know Latin has more suffixes than other IE languages. At least i am sure about English and French. Also, i am talking about heavy suffix usage in terms of IE family of languages since IE system is based on prefixes and article usage. If you wanna see what is the real heavy suffix usage, you can see that in Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish etc.


    Also, you could at least google about Etruscan influence in Roman before saying ""no"!.

    Comment

    • Delodephius
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 736

      #47
      Yes, I know about Turkic and Uralic languages, but these are less suffixed than Slavic or Baltic languages (Macedonian and Bulgarian not included) or such old languages like Sanskrit or Avestan.

      Only some modern IE languages use prefix/article type grammar, mostly Western European and Indo-Iranian. Old IE languages plus modern Slavic and Baltic languages were heavily suffixed (inflected is a better term). Old English, Old Norse, Gothic, Ancient Greek, Latin, Avestan, Old Persian, Sanskrit, Pali, Hittite, Tocharian, Old Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, etc. these were all heavily inflected languages. Didn't you know that? The switch to prefix/article grammar is quite common in linguistics.
      Last edited by Delodephius; 03-14-2011, 02:46 PM.
      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
      This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

      Comment

      • Delodephius
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 736

        #48
        SoM, I have started making a table of all nominal case endings in all IE languages. Once I'm done I'll convert it into a PDF file and post it here. I don't know how long it will take, but I already see many similarities between different languages. For example, the case endings in neuter are almost the same in OCS and Sanskrit.
        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
        This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13675

          #49
          Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
          SoM, I have started making a table of all nominal case endings in all IE languages. Once I'm done I'll convert it into a PDF file and post it here. I don't know how long it will take, but I already see many similarities between different languages. For example, the case endings in neuter are almost the same in OCS and Sanskrit.
          That would be good reference material Slovak, I look forward to it. I have been looking into Macedonian case endings over the last few weeks and how they have been replaced by the definitive article suffix, here is what I have compiled so far - let me know if there are any which are incorrect:

          Nominative Case (names) - Branko, Petar, Andon, etc, they can either end in a vowel or consonant

          Vocative Case (brat) - Bratu, Brate, Bato, Bate, Batka, Batko, Bratko, Bratchko

          Locative Case (city) - Vo Soluna Grada, Prilepa Grada, etc, these are more common in archaic speech or song but still used today, although in most cases it has been replaced by the literary standard with a definitive article suffix that has 3 positions, ie; Gradot/ov/on Prilep/Solun.

          Genitive Case (branko) - Kreni zname brankovo, Jordan Brankov (patronym and surname), Brankovo (village name), Ene go deteto na/od Branka**

          **The last example uses a preposition, and with nouns other than names the post-definitive article comes into place. Therefore, if we use the noun 'brat' instead of 'branko', it would be - Ene go deteto na brato(t). I have placed the 't' in brackets because many Macedonians drop this letter at the end of words with definitive article suffixes, which actually makes it sound closer to the cases which they replaced.

          Dative Case (friend, branko) - Kai prijatelo(t), prijatelo(v), prijatelo(n), all of which use the definitive article suffix instead of the dative case, but with a name for the noun, one could say Kai Branka.

          Accusative Case (jovan) - Go znam Jovana, bev so Jovana (?)

          Like I said, I am not sure they are all correct, if you spot anything that isn't, let me know.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            #50
            Well based on my knowledge of Old Slavonic I theorize that cases in Macedonian would be something like this:

            sg. masculine
            N. grad / Branko
            G. grada / Branka
            D. gradu / Branku
            A. grad / Branka
            L. gradje/grada* / Branku
            I. gradom / Brankom
            *(depending on the dialectical evolution of ě)

            pl.
            N. gradi
            G. grad/gradov
            D. gradom
            A. gradi
            V. gradi
            L. gradih/gradoh
            I. grad(a)mi

            sg. feminine
            N. žena
            G. žene
            D. ženi
            A. ženu
            V. ženo
            L. žene/žena
            I. ženom

            pl.
            N. žene
            G. žen(a)
            D. ženam
            A. žene
            V. žene
            L. ženah
            I. žen(a)mi
            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • Delodephius
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 736

              #51
              Here is an example of a full declination of the word 'yoke' in Sanskrit, Slavonic, Latin and Greek.

              Sanskrit - Slavonic - Latin - Greek
              sg.
              N,V,A yugam - iǐgo - iugum - ζυγόν
              G. yugasya - iǐga - iugī - ζυγοῦ
              D. yugāya - iǐgu - iugō - ζυγ
              Abl. yugāt - (iǐga) - iugā - /
              L. yuge - iǐg - (iugā) - /
              I. yugena - iǐgomǐ - (iugā) - /
              du.
              N,V,A. yuge - iǐg - / - ζυγώ
              G,L yugayoḥ - iǐgu - / - ζυγοῖν
              D,I,Abl. yugābhyām - iǐgoma - / - ζυγοῖν
              pl.
              N,V,A. yugā - iǐga - iuga - ζυγά
              G. yugānām - iǐgǔ - iugōrum - ζυγῶν
              D. yugebhyaḥ - iǐgomǔ - iugīs - ζυγοῖς
              Abl. yugebhyaḥ - (iǐgomǔ) - iugīs - /
              L. yugeṣu - iǐg - (iugīs) - /
              I. yugaiḥ - iǐgy - (iugīs) - /

              The forms in brackets are taken from other cases that have replaced the function of the previous case. For example, the function of Ablative has been absorbed by Genitive or Dative in Slavonic, or Locative and Instrumental by Ablative in Latin.
              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
              This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

              Comment

              • Imagination
                Junior Member
                • Feb 2011
                • 69

                #52
                Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                Here is an example of a full declination of the word 'yoke' in Sanskrit, Slavonic, Latin and Greek.

                Sanskrit - Slavonic - Latin - Greek
                sg.
                N,V,A yugam - iǐgo - iugum - ζυγόν
                G. yugasya - iǐga - iugī - ζυγοῦ
                D. yugāya - iǐgu - iugō - ζυγ
                Abl. yugāt - (iǐga) - iugā - /
                L. yuge - iǐg - (iugā) - /
                I. yugena - iǐgomǐ - (iugā) - /
                du.
                N,V,A. yuge - iǐg - / - ζυγώ
                G,L yugayoḥ - iǐgu - / - ζυγοῖν
                D,I,Abl. yugābhyām - iǐgoma - / - ζυγοῖν
                pl.
                N,V,A. yugā - iǐga - iuga - ζυγά
                G. yugānām - iǐgǔ - iugōrum - ζυγῶν
                D. yugebhyaḥ - iǐgomǔ - iugīs - ζυγοῖς
                Abl. yugebhyaḥ - (iǐgomǔ) - iugīs - /
                L. yugeṣu - iǐg - (iugīs) - /
                I. yugaiḥ - iǐgy - (iugīs) - /

                The forms in brackets are taken from other cases that have replaced the function of the previous case. For example, the function of Ablative has been absorbed by Genitive or Dative in Slavonic, or Locative and Instrumental by Ablative in Latin.
                Are you a philologist ? You sound like you've studied Slavic Philology.

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  #53
                  No, not really. I'm 23 and never went to college. I just learned all that on my own from books and the internet. It just takes effort and years of experience (I started when I was 15). However, people who actually studied linguistics at a university know a lot more than I do. In fact, my knowledge is very modest.
                  Last edited by Delodephius; 03-16-2011, 01:37 PM.
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                    Well based on my knowledge of Old Slavonic I theorize that cases in Macedonian would be something like this:

                    sg. masculine
                    N. grad / Branko
                    G. grada / Branka
                    D. gradu / Branku
                    A. grad / Branka
                    L. gradje/grada* / Branku
                    I. gradom / Brankom
                    *(depending on the dialectical evolution of ě)

                    pl.
                    N. gradi
                    G. grad/gradov
                    D. gradom
                    A. gradi
                    V. gradi
                    L. gradih/gradoh
                    I. grad(a)mi
                    Had Macedonian not lost certain of its cases, your examples above would probably have been the way Macedonian would sound today.

                    On those examples, I can tell you that the only time mod. Macedonian would use 'u' for a case ending would be for nouns other than names of people. There is no Branku, Petru or Ristu in mod. Macedonian, for example, but there is Bogu, Mau and Bratu - and all are in the vocative case, ie; when addressing somebody directly.

                    On the word sing. and pl. of the name Branko, wouldn't it be Branka/Brankov and Brankovi respectively? You didn't list an example for that name, but I noticed that you wrote Gradov for genitive pl. - shouldn't it be Gradovi?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Delodephius
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 736

                      #55
                      I also forgot sg. V. which should be grade / Branko. I didn't list plural for personal names because these depend on the number used. For example, it would be dva, tri, četiri Branka, pet, etc. Brankov.
                      Gradov is correct in G.pl. because -ovi is true only for only some words in N.pl. not G., like vol-volovi, sin-sinovi. Even these would be -ov in G.: volov, sinov. These are mainly words of the ǔ-declension, unlike grad which is of the ǒ-declension. I'll post the comparative table of IE case ending soon. It's almost done but I'm still having some doubts about certain cases. Even when I'm done it'll go through changes later no doubt.
                      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                      This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Slovak
                        Gradov is correct in G.pl. because -ovi is true only for only some words in N.pl. not G., like vol-volovi, sin-sinovi.
                        In Macedonian, if it is in nominative it is vol (sing.) and volovi (pl.). In genitive, as if the word 'vol' was used as a patronym/surname, it would be volov for both sing. and pl., for example, one could say 'Risto i Petar Volov' - however, one could also say 'volovi' or 'volovci' to denote pl. genitive, just like 'miladinovi' or 'miladinovci'. Does that sound right, or not?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Delodephius
                          Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 736

                          #57
                          Actually I mentioned this in one of my previous posts, that suffix -ov evolved from the G. case of a noun into a possessive adjective. The suffix -ov in G. nouns has little to do today with surnames. Suffix -ov is then declined according to the adjective declination, which is different.

                          Indefinite adjective - Definite adjective
                          sg.
                          N. volov - volovi
                          G. volova - volovoga
                          D. volovu - volovumu
                          A. volov - volovi
                          L. volove - volovem
                          I. volovom - volovijim
                          du.
                          N,A volovi - volovaja
                          G,L volovu - volovuju
                          D,I volovoma - voloviijima
                          pl.
                          N. volovi - voloviji
                          G. volov - volovijih
                          D. volovom - volovijim
                          A. volovi - volovije
                          L. voloveh - volovijih
                          I. volovi - volovijim

                          So you see, it gets a bit more complicated. :-D
                          अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                          उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                          This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                          But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                          Comment

                          • Delodephius
                            Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 736

                            #58
                            Here are the first two complete tables comparing Slavonic (OCS) and other Indo-European case endings ("suffixes"). The first one is of the declination of masculine nouns of the o-stem (evolved into both o- or a-stems). The second table is of the conjugation of the active present indicative verbs. I have not yet finished the other tables, which include the i-, u-, a-, n- and consonantal stems, as well as three other verbal tables.





                            I hope this proves to Onur and the like that all Indo-European languages were once heavily "suffixed". I can only assume he thought otherwise because he only though of modern Indo-European languages, which as we all know have lost most of their "suffixes" in the last 1500 years, with the exception of Slavic and Baltic languages.

                            In the first table some IE languages are missing, like Old Irish and Tocharian, because these already lost some of their cases. Tocharian has only three and Old Irish ones are not that different from one another. However, verbal system has remained largely unchained.
                            Last edited by Delodephius; 03-17-2011, 09:14 AM.
                            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                            This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              #59
                              Thanks Slovak, keep them coming, these tables are great and will provide valuable reference material for further discussions. The only thing I would suggest, when you get a chance, is to create a table of PIE -> PBSl. -> PSl. -> Comm.Sl., as this can help in identifying some of the changes that took place as Paleo-Balkan languages evolved from the beginning until their eventually amalgamation with Common Slavic.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Delodephius
                                Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 736

                                #60
                                No problem. I have a few books that explain the evolution of Slavic phonology and morphology. I'll look into it.
                                अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                                उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                                This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                                But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                                Comment

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