Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    Good point Slovak, I was actually looking into it a couple of weeks ago but never got around to summarising it. You're right, they do have a number of inscriptions (most, if not all from Anatolia). We should probably re-visit the Thracian ring inscription too. I will work on something in the next few hours and post it up.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13675

      Here is something with regard to the Illyrian name Vesclevesis.


      ves- (kind, good) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *wesu- (good, kind)
      cleves- (famous) (in Vesclevesis - a personal name) *kleu- (to hear, to listen)
      The second component of the word is clearly related to the satemised words in our languages like 'slovo' (to speak), 'slava' (fame, glory), 'slusha' (to hear), etc. What I found interesting is that a similar name is still used by some, such as the Czech Vaclav, which is supposed to mean 'wreath of glory' or something to that effect. So when compared:

      Vesclev(esis) - Illyrian
      Vaclav - Czech
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13675

        The below was taken from a book called 'Teach Yourself Sanskrit', Introduction, XVI. It was created with the assistance of scholars from both Oxford and Harvard. I cited it because of the previous comparison I made on post #87 with regard to the word for 'gold' in the different IE languages.
        Classical Sanskrit is based on a more easterly dialect of Old Indo-Aryan than is the Rigveda, as is shown by the fact that it contributes a number of words which preserve an original Indo-European L, where the Rigvedic dialect (in common with Iranian) changes this sound to R: thus both Vedic raghu 'swift, light' and Classical Sanskrit laghu 'light, nimble' are cognate with Greek elakhus.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13675

          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          Thus far I have not seen any attempt at explaining the Thracian tribal name maduateni which was mentioned by Livy. It must have some sort of meaning that is IE. The following is hypothetical but an interesting comparison nonetheless, and relevant to the topic. I would like to explore the possible connection between the words maduat(eni) and medved, which means 'bear' in most Slavic languages. It stems from the compound of two common Slavic words: medu (partitive singular case of med) meaning 'honey', and ed meaning 'eat'. I haven't come across a recorded Thracian word for 'honey', while a word for 'eat' is cited as esko, which is more akin to jesti in Slovenian. However, some of the characteristics identified in Thracian when comparing it to today's Macedonian and Slavic languages may provide a means for possible reconstruction, such as:
          • the use of the vowel u instead of v (taru instead of drvo, so proposed maduat instead of medved), which is akin to the earlier Slavic medued evolving into medved
          • the use of the vowel a instead of e (bal instead of bel, so proposed maduat instead of medved, and ad instead of ed)
          • the common (but not exclusive) use of devoiced consonant t from d (taru instead of drvo, so proposed maduat instead of medved)
          • the use of the eni suffix (maduateni instead of proposed medvedeni, which translates into 'bear-men' or 'bear-people' in today's Macedonian)

          The words developed from Proto Indo-European as follows:

          PIE mdhu - Slavic med
          PIE bhel - Slavic bel, byal - Thracian bal
          PIE ed - Slavic jed, jad - Sanskrit** tti

          **I cited Sanskrit because it also uses the devoiced consonant t, and shares important similarities with Balto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages.

          One may argue that we cannot speculate in the absence of a cited Thracian word, particularly given that the construct of this word is exclusive to Balto-Slavic languages (I include Baltic in this case because a word for bear in Lithuanian is meška, strikingly similar to Macedonian mechka, ultimately deriving from medved) but that would only be relevant to those that cannot accept a commonality between the Balto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkan languages. Furthermore, an example has already been show where an assumed Slavic construct of a word (zemlja 'earth' evolving to zmija 'snake' and zmei 'dragon', compare that to semela in Thracian or zemela in Phrygian evolving to zuml 'dragon') may likely have a parallel in Thracian.
          Just a follow up to the above suggestion about the tribal name of 'maduat(eni)' and the possible relation to the word 'medved'. If we use both components of the word with Sanskrit equivalents, it looks almost identical:

          - ed (PIE) -> atti (SKR), at (THR)
          - mdhu (PIE) -> madhu (SKR), madu (THR)

          Sanskrit: madhuatti
          Thracian: maduat

          There is one thing that may or may not pose an issue, and that is the case ending for the word 'medu', which developed into 'medv(ed)'. It is said to be a Slavic partitive (sg.) case, and this case ending apparently originated from the ablative case. The same word in the ablative case for Sanskrit is described in the below comparison table; however, this may just mean that the Slavic and Thracian case endings (in this instance) are more similar to each other than they are to the one in Sanskrit.



          What are your thoughts on the above Slovak?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            The below was taken from a book called 'Teach Yourself Sanskrit', Introduction, XVI. It was created with the assistance of scholars from both Oxford and Harvard. I cited it because of the previous comparison I made on post #87 with regard to the word for 'gold' in the different IE languages.
            The name of the prophet Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) means "Golden camel", from zarath - gold, and uṣṭra - camel. The consonant R in zarath seems to have previously been L > zalath, cognate to Proto-Slavic zalto - gold.
            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • Delodephius
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 736

              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Just a follow up to the above suggestion about the tribal name of 'maduat(eni)' and the possible relation to the word 'medved'. If we use both components of the word with Sanskrit equivalents, it looks almost identical:

              - ed (PIE) -> atti (SKR), at (THR)
              - mdhu (PIE) -> madhu (SKR), madu (THR)

              Sanskrit: madhuatti
              Thracian: maduat

              There is one thing that may or may not pose an issue, and that is the case ending for the word 'medu', which developed into 'medv(ed)'. It is said to be a Slavic partitive (sg.) case, and this case ending apparently originated from the ablative case. The same word in the ablative case for Sanskrit is described in the below comparison table; however, this may just mean that the Slavic and Thracian case endings (in this instance) are more similar to each other than they are to the one in Sanskrit.



              What are your thoughts on the above Slovak?
              Sound theory SoM. I think we can add maduat to the list of the deciphered Thracian words, as well as its components madu - honey and ati - to eat. Furthermore, I think you are getting a better and better grasp of the declination system and how it works. I congratulate you on your effort.
              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
              This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                Thanks mate, good to hear you're in agreement with respect to the 'maduateni', because the similarities were just too much to ignore. Regarding the declination system, I have corrected many of my misconceptions, and although I still have more to learn, I have come a long way in terms of understanding how it works. To be honest, much of it I owe to your (constructive) criticism during previous discussions.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  This I copied from a book called "Grammar of Modern Indo-European". I would take the reconstructions with a grain of salt, but it is still quite interesting to see how some linguists reconstructed the IE languages. Unfortunately the book does not cite references.

                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  The so-called Schleicher's fable is a poem composed in the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European language, published by August Schleicher in 1868, originally named - The Sheep and the Horses‖. It is written here to show the evolution of PIE from its first reconstructable stages until the latest IE proto-languages known.

                  1. English
                  2. Late PIE, 3.000 BC
                  3. Proto-Anatolian, 2.500 BC
                  4. European PIE, 2.500 BC
                  5. Proto-Indo-Iranian, 2.000 BC
                  6. Proto-Greek, 2.000 BC
                  7. Proto-Tocharian, 1.000 BC
                  8. Proto-Celtic, 1.000 BC
                  9. Proto-Italic, 1.000 BC
                  10. Proto-Germanic, 500 BC
                  11. Proto-Slavic, 1 AD
                  12. Proto-Baltic, 1 AD
                  13. Proto-Armenian, 1 AD


                  1. The Sheep and the Horses
                  2. Xowis ʔkwōs-qe.
                  3. Hwis swes-ki.
                  4. Owis ekwōs-qe.
                  5. vis vās-ka.
                  6. wis kwoi-qe.
                  7. wi jkwe-ke.
                  8. wis qoi-k(h)e.
                  9. wis kwoi-qe.
                  10. wiz khwaz-ukh.
                  11. vĭs svŭ-če.
                  12. vis vai-ke.
                  13. Hvih ēwuh-kh.

                  1. A sheep that had no wool
                  2. Χowis, qesjo wlʔneħ ne ʔest,
                  3. Hwis, kuis hlana na est,
                  4. Owis, qesio wḹnā ne est,
                  5. vis, kahja vṛnā na āst,
                  6. wis, qho lānā ne ēst,
                  7. wi, kse wlānā ne es,
                  8. wis, qsjo wlənā ne est,
                  9. wis, qsjo lāna ne est,
                  10. wiz, khwes wlnō ne ist,
                  11. vĭs, čso vlĭna ne jzĭt,
                  12. vis, kso vlno ne at,
                  13. Hvih, khhjo glana ne ēs(th),

                  1. saw horses,
                  2. ʔkwoms spekt,
                  3. swus spekt,
                  4. ekwoms spekt,
                  5. vans spat,
                  6. kwos spekt,
                  7. jkwes śpkt,
                  8. qos skhekt,
                  9. kwos spekt,
                  10. khwanz spekht,
                  11. sva spest,
                  12. vus spekt,
                  13. ēwoh sphekhe(th),

                  1. one pulling a heavy wagon,
                  2. ʔinom cṛχum wghom wghontṃ,
                  3. ānan wurhn wgan wganzam,
                  4. oinom carm woghom wghontṃ,
                  5. inam garm vgham vghantam,
                  6. non barn wkhon wkhont,
                  7. nem karm wkṃ wkantm,
                  8. inom barm wokhom wkhontam,
                  9. oinom craum wokhom wekhontem,
                  10. inan karn wgan wganthun,
                  11. nŭ arŭ vzŭ vztẽ,
                  12. inam ģarũ vam vantim,
                  13. nam erkm wĵ wĵon,

                  1. one carrying a big load,
                  2. ʔinom-qe mgeħm bhrom,
                  3. ānan-ki mkan bran,
                  4. oinom-qe megām bhorom,
                  5. inam-ka mgham bhram,
                  6. non-qe mgān phron,
                  7. nem-ke mkām parm,
                  8. inom-k(h)e məgam brom,
                  9. oinom-qe məĵam phrom,
                  10. inan-ukh mkon bran,
                  11. nŭ-če ma brŭ,
                  12. inam-ke mģam bram,
                  13. nam-kh mk br,

                  1. and one carrying a man quickly.
                  2. ʔinom-qe dhʔghmnṃ ʔoʔku bhrontṃ.
                  3. ānan-ki teggnam aku branzam.
                  4. oinom-qe dhghmonṃ ōk bhrontṃ.
                  5. inam-ka ghmanam āu bhrantam.
                  6. non-qe khthnon ōku phront.
                  7. nem-ke tkmnam āk prantm.
                  8. inom-k(h)e d(okh)oniom ōku brontam.
                  9. oinom-qe khmonem ōku pherontem.
                  10. inan-ukh gmanan ākhu branthun.
                  11. nŭ-če mnŭ asŭ brtẽ.
                  12. inam-ke zmnam uoku brantim.
                  13. nam-kh zmn uu bron.

                  1. The sheep said to the horses:
                  2. Xowis nu ʔkwobhjos wewqt:
                  3. Hwis nu swaz hwewkt:
                  4. Owis nu kwobhos wewqt:
                  5. vis nu vabhjas vaukat:
                  6. wis nu kwobos weweqet:
                  7. Owi n jkwebos wwkt:
                  8. wis nu qobos wewqt:
                  9. wis nu kwobhos wewqt:
                  10. wiz nu khwamaz wewkhth:
                  11. vĭs nŭ svomŭ vjučt:
                  12. vis nu vamas vjaukt:
                  13. Hvih nu ēwoboh gojkhe(th):

                  1. My heart pains me,
                  2. Kṛd ħghnutoi ʔmo,
                  3. Kart knuta(ri) mai,
                  4. Kṛd ghnutoi mo,
                  5. Ghṛd ghnutai mai,
                  6. Kard khnutoi moi,
                  7. Krt gntai me,
                  8. Krid gnutor mai,
                  9. Kord khnutor mei,
                  10. Hurt gnuthai mai,
                  11. Srĭd znutĕ mĕ,
                  12. ird gnutai mai,
                  13. Sart gnuthe me,

                  1. seeing a man driving horses.
                  2. ʔkwoms ħgontṃ wʔrom wdṇtei.
                  3. swus kantun wran wtanzi.
                  4. ekwoms gontṃ wīrom wdṇtei.
                  5. vans aĵantam vīram vdanti.
                  6. kwos gont wron wdtei.
                  7. jkwes ākantn wrem wtsante.
                  8. qos gontom wrom wdanti.
                  9. kwos gontom wīrom wdentei.
                  10. khwanz kanthun weran wtanthī.
                  11. svŭ gtŭ vrŭ vdẽti.
                  12. vai gantim vram vdintei.
                  13. ēwuh konth gr gtanthi.

                  1. The horses said: Listen, sheep,
                  2. ʔkwōs tu wewqnt: Kludh, χwi!
                  3. swes tu wewknz: Klut, hwi!
                  4. Ekwōs tu wewqnt: Kludh, owi!
                  5. vās tu vaukant: Srudh vi!
                  6. kwoi tu weweqont: Kluth, wi!
                  7. Jkwe t wwkant: Klut, ow!
                  8. qoi tu wewqnt: Klud, wi!
                  9. kwoi tu wewqnt: Kluth, wi!
                  10. khwaz wwkhant: Khlud, wi!
                  11. sva tu vjčt: Sludĭ, ve!
                  12. vus tu vjukant: lud, vi!
                  13. Ēwoh thu gojkh: Lud, hvi!

                  1. our hearts pain us when we see this:
                  2. kṛd ħghnutoi ṇsmi wdṇtbhjos:
                  3. kart knuta(ri) anzs wtantaz:
                  4. kṛd ghnutoi ṇsmi wdṇtbhos:
                  5. ghṛd ghnutai asmi vdantbhjas:
                  6. kart gnutoi ahm wdtbios:
                  7. krt āknete nsme wtntbe:
                  8. krid gnutor ansmi wdantbjos:
                  9. kord akhnutor ensmi wdentbhos:
                  10. khurt knuthai nsmi wtunthmaz:
                  11. srĭd znutĕ ẽsm vdẽtmŭ:
                  12. ird gnutai insmi vdintmas:
                  13. sart gnuthoi asm gtan(th)bos:

                  1. a man, the master, makes the wool of the sheep
                  2. ħner, ptis, χowjom-ṛ wḷʔneħṃ
                  3. anr, ptis, hwjan-ar hlanan
                  4. ner, potis, owjom-ṛ wḹnām
                  5. nar, ptis, vjam-ṛ vṛnām
                  6. anr, ptsis, wjon-ar lānān
                  7. nr, pats, wjāp-r wlānām
                  8. ner, phtis, wjom-ri wlənām
                  9. ner, ptis, wjom-or lānam
                  10. ner, phthiz, wjan-aur wlnōn
                  11. ner, pdĭs, vjemĭ-rĭ vlĭn
                  12. ner, pats, vjam-ir vlnom
                  13. a(n)r, phthis, wj-ar glanam

                  1. into a warm garment for himself.
                  2. swbhi chermm wstrom qṛnuti.
                  3. sfbi wermn wstran kurnti.
                  4. sebhi chermm westrom qṛneuti.
                  5. svbhi gharmm vstram kṛnuti.
                  6. sephi thermn wstron qernuti.
                  7. spi srmam wstram krniti.
                  8. sbi germm wstrom qrunuti.
                  9. sbhi ghwermm wstrom qornuti.
                  10. sbi wrman wst(h)ran khwurnuthi.
                  11. sĕbi germŭ vstrŭ črĭnjutĭ.
                  12. bi garmm vstram kirnjuti.
                  13. (k)bi ĵerm gsthr kharnjthi.

                  1. And the sheep has no wool.
                  2. Xowjom-qe wḷhneħ ne ʔsti.
                  3. Hwjan-ki hlana ne szi.
                  4. Owjom-qe wḹnā ne esti.
                  5. vjam-ka vṛnā na sti.
                  6. wjon-qe lānā ne sti.
                  7. Owjāp-ke wlānā n sti.
                  8. wjom-k(h)e wlanā ne sti.
                  9. wjom-qe lāna ne sti.
                  10. wjan-ukh wlnō ne sti.
                  11. vjemĭ-če vlĭna ne jzĭtĭ.
                  12. vjam-ke vlno ne ti.
                  13. Hvj-kh glana ne sthi.

                  1. Having heard this, the sheep fled into the plain.
                  2. Tod kkluwos χowis ħgrom bhugt.
                  3. Tat kkluwas hwis gran pugt.
                  4. Tod kkluwos owis agrom bhugt.
                  5. Tat ssruvas vis ĵram bhugat.
                  6. Tot kkluwos wis gron phuget.
                  7. T kklewe wi ākre bekt.
                  8. Tod kluwos wis grom bugt.
                  9. Tud kkluwos wis grom phugt.
                  10. That khkhluwaz wiz kran bukth.
                  11. To ssluvŭ vĭs grŭ bugĭt.
                  12. Ta luvas vis gram bugt.
                  13. Da khkhlugah hvih kr buke(th).
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) elses (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    The Phrygians were originally called Brygians, and their equivalent for Zeus is recorded as Bagaois, related to 'bog' in Slavic languages and 'bhag' in Indo-Iranian languages. Here is a link to where decipherments have been attempted with regard to the Phrygian language:



                    BABA: MEM EFAIS: PROITA FOST TIPA NA EPOS: SKENEM AM: EL AES



                    [Translation: Papa (Attis, also called Papas, husband of Cybele, Mater) of the breast, mammary? (L. mamma-ae; It. mammella; Fr. mamelle); alternatively, to the mother (It. mamma)? or the self, same (Fr. mme) he spoke out (L. effor-fari; Etr. EFA, EFAN, EFAS, EFE): therefore, consequently (L. proinde and proin) of the stock, trunk, shaft (L. fossa-ae; It. fusto; Fr. fut; Sanskrit, yasti; stick, club, L. fustis-is, Etr. 8VST) of the model, figure on a wall, type (L. typus-i; It. tipo; Fr. type; Gr. typos, Polish, typ; Etr. TIPE, TIPES) indeed, truly (L. ne [nae]; Etr. NA) of the epic poem (L. epos): Skenem? (re: L. scio, scire, to know, understand; Etr. SCIS) I love, like (L. amo-are; Etr. AM, AMA, AMaPa, AMaPEN, AMAR, AME, AMEM, AMI, AMIE, AMO): the olives? (Gr. elaia) or alternatively, her (L. eius, illius; It. ella; Fr. elle, elles) bronze, metal (L. aes, aeris)] Note: See XE-12, E LAES in the context suggesting, "from Laius."
                    Phrygian phonology:

                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13675

                      Originally posted by Delodephius
                      This I copied from a book called "Grammar of Modern Indo-European". I would take the reconstructions with a grain of salt, but it is still quite interesting to see how some linguists reconstructed the IE languages.
                      The reconstruction is definetly way off, but for what they knew back then compared to what is known now, I suppose they can be forgiven. It is interesting to take the below into consideration, which is the previous comparison for the word 'gold':
                      aurum (Latin)
                      aur (Romanian)
                      ar (Albanian)
                      oro (Italian)
                      r (Irish-Celtic)

                      zar (Old Iranian)

                      salta (Thracian)
                      zalto (Proto-Slavic)
                      zelts (Latvian)
                      zlato (Macedonian)

                      gold (German)
                      guld (Dannish)
                      gull (Norwegian)
                      It would seem that the Balto-Slavic-Balkan, Indo-Iranian and Germanic proto languages once formed a common group before Germanic split and became a Centum language. It may also explain why Germanic shares some cognates with Thracian, in addition to the more obvious (and numerous) cognates it shares with Balto-Slavic. It would also support the assertion that Italic and Celtic languages belonged to a common group. Although it is a suggestion based on one example, many more can be found.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        The town Edirne (Maced. Odrin) derives its name from the Roman Emperor Hadrian (by way of Hadrianopolis, Engl. Adrianople). It is located at the confluence of three rivers, one of which is the historically significant Marica. The original name of the town was Uskudama and comes from the Thracian words for 'water' (usku) and 'settlement' (dama) - the second word already having been discussed in a previous example on this thread (see 'damastini'). It has been suggested that the first component of the word developed as follows:



                        PIE wed - Thracian ud -> udsko -> utsko -> usko - ultimately usku, probably with case ending u instead of o.

                        There appears to be a parallel in the Celtic word usce, which means the same. Also interesting, however, is the sk ending of the word, which resembles that of nouns in Slavic languages. Here are some possible Slavic comparisons:

                        Udsku-dama (Thracian)
                        Vodsku-dom (Slavic)
                        Vodskov-dom (Slavic)
                        Vodski-dom (Slavic)

                        The town of Uskudama became popularised by the name of Odrysia, which was a Greek rendition based on the Thracian tribal name that probably sounded more like Udrusi. The latter, in turn, derived from the Thracian word for an 'otter', which is a water animal, see comparison below:

                        Udro (PIE)
                        Udra (Thracian)
                        Ūdra (Baltic)
                        Vidra (Slavic)

                        Another Thracian tribal name was Bebrykes, and is also based on a type of animal, a 'beaver', see below comparison:

                        Bhebhrus (PIE)
                        Bebrus (Thracian)
                        Bebrus (Baltic)
                        Bebr (Slavic)

                        After palatalisation, the k at the end of the word could develop as Bebryk -> Bebrych -> Bebrytsi. A significant observation that can be made from all of the above is that there appears to be a trend among the Thracians in which they use the name of an animal to designate a tribal name. This lends further weight to the possibility regarding the Maduateni. After Slavic became the dominant linguistic branch in the Balkans and absorbed the related Paleo-Balkan languages, some words were replaced while some were retained in slightly altered forms.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13675

                          Another Thracian tribal name is the Drugeri, without a doubt related to Slavic Drugari, which can mean friends or companions.

                          Nobody has brought to attention the similarity of the Thracian and Old Slavic pantheon. In my opinion, Thracian Perkun corresponds to Slavic Perun, Thracian Seitovins to Slavic Sventovit, Thracian Ares to Slavic Jarovit, Thracian Balenos to Slavic Belen, Thracian Kerilos to Slavic Černobog, Thracian Zemi
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13675

                            Slovak,

                            These are the texts we've discussed in the past. Below are the two longest inscriptions that have survived in the Thracian language. The first is the golden ring from around the Plovdiv area, whereas the second is from the Preslav area, so it is probable that there is some dialectal differences.



                            Here is some further information on them:




                            I have put them all in capital (Latin) letters in the below for easier comparison:

                            First:
                            ROLISTENEASNERENEATILTEANISKOARAZEADOMEANTILEZYPTAMIIERAZILTA

                            Second:
                            EBAR. ZESASNINETESAIGEK. A NBLABAIGN NYASNLETEDNYEDNEINDAKATR. S

                            There are some parts of both that appear common enough to possibly identify as words, such as ASN. For the purpose of clarification, this Thracian word means 'I, me', and developed as follows:

                            - eǵ’hom - Proto Indo-European
                            - eź’ham - Proto Balto-Slavic (and Paleo-Balkan)

                            The 'm' then changed to an 'n' at some point, so following on:

                            - jāzun - Proto Slavic (development of 'j' at the beginning of the word)
                            - asn - Thracian (devoiced z -> s, which seems to be common in some Thracian words)

                            Eventually, the 'n' was also dropped at the end of the word, so the surviving literary examples would thus be:

                            - jaz - Slovenian
                            - jas - Macedonian
                            - ja - Macedonian and other
                            - az - Macedonian and other
                            - aš - Lithuanian
                            - es - Latvian
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              Here is a short text in Thracian, but I don't have a picture of the inscription so not sure how (if at all) the words have been broken down.



                              likes : braterais patrizi isk.
                              Undeciphered (Mysian), though the words braterais 'by the brothers' and patrizi 'to the fathers' are present.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13675

                                Here is some information regarding the Thracian ring inscription:
                                In the same neighbouhood besides the ring there were found other items belonging to a burial a golden diadem, a small golden spoon, two triangular golden plates, a broken bronze vessel, a round bronze mirror and a broken bronze bracelet. It was obvious that the golden ring belonged to the burial of a noble Thracian. The reading of the letters poses no difficulties but division of the text into words is uncertain. Up to now there appeared more than 20 translations of this text [See D. Detschew, Die thrakischen Sprachreste, Wien, 1957, pp. 567-582], none of them being commonly accepted. Here we list the interpretations of the Buglarians academicians D. Dechev and Vl. Georgiev.

                                D. Dechev proposed the following reading:

                                Text: Rolisteneas Nerenea tiltean esko Arazea domean Tilezupta mie erazilta
                                Translation: I am Rolesteneas, a descendant of Nereneas. Tilezipta, an Arazian woman,
                                delivered me to the ground (i.e. buried me).

                                Vl. Georgiev also thought that the ring was specially made for a solemn (three-days long) exposure of the deceased before he was buried. He also utilized the Herodotus account that some Thracian tribes had the custom when some noble Thracian dies, to bury with him one of his favourite wives. He proposed the following reading:

                                Text: Rolistene, as Nerenea Tiltea nesko arazea do mean tilezyptam, ie eraz elta
                                Translation: Rolistene (=You, Rolisten), I, Nerenea Tiltea, die peaceful next to [you] my dear deceased,
                                [I] who nourished (brough up) the children.
                                Here is one example of how the words may be broken down:

                                ROLISTENE ASN, ERENEA TI, LTEA NISKO A RAZ EA DOME ANTI, LEZY, PTAMI IE RAZ I LTA
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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