Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Risto the Great]

Onur, you are a true ambassador for Turkey.
You should be a foreign diplomat on behalf of Turkey.

We cannot forget the oppression Macedonians endured in Ottoman times, but personally have no desire to blame this on the modern Turks.

[TrueMacedonian]

Onur said;

This is true because Turks never aimed to convert people to Islam or forced everyone to accept Turkish identity. Ottoman Empire was always multi-cultural state since the 1st day of its foundation. It was never a pure Turkish state for Turks only. If it would be like that, Turks could easily assimilate and convert everyone in whole Balkans as muslims and Turks in 600 years. If Greeks did this in 100 years, why Turks wouldn't in 600 years with all that richness and nearly unbeatable power??? because Turks never wanted to do that.

Onur I am happy that you are on here and posting. Mark Mazower stated in his book "The Balkans" that the christians were taxed more than the muslims and that the christians actually asked to be converted to Islam (in some and many cases of course) so as not to pay more taxes. Of course the Ottoman authorities would not allow this to happen all the time seeing as they had a kingdom to run. But I do think that there were cases when forced conversions were applied. Of course this was through the Devirshme and from what I read somewhere during times of war when troops were needed to go into battle christians were forced to convert and to go off to fight.

[Spartan]

What are you talking about TM??
The Turkish occupation of our lands was like the kingdom of heaven descending upon our peoples, where every man was equal, and free of any persecution whatsoever.
When the Ottoman came, the earth brought forth flowers for their feet to tred upon.
All the subjects lived in a bliss akin to the garden of Eden, where every man was free to prosper, and the lands were devoid of all hatred, and the ills that had plagued mankind.
Mothers happily gave their children away to be raised, and fight in defence of the Ottoman empire, i.e heaven on earth.

The thousands of pages of texts referring to the uprisings, and rebellions against ottoman oppression is propoganda created by the western powers in order to villify the Turk. In reality, the Turk was the best thing that ever happened to the Balkans, and all men at that time loved and adored their Muslim rulers.

Missing out on the rennaissance of Europe was a blessing that is evident beyond a doubt til this very day.

Kemal is the true messiah.

[Onur]

Onur, you are a true ambassador for Turkey.
You should be a foreign diplomat on behalf of Turkey.

We cannot forget the oppression Macedonians endured in Ottoman times, but personally have no desire to blame this on the modern Turks.

Ohh thanks RTG. I am just trying to explain the issues about Turkey because you know, there are a lot of misconception about us but neither of those are not that difficult to clarify. So, thats what i do.

You are right, when you try to communicate with someone or with some society, you shouldn't forget your past experience with them but also you should be fair by remembering the benefits and positive experiences as well as negative ones. The relation of two different society would be baseless and ungrounded if you don't take account of your past experiences, both good and bad.

Onur I am happy that you are on here and posting...

But I do think that there were cases when forced conversions were applied. Of course this was through the Devirshme and from what I read somewhere during times of war when troops were needed to go into battle christians were forced to convert and to go off to fight.

Thanks TrueMacedonian, i am happy to be here and read your posts as well, i mean all the forum members.

Yes, you are right. The exception on religious conversion was the Janissary squad. I gotta remind you tough, whole army of the Empire wasn't consisted with only Janissary. The Janissary was only an infantry squad of the army. There was other type of squads too, which consists with the Muslim Turks. Also the reason for their conversation wasn't because they were going to fight vs Christians. Ottoman Empire also fought vs Muslim states for a long time too like Persian-Turk Safavid dynasty, Arab-Turk Mamluks and other Arab states.



As far as we see from the notes and guide books from Empire era, the decision makers of the Empire thought that the conversion of Janissary squad to Islam was a necessity to achieve the unity with the other squads of the army. They thought that if there would be religious difference between them, they would never think and act like one force. Also one more thing; They were thinking that a Christian would never fight to death for the Sultan and for his Empire. That was their conception at the medieval times. Ofc this conception has changed after the abolish of Janissary squad at 1830s. After that, the empire started to accept Christian citizens to the new army.

What are you talking about TM??
The Turkish occupation of our lands was like the kingdom of heaven descending upon our peoples, where every man was equal, and free of any persecution whatsoever....

Kemal is the true messiah.

Neither TM nor me ever spoke like that, so don't try to pull us to your ground. What you wanna prove with this while we are discussing religious conversion issue? Dont forget, if Turkish regime would be bad as you think, then you would be in Mecca now, praying to Allah and your forum nick would be "Muhammad" instead of Spartan. You have a doubt on this???


I will tell you just one thing Spartan. Nothing in the world consists black and white, there are shades of gray as well. If you cant see the gray then you are just narrow-minded fool.

[Spartan]

^^It was a joke Onur, of course there is gray.
When it comes to Turkey, it seems you only see the white.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice?

[Onur]

^^It was a joke Onur, of course there is gray.
When it comes to Turkey, it seems you only see the white.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice?

Do i see only whites while agreeing with RTG to not forget the negative past with Turkish regime???

Read my post again. I see that you cant see gray but its black font on white background, so even you should be able to comprehend!!!

[Spartan]

^^Yes yes, i comprehend what you are saying.

You are right, when you try to communicate with someone or with some society, you shouldn't forget your past experience with them but also you should be fair by remembering the benefits and positive experiences as well as negative ones. The relation of two different society would be baseless and ungrounded if you don't take account of your past experiences, both good and bad.

If possible, could you explain the good(benefits/positive experiences) the Ottoman occupation had on the Balkans?
What are your thoughts on the European rennaissance, and age of knowledge/enlightenment?

[Spartan]

Dont forget, if Turkish regime would be bad as you think, then you would be in Mecca now, praying to Allah and your forum nick would be "Muhammad" instead of Spartan. You have a doubt on this???

I do
Firstly, if you are referring to me in reards to mecca....How can you convert a people that you never fully conquered?
Secondly, people throughout the Balkans shed blood on the battlefields...thats why they/we arent praying to allah in Mecca (other than some easily converted wweaklings)....not because of how 'not bad' the Otttoman was.

My opinion

[Onur]

I do
How can you convert a people that you never fully conquered?
Secondly, people throughout the Balkans shed blood on the battlefields...thats why they/we arent praying to allah in Mecca (other than some easily converted wweaklings)....not because of how 'not bad' the Otttoman was.

My opinion

So, you are basically saying that Greece was able to convert Albanians, Turks, Macedonians etc. as true descendants of Achilles and Homer in 80 years but the Turks couldn't do that in 600 years even if they wanted to, because they were so weak and Turks didn't even fully conquered Balkans!!!


Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new era of Greek evolution and Spartan`s "amazing" statements!

How can you convert a people that you never fully conquered?

Man, i demand new "smiley face icon" to respond this sentence. None of them was enough




Go ahead my friend, enlighten us with your supreme mind


P. S: I fear that in your next message, you might say that the Byzantine Empire never collapsed and it was the Greeks who reigned in all Balkans with the help of Zeus from Mount Olympus.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What blood did Greeks shed before 1821? Your people were practically in bed with the Ottomans from day one, doing everything they can to supress the other Christians, even after the creation of the Greek state. This is the reason why Greek-speakers retained a 'special' status in the Ottoman Empire, as the 'leaders' of the Rum Millet, milking their co-religionists of their identity, wealth and culture. Oh, that's right, lest I forget, those were not 'your' kinsmen because they weren't from the base of Taygetus, I can see the value of your fluidity in such assertions.

[Spartan]

So, you are basically saying that Greece was able to convert Albanians, Turks, Macedonians etc. as true descendants of Achilles and Homer in 80 years but the Turks couldn't do that in 600 years even if they wanted to, because they were so weak and Turks didn't even fully conquered Balkans!!!

No, thats not what im saying.

I fear that in your next message, you might say that the Byzantine Empire never collapsed and it was the Greeks who reigned in all Balkans with the help of Zeus from Mount Olympus.

I fear you are mistaken.

[Onur]

What blood did Greeks shed before 1821? Your people were practically in bed with the Ottomans from day one, doing everything they can to supress the other Christians, even after the creation of the Greek state. This is the reason why Greek-speakers retained a 'special' status in the Ottoman Empire, as the 'leaders' of the Rum Millet, milking their co-religionists of their identity, wealth and culture.

Thats true. There was only two religious leaders in the Empire, Armenians and Greeks. Armenian patriarch was only responsible with Armenians but Greek one was controlling every Christians in Balkans and Anatolia. For example, all books about Christianity was published in Istanbul by Greek patriarch.

There was no blood shed between 1453 to 1821 either and especially after French revolution at 1789, Greek patriarchy started to abuse their religious power given to them by the Turks to manipulate people`s mind.

[Bill77]

Make sure you double check your spelling and grammar onur, he will start looking for a reason to divert from your conversation. Its a get out of jail card for him

[Spartan]

What blood did Greeks shed before 1821?

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Zkg9AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA85&dq=maniots&as_brr=1&cd=3#v=onepage&q=maniots&f=false

http://books.google.ca/books?id=cpYFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA553&dq=ottomans+maniotes&lr=&as_brr=1&cd=9#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.ca/books?id=9D83AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA854&dq=ottomans+maniots&lr=&as_brr=1&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

15th century

Kladas, a Greek from Laconia, was granted lordship by Mehmet over Elos and Varvounia in 1461. Mehmet hoped that Kladas would defend Laconia from the Maniots.[22] During that time, Mani's population grew as a result of an influx of refugees who came from other areas of Greece.[23]β[›] In 1463, Kladas joined the Venetians in their ongoing war against the Ottomans. He led the Maniots against the Ottomans with Venetian aid until 1479, when the Venetians made peace with the Ottomans and gave the Ottomans the right to rule the Brazzo di Maina. Kladas refused to accept the conditions, and so the Venetians put a price on his head.[22]

After the end of the Turko-Venetian War, the Venetians left the Maniots to fend for themselves. Many of the Greeks who had revolted alongside the Venetians were massacred by the Ottomans, but many of them fled to find refuge in Mani. The Maniots continued to resist, and Mehmet sent an army of 2,000 infantry and 300 cavalry against Mani under the command of Ale Boumico.[24] The Venetians, trying to gain favor with the Porte, handed over some Maniot rebels. The Ottomans reached Oitylo before Kladas, and the Maniots attacked and massacred them. Only a few escaped; amongst them was Ale Boumico. Kladas invaded the Laconian plain with 14,000 Maniots and killed the Turkish inhabitants.[25]

A month later, a larger force under the command of Ahmed Bey invaded Mani and drove Kladas to Porto Kagio.[26] There, he was picked up by three galleys of King Ferdinand I of Naples.[26] To delay the Turks long enough for Kladas to escape, the Maniot rear guard attacked the Turkish army.[26] Kladas reached the Kingdom of Naples, whence he became a mercenary leader. He returned to Mani in 1490 and was killed in a battle at Monemvasia.[26]


16th century


From 1500 to 1570, Mani kept its autonomy without any invasion from the Ottomans.[25] The Ottomans were busy driving the Venetians out of the Peloponnese and succeeded in 1540, when they conquered Monemvasia and Nafplio. The Ottomans under Selim II, preparing to invade the Venetian island of Cyprus, built a fortress in Mani, at Porto Kagio, and they also garrisoned Passavas. The aim of this was to disrupt the Venetians' communication lines and to keep the Maniots at bay. Alarmed, the Maniots called upon Venetian assistance, and the Venetian navy in combination with the Maniot army captured the castle.[27]


17th century

The Maniots found a champion in 1612, Charles Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and Nevers. Charles was a descendant of the Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus through his grandmother, who was of the line of Theodore I of Montferrat, Andronicus' son.[29] Through this connection he claimed the throne of Constantinople. He began plotting with the Maniots, who addressed him as "King Constantine Palaeologus". When the Porte heard about this, they sent Arslan in command of an army of 20,000 men and 70 ships to invade Mani. He succeeded in ravaging Mani and imposing taxes on the Maniots (which they did not pay). This caused Nevers to move more actively for his crusade. Nevers sent envoys to the courts of Europe looking for support. In 1619, he recruited six ships and a number of men, but he was forced to abort the mission because of the beginning of the Thirty Years' War.[28][29] The idea of the crusade faded and Nevers died in 1637.[29]

In 1645, a new Turkish-Venetian War, the so-called "Cretan War" began, during which the Republic of Venice was attempting to defend Crete, one of their provinces since 1204, from the Ottoman Empire, initially under Ibrahim I. The Maniots supported the Venetians by offering them ships. In 1659, Admiral Francesco Morosini, with 13,000 Maniots as his allies, occupied Kalamata, a large city near Mani. In 1667, during the Siege of Candia, some Maniot pirate ships sneaked into the Ottoman fleet and managed to loot and burn some ships. However, Candia fell in 1669, and Crete became part of the Ottoman Empire.[28][29]γ[›]


Vathia, a typical Maniot village famous for its towers.With Crete captured, the Ottomans turned their attention to Mani. The Grand Vizier, Köprülü Fazıl Ahmet Pasha, sent the pirate Hasan Baba to subdue Mani. Baba arrived in Mani demanding that the Maniots surrender hostages, but instead he was answered with bullets. During the night, ten Maniots went and cut the hawsers of Hasan's ships. This caused some of Baba's ships to founder on some rocks, and the Maniots, taking advantage of the situation, attacked and killed the Turks and seized the ships. Baba managed to escape with only one ship.[30]


18th century

From Kastania, Hasan Ghazi advanced towards Skoutari and laid siege to the tower of the powerful Grigorakis clan. The tower contained fifteen men, who held out for three days until the Turks placed gunpowder in a mine and blew up the overall garrison. By this time, the main Maniot army of 5,000 men and 2,000 women had established a defensive position at which was on mountainous terrain above the town of Parasyros. The entire army was under the command of Exarchos Grigorakis and his nephew Zanetos Grigorakis. The Ottoman army advanced to the plain of Agio Pigada (meaning "Holy Well"). They sent envoys to the Maniots telling them that Hasan wanted to negotiate. The Maniots knew that if they sent envoys to the Turks, they would be executed by Hassán if the negotiations failed. The Maniots sent six men to discuss the terms.[38]

Six Maniot envoys were sent to Hasan and, without bowing, asked him what he wanted. Hasan's demands entailed the children of ten captains as hostages, all Maniot-held arms, and an annual head-tax to be paid as punishment for supporting the Russians. The Maniots answered Hasan's demands saying, "We prefer to die rather than give to you our guns and children. We don't pay taxes, because our land is poor." Hasan became furious and had the six men decapitated and impaled on stakes so that the Maniots could see them.[40]

After the envoys were killed, the remaining Maniots attacked the Ottomans. The fighting was fierce, and only 6,000 Turks managed to reach Mystras. No one knew exactly how many casualties the Maniots suffered, but the Turks definitively lost 10,000 men.[40]


19th century

In 1805, Seremet attacked Zacharias at his fortress in the Taygetus mountains and managed to kill him.[45] In 1807, the Ottomans attacked Antonbey at Gytheio, because he was unwilling to suppress his cousin, who was still attacking the Turks. The Turks were once again forced to retreat. Three years later, Antonbey resigned in favor of his son-in-law, Konstantis Zervakos, who was favorable to the bey of the Peloponnese. However, the Maniots did not agree with the Ottomans' choice and deposed Zervakos.[47]

Later that year, the Maniot leaders gathered at Gytheio and elected Theodoros Zanerakis or Theodorobey, Zanetbey's nephew, as bey. During 1815, the Ottomans attacked Mani but were driven back.[23] Theodorobey was removed from power later that year and was replaced by Petros Mavromichalis or Petrobey.[47]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots

Wiki, but its all cited, and all before 1821.

If you google book search it, lots of results come up

Your people were practically in bed with the Ottomans from day one,

I disagree. Although they may have paid tribute at times in order to maintain their independence, they fought more than they paid.

There was no blood shed between 1453 to 1821.

Should i laugh or cry?

[Spartan]

Make sure you double check your spelling and grammar onur, he will start looking for a reason to divert from your conversation. Its a get out of jail card for him

Onur has an excuse, English is obviously not his first language....and its better than yours