Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Akzion]

Well it's neither easy, nor clear to me. Maybe I'm stupid. Maybe you don't want to see an answer (it wouldn't be easy to form it until tomorrow, anyway).
Also, the main cultural centres of Greeks were changing (e.g. by century). What does per year mean? Do I annoy you or something? You act a little strange (and you carry a gun). You posed the question, didn't you?

[Serdarot]

Ok, i´ll help you

we are Macedonians / Makedones

now you say it / write it pls

[Akzion]

Serdarot,
I was referring to the other questions (not you).
You’re Macedonians too? No shit! Who would have thought, given the name of the forum? (Where from by the way?)

[Serdarot]

Serdarot,
I was referring to the other questions (not you).
You’re Macedonians too? No shit! Who would have thought, given the name of the forum? (Where from by the way?)

Well, imagine, Macedonians are mostly from Macedonia... But since we have different words for ethnicity and nationality, we are Makedon to Genos, and between us are such with Macedonian, German, Australian, USA and other passports

Our Mother Language is Macedonian.
Our Folklor is the Macedonian Folklor

It will be best if we let the irony on side, and you get this question / request from Daskalot serious... (if you want to participate on this forum, of course)

We are Ethnic Macedonians. We are the "entopi" "endopi", the Natives in Macedonia.

Can you accept it and write it? (without any prefixes or sufixes )

and pls explain

You’re Macedonians too?

znajs po nashki?

[George S.]

THey didn't call themselves hellenes only after 1832.Prior to 1832 greece was never a country,even the word greece didn't exist & is a latin word.THere is no link of modern greeks with ancient greeks.The language is different to the ancient greek.Also the so called greeks today are not greek but variatiions of other people albanians,vlachs etc.Greece is one big fake.Even their so called greek culture is borrowed albanian etc.The greek guards are dressed in albanian dress complete with hat & pampucina even trheir music is fake where regularly they steal other people's music.That is why the greeks go on & on lying about their past hoping that people bleive their propaganda.Well if agamoi is anything to go by they did good brainwashing him so he beleives the BS.Greece doesn't want the wotrld to know the real truth is that they are big fakes & liars,.

[Akzion]

Serdarot,
I know what you are and I know most of you are in Australia, I was asking which area, town, village of Macedonia you come from.
I don’t speak the language, can’t translate it (unless it’s in Cyrillic) and I couldn’t find out what you want me to explain. I’m Greek.
I wasn’t ironic. Is there anyone here who is not from Macedonia? And if so, why is here?

Daskalot,
I will insist (just a last time). What kind of list would you like to see?

GeorgeS,
Greeks DID call themselves Hellenes before 1832. E.g., during the 1821 Revolution the terms Hellene, Hellas, Hellenic are more common than Roman, Romaic.
Greece was indeed never a state by this name, before 1832.
The terms Greece/Greek are more common in the West, instead of Hellas, Hellenic; while, they are not used in Greece, they are of Greek, not Latin origin.
There’s an unbroken line/link between antiquity and Modern Greece. Greek may be the lengthiest continuous literature in the World (for about 28 centuries). While the language has evolved and varied depending on location and era, it’s the same (Greek) language.
Arvanites (Albanians) and Vlachs are minorities, now fully assimilated among Greeks. The new wave of Albanian immigrants (from early 1990s) also seems to integrate well, but that is early to say.
Greece is not a “fake country”; it is generally a recognized state. There are cases of “false-states”, e.g. Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Kosovo that have no recognition, limited recognition or other recognition problems.
I’m not sure which cultural elements come from Albania. I’m afraid, throughout 20th Century, all Northern Balkan influences paled comparing to the Western and Eastern ones. I know examples of popular Greek songs (attributed to Kaldaras or Kazantzidis), which are actually stolen from Indian copyrighted songs. Are you saying this is the rule? Globalization helps to reveal all forgeries and give reparation and credit to the real creators.
Greek guards wear the fustanela, as homage to… 19th Century fashion, when Greece was liberated. Besides the most familiar one, they actually were many local variations of fustanelas and other traditional outfits (Cretan, Pontic, Macedonian etc).

http://www.proedriki-froura.gr/2009-12-07-08-48-21/2009-12-07-08-59-08.html

[Ottoman]

Since day 1 Greeks began to claim Cyprus without sharing it with the Turks who were also on Cyprus for centuries.

Nobody understands the situation because nobody cares, the western world has always been hypocrite, they think the Turks invaded Cyprus while we just came there to rescue the Turks that were in terror because of the Greeks.

Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is Turkish and will stay Turkish, we dont care about what the the world thinks, they got their own issues dont they?

You Greeks need to understand that bashing innocent people is not an act of bravery, when the Turks landed on Cyprus there wasnt even any resistance from the Greek army, it was a complete joke, we teached you a lesson during that era.

We see what Greek soldiers do when they arent on duty, joking about the Turks but when the Turkish army is approaching they run away.

[Akzion]

Ottoman,
Except for the Western World, the Eastern World doesn’t understand you either. Same goes with the Northern and Southern World. No country has recognized Northern Cyprus as a legal state.
I see you are very brave. Can you explain or correct the numbers of troops and casualties (it’s in the Table, Up Right)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

[Ottoman]

The eastern world and the rest dont smash this bullshit in our faces all the time, the western world always states that Turkey cannot enter EU because of many reasons, one of them is Cyprus.

And no there was no resistance my friend, Northern Cyprus was occupied in 1 day, the Germans also occupied Holland in 3 days, many brave Dutch soldiers chose to fight but the Germans just destroyed them.

If the Greeks really cared about their beloved "Cyprus" they would have battled us till the end.

Cyprus is not important for us Turks, the only thing thats important are the Turks living on it.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Agamoi you failed to answer my question posed to you, why? Please answer it.

I think I've answered your questions.What exactly did I fail to answer from these:

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

I gave you a list of dates and names of people who selfidentified as Hellenes some centuries before 1832.Now if you mean there is a problem cause the list begins from 12th century,well then I suppose every other ethnicity in the world would face a similar problem,trying to prove its existence in medieval time through 10th or 9th century written sources where people declare themselves French,Spanish,Italians,Germans,Bulgarians,Sloveni ans e.t.c.

[Onur]

I gave you a list of dates and names of people who selfidentified as Hellenes some centuries before 1832.Now if you mean there is a problem cause the list begins from 12th century,well then I suppose every other ethnicity in the world would face a similar problem,trying to prove its existence in medieval time through 10th or 9th century written sources where people declare themselves French,Spanish,Italians,Germans,Bulgarians,Sloveni ans e.t.c.

Since this thread is about Kemal Ataturk, i better add this;

First of all, you are wrong Agamoi. If certain ethnic population has some literate people among them then there is no reason why they shouldn't write something about themselves by indicating their ethnicity. Also, not only themselves, other people can mention about them too.


Now look at this;

Turkic runic script on top and exact same sentence with Latin script at the bottom of the picture.


Modern Turkish version: Türk Oğuz beyleri, kavmi, işitin!; üstte gök(Tengri, Tanrı) bastırmazsa, altta yer delinmezse, Türk kavminin ilini, töresini kim bozabilir?

English Translation: Türk Oghuz chieftains, clans, listen!; If the sky(Sky is also God) above doesn't crush, if the ground below doesn't get punctured, who can ever destroy the land and law of the Turk(ic) people?


This sentence is just a small excerpt from Turkic Orkhon monuments written in 732 AD and even in this small sentence, not only they express their ethnicity, i can even sense nationalistic expression and thoughts, am i wrong?

If so-called "barbarian" Turks did write this in 732 AD, then your "godsend Hellenes" with 4000 year old civilization would surely had written something about themselves, right?. Ofc if they wouldn't disappeared after antiquity and really existed in medieval era as you said!!!

Do not come up with stupid examples like Slovenians or do you wanna compare your so-called "glorious Hellenic nation" with Slovenians????

[Soldier of Macedon]

Daskale,here is a short list of intellectuals and other distinguished people who called themselves Hellenes or Graikoi long before 1832
See pages 94-97 from that book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vce6EJAcHA4C&pg=PA97

1)The emperor of the Nicaen kingdom Theodoros Laskaris in 13th century,page 97.
2)His father and predecessor John Vatatzes in 1237,page 96.
3)The philosopher Theodore Metochites,1292 page 96.
4)Patriarch Germanos II,pages 95-96.
5)Emperor Michael Palaeologos,13th century.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IyHsNpkYkdgC&pg=PA116

6)The philosopher George Gemistos or Plethon in 15th century:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jEa8Iv5wJ0IC&pg=PA77

7)Nicholas Cabasilas,14th century theologian,pages 20 and 21 of that book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8jA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA20

8)Athanasios Lepenthrenos,14th century Cypriot scholar,page 21.
9)Demetrios Kydones,14th century Cretan theologian,page 21.
10)John Argyropoulos,15th century scholar,pages 21 and 22.
11)George Gennadius Scholarius,the first Patriarch after the Ottoman conquest,page 22.Even though he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of its connotations with paganism he nevertheless recognized that he was "a Greek by birth".
12)Lukas Spandonis,15th century Thessalonian nobleman:

http://www.archive.org/stream/travelsinnorthe05leakgoog#page/n252/mode/1up/

13)Andronikos Kallistos,15th century Thessalonian scholar:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lnSmnmL984YC&pg=PA97

14)Georgios Kontaris,17th century scholar from Kozani:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA442

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA235

15)George Zaviras from Siatista,author of the books "Hellenic theater or Nea Hellas consisting the history of all learned Greeks since the fall of the nation" in the last years of 18th century,pages 79 and 80 from that book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=QtRDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79

16)Daniil Filippidis and Grigorios Konstantas,authors of 'Modern Geography" in 1791:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JISd5jZu1mwC&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q=idolaters&f=false

17)Dimitrios Katartzis,18th century scholar.Although he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of religious reasons he pointed out that the people who called themselves Romioi have a strong connection to ancient Greeks:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JISd5jZu1mwC&pg=PA50

18)Theodosius Zygomalas and Symeon Cabasilas,16th century scholars called Greek the language that was spoken by common people,not romeika:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aHrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA557

Nice list. I didn't want it to go missing among the rest of the posts so I quoted it here, will address later in the day.

[Daskalot]

I think I've answered your questions.What exactly did I fail to answer from these:

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

I gave you a list of dates and names of people who selfidentified as Hellenes some centuries before 1832.Now if you mean there is a problem cause the list begins from 12th century,well then I suppose every other ethnicity in the world would face a similar problem,trying to prove its existence in medieval time through 10th or 9th century written sources where people declare themselves French,Spanish,Italians,Germans,Bulgarians,Sloveni ans e.t.c.

You have not answered my question. I will post it here again to help you remember it:

Greece as a state may have not existed before 1832 as you said but Greek people and Greek culture existed continuously from ancient till modern time.Greek culture influenced to a great degree the culture of all the neighbouring people (and was in turn influenced by them,that's normal) so that you use today a Greek nickname,daskale.And most Greeks may have called themselves Romioi and their language romeika in modern time,however there existed always an intellectual class that was aware of their real origin and so they used the terms Hellenes and Hellenic for their language long before 1832.

Can you please give us a rundown on the continual presence of as you call it 'Greek people/culture' from the ancient city states to the creation of the modern Greek state in 1832 in that geographical area which the state encompassed in 1832. Please break it down into years. Also would you be so kind to enlighten us to where this intellectual class whom as you say went by the name Hellenes long before the creation of the modern Greek state lived, their geographical locations please.

Please answer the highlighted part to the best of your ability. I am eagerly awaiting your answer.
I will give you an example of how I envision this list of yours;
500 BC - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
105 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
732 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1100 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
1831 AD - person possessing Greek culture and/or being Greek. Source to this material.
Note that they shall come from the geographical area that formed the Greek state in 1832.
I hope this helps you undertand what I am requesting of you.

[Orfej]

I gave you a list of dates and names of people who selfidentified as Hellenes some centuries before 1832.Now if you mean there is a problem cause the list begins from 12th century,well then I suppose every other ethnicity in the world would face a similar problem,trying to prove its existence in medieval time through 10th or 9th century written sources where people declare themselves French,Spanish,Italians,Germans,Bulgarians,Sloveni ans e.t.c.

I think that's exactly what he meant. Even if we agree that there were individuals identifying as `ethnic Hellenes` after the 12th century you still have two problems:

1. You can't explain the thirteen centuries old gap in which there was not a single person identifying as a `ethnic Helen`. That alone busts your continuity theory. The fact that other ethnicities have similar problems doesn't cut it. It just proves how shallow and weak the continuity theory in fact is. It usually is parroted blindlessly by nationalists who probably haven't heard the word social anthropology in their lives. Have you?

2. Even thought there were some individuals who had a `Hellenic identity`( the meaning that they applied to the word `Hellen` is highly controversial and debated by some modern authors), the fact remains, most of the population self-identified as `Romaioi`, called their language `Romeika` and their state `the Roman Empire` - in short they possessed a Roman identity.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Daskale,here is a short list of intellectuals and other distinguished people who called themselves Hellenes or Graikoi long before 1832
See pages 94-97 from that book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Vce6EJAcHA4C&pg=PA97

Short indeed, here is what your link says:

For one thing, Hellenic ideas did not unseat or even threaten the dominant ideology, which stated that the Byzantine polity was the successor to the Roman empire. Second, and more importantly, the inclination toward Hellenism was characteristic of the works of a few literati and thus was a matter of personal conviction rather than being a generally accepted political ideology of the Nicaean state.

So a couple of people felt a personal conviction to identify as 'Hellenes' in the middle ages because the Latin west was encroaching. It was not a common, nor even an accepted ideology. Generally speaking, the word 'Hellene' meant a 'pagan' or worshipper of the ancient gods, thus the true meaning in the Bible.

5)Emperor Michael Palaeologos,13th century.
http://books.google.com/books?id=IyHsNpkYkdgC&pg=PA116

Can you refer me to an example where Michael Palaeologos calls himself emperor of the Greeks?

6)The philosopher George Gemistos or Plethon in 15th century:
http://books.google.com/books?id=jEa8Iv5wJ0IC&pg=PA77

Plethon? Another pebble in the sand. His definition of 'Hellenism' is generally confined to the boundaries of the Peloponnese, the only place where (according to him) the 'real Hellenes' live. Do you agree with his interpretation?

7)Nicholas Cabasilas,14th century theologian,pages 20 and 21 of that book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8jA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA20

8)Athanasios Lepenthrenos,14th century Cypriot scholar,page 21.
9)Demetrios Kydones,14th century Cretan theologian,page 21.
10)John Argyropoulos,15th century scholar,pages 21 and 22.
11)George Gennadius Scholarius,the first Patriarch after the Ottoman conquest,page 22.Even though he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of its connotations with paganism he nevertheless recognized that he was "a Greek by birth".
12)Lukas Spandonis,15th century Thessalonian nobleman:

http://www.archive.org/stream/travel...n252/mode/1up/

13)Andronikos Kallistos,15th century Thessalonian scholar:
http://books.google.com/books?id=lnSmnmL984YC&pg=PA97

Cabasilas was an ardent opponent of unity between the eastern and western churches, so again, this is another rare example of a Roman identifying as a 'Hellene', which was a perception that stemmed from hatred towards the Latin west. It was never a grass roots movement among the people. The rest of them are anachronistic examples which were nowhere near the norm of the day, the only thing it evidences is that there were a very small handful of 'intellectuals' that harked back to the 'glory' days of antiquity. Can you show me an example where reference is made to commoners identifying as 'Hellenes'?

14)Georgios Kontaris,17th century scholar from Kozani:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA442

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-lr20SuvfIC&pg=PA235

He wrote a history of classical Athens. What else did I miss?

15)George Zaviras from Siatista,author of the books "Hellenic theater or Nea Hellas consisting the history of all learned Greeks since the fall of the nation" in the last years of 18th century,pages 79 and 80 from that book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QtRDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79

Can you refer me to a translation of the book?

16)Daniil Filippidis and Grigorios Konstantas,authors of 'Modern Geography" in 1791:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JIS...laters&f=false

Here is a passage from your link regarding Filippidis and co.:

Hellenes began to call themselves Romaioi and to appropriate the name of their tyrants, especially since they thought, out of ignorance, that "Hellenes" was a name that belonged to the idolaters.

It DID belong to the idolaters! Filippidis seems like a confused chap, as the term 'Hellene' is diametrically opposed to that of Romaioi (which signified 'Christian'). Where are all of the Helleno-Christians throughout history??

17)Dimitrios Katartzis,18th century scholar.Although he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of religious reasons he pointed out that the people who called themselves Romioi have a strong connection to ancient Greeks:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JISd5jZu1mwC&pg=PA50

Does that also include all of the Macedonians, Albanians, Vlachs, Gypsies and others that called themselves Romaioi?

18)Theodosius Zygomalas and Symeon Cabasilas,16th century scholars called Greek the language that was spoken by common people,not romeika:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aHrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA557

Yep. But look what else is written about the 'Greeks' in your link:

The country called Turkey in Europe has received such a perpetual succession of invaders and settlers, that it would be impossible to fix upon those in whom the right of possession might be justly vested. A great proportion of those who are comprehended under the term Romaioi, or Christians of the Greek Church, and amongst whom would be found the chief supporters of an insurrection, are certainly of a mixed origin, sprung from Scythian colonists. Such are the Albanians, the Maniotes, the Macedonian, Bulgarian, and Wallachian Greeks. And yet the whole nation, including, I presume, these Christians, has been computed only at two millions and a half, of all ages and sexes, and consequently there is no pan of Continental Greece to which a body of Turks might not be instantly brought, sufficient to quell any revolt: the Mahometans of Albania are alone equal to the task, and on a rising of the Giauoitrs, the Infidels, would leave all private dissension, to accomplish such a work. The Greeks taken collectively', cannot, in fact, be so properly called an individual people, as a religious sect dissent-* jug from the established church of the Ottoman Empire.

I agree.

From the 13th - 18th centuries, .001% of intellectuals and the upper class made reference to the terms 'Hellene' and 'Greek'. Unless of course the above list is all of the intellectuals and the upper class citizens during that time? Can you cite some examples of ideological continuity between these so-called 'Hellenes' from the middle ages and the rebels that fought in the Morea against the Ottomans? Did Kolokotronis, Kondouriotes and the other Albanians ever refer to Plethon and others as the people from whom they drew their 'Hellenic' inspiration?

The new 'kingdom of Hellenes' needed to be created by England, France, Germany and Russia before 'Hellenes' could exist. Macedonians, on the other hand, advocated for their nation before their state was re-established in modern times. Big difference. One wonders who and what the 'Hellenes' would be if there was no 'Hellas' given to you by the West.