Originally posted by Onur
View Post
Mustafa Kemal Atatrk and his Macedonian ancestry
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Onur View PostAlso, even today, Karamanlides in Greece exhibits medieval Turkish customs, habits, typical central Anatolian clothing, dances etc. Look for the Karamanlides videos from Greece. In their cultural gatherings, they sing and speak Turkish.
Here they are;
YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Κάλενιν - Kalenin "
YouTube - O HOROS TON SPATHION(dance of the swords) from Cappadocia
YouTube - The dance LEILALOUM from Cappadocia
YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Βάρα βάρα - Κόνιαλι "
YouTube - KAPPADOKIA # 1
Are these people looking like Greeks to you? If these are true Greeks then who are the rest of Greeks? Ethiopian immigrants? Cuz the difference between them is THAT big. HahaLast edited by Onur; 12-02-2010, 05:56 PM.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Onur View PostBesides that, there are several records of central Anatolian Turks, mainly Karamanlides being converted as christians in the Byzantine archives of 13th century. They specifically noted that the Turks who have recently been converted to christianity in central Anatolia in late 13th century. They call them as Tourkopoulos.
Originally posted by Onur View PostAlso, even today, Karamanlides in Greece exhibits medieval Turkish customs, habits, typical central Anatolian clothing, dances etc.
Originally posted by Onur View PostLook for the Karamanlides videos from Greece. In their cultural gatherings, they sing and speak Turkish. I have to remind you that the Karamanlides are allowed to organize their own cultural festivals in Greece only after 1980s. So it`s actually unbelievable that they managed to preserve their true customs under 70+ years assimilation and oppression.
Originally posted by Onur View PostThe Greek oppression upon them was so strict. I watched some documents about them and older Karamanlides Turks says that in 1930s, when they recently settled to Greece, Greek police was secretly sneaking under their window to listen if they speak Turkish in their homes and punish them if they hear them speak Turkish.
...and, according to traditions handed down in the old Greek families, any one heard speaking Greek in the public streets had his tongue plucked out.
Book digitized by Google from the library of the University of Michigan and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.
In many parts of the interior Greeks and other people were forbidden to speak in their native tongue and were obliged to use Turkish
Book digitized by Google from the library of the New York Public Library and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.
Originally posted by Onur View PostSo, we have Byzantine records for the converted Turks to christianity but appereanty there are no records of Greeks being converted as muslims in Byzantine archives as today`s Greeks claims. You know, they say that the Turks in Anatolia are muslimized Greeks!! just like indigen and this Greek guy claimed here;"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Onur View Post
Here they are;
YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Κάλενιν - Kalenin "
YouTube - O HOROS TON SPATHION(dance of the swords) from Cappadocia
YouTube - The dance LEILALOUM from Cappadocia
YouTube - Χοροί της Καππαδοκίας - " Βάρα βάρα - Κόνιαλι "
YouTube - KAPPADOKIA # 1
Are these people looking like Greeks to you? If these are true Greeks then who are the rest of Greeks? Ethiopian immigrants? Cuz the difference between them is THAT big. Haha
To speakers of modern Greek the Homeric poems of the 7th century BC are not written in a foreign language. The Greek language has enjoyed a continuous tradition from earliest times until now. This book traces its history from the immediately post-classical or Hellenistic period to the present day. The aim is both to analyse the changing structure of a language stabilised by a peculiarly long and continuous literary tradition, and to show how changing historical circumstances are reflected in its development. In particular the historical roots of modern Greek's internal bilingualism are traced.
However it's strange that a Turk confuses Karamania with Cappadocia!"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostThese people are from Cappadocia,they are not Karamanlides!Cappadocians were Greek-speaking people,no relation to Karamanlides.They spoke a specific Greek dialect,though influenced by Turkish but Greek nevertheless:
To speakers of modern Greek the Homeric poems of the 7th century BC are not written in a foreign language. The Greek language has enjoyed a continuous tradition from earliest times until now. This book traces its history from the immediately post-classical or Hellenistic period to the present day. The aim is both to analyse the changing structure of a language stabilised by a peculiarly long and continuous literary tradition, and to show how changing historical circumstances are reflected in its development. In particular the historical roots of modern Greek's internal bilingualism are traced.
However it's strange that a Turk confuses Karamania with Cappadocia!
That's a lie of Turkish propaganda!Such records don't exist!Why don't you show any link?
I was talking only about some Turks of the Black Sea (Pontos) region,not all of Anatolia.
Greeks in Turkey were not treated better:
...and, according to traditions handed down in the old Greek families, any one heard speaking Greek in the public streets had his tongue plucked out.
Book digitized by Google from the library of the University of Michigan and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.
In many parts of the interior Greeks and other people were forbidden to speak in their native tongue and were obliged to use Turkish
http://www.archive.org/stream/leaven...arch/forbiddenLast edited by Onur; 12-02-2010, 06:40 PM.
Comment
-
-
Agreed Onur. I concur exactly with your posts. Under the Ottoman Empire the Macedonians kept their language, culture, identity.
Greek fascists have almost wiped out with their nazi tactics the Macedonians speaking their lanuage in Aegean Macedonia the last 50 years.
Greeks are fascist anit-christ , they are the ones with the identity issues, being ALbanian and vlachs, a newly formed hellenic tribe , since 1830. There is not such thing as Greek"The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev
Comment
-
-
well said julie i agree with you wholeheartedly.There is a saying the greeks will appropriate anything & call it their own.There is heaps of examples is the big lie that the greeks are really macedonians.When one examines that one finds how hollow & empty that really is."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
Greeks in Turkey were not treated better:
...and, according to traditions handed down in the old Greek families, any one heard speaking Greek in the public streets had his tongue plucked out.
Book digitized by Google from the library of the University of Michigan and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.
In many parts of the interior Greeks and other people were forbidden to speak in their native tongue and were obliged to use Turkish
Book digitized by Google from the library of the New York Public Library and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.
Do you know that Macedonian was forbiden language in your demoNcrazy state, that people were tortured and killed if they spoke single word in Macedonian, that your "brave" andarts and other scum were waiting hidden under the window of some Macedonian House and if they heard single Macedonian Word, they would burn the House, kill / rape / expell the residents, in most cases cuting the thong to those who dared to speak Macedonian...???
Do you know that your pathetic Nation of false Christs and false Democrats, destroed THOUSANDS of Churches and Graves?
Do you know that your pathetic Nation is still doing the same?
Do you actualy know, how pathetic your nation is?
Of course you can understand few words of Koine, couse you were all tought to speak "greek"!
But your ancestors are Albanians or Macedonians or Turks or Vlachs or i dont know what, and NONE of them had "Koine" as their MOTHER Language!
Fkn ignorant gayreeks, you should first beg for forgivness before you even dare to create an account on Macedonian Forum...
@ Ottoman: i guess you are not even aware how much Macedonian you have in your own language i guess you are not aware how much Macedonian you have in your Culture.
Even Zurla / Zurna , the traditional Turkish Instrument, is actualy Macedonian Word and instrument.
Even Raki, the traditional Turkish drink, has nothing to do with the original Turks
Even Samovar, the traditional turkish Tee-Cooker, is a Macedonian Word
wrong topic, but if i decide to visit this forum often again, i could help you to realize how much Macedonian you have in your country, culture, language, everythingLast edited by Serdarot; 12-03-2010, 11:05 PM.Bratot:
Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Serdarot View Postyou must be jokin, or?
Do you know that Macedonian was forbiden language in your demoNcrazy state, that people were tortured and killed if they spoke single word in Macedonian, that your "brave" andarts and other scum were waiting hidden under the window of some Macedonian House and if they heard single Macedonian Word, they would burn the House, kill / rape / expell the residents, in most cases cuting the thong to those who dared to speak Macedonian...???
Do you know that your pathetic Nation of false Christs and false Democrats, destroed THOUSANDS of Churches and Graves?
Do you know that your pathetic Nation is still doing the same?
Do you actualy know, how pathetic your nation is?
Of course you can understand few words of Koine, couse you were all tought to speak "greek"!
But your ancestors are Albanians or Macedonians or Turks or Vlachs or i dont know what, and NONE of them had "Koine" as their MOTHER Language!
Fkn ignorant gayreeks, you should first beg for forgivness before you even dare to create an account on Macedonian Forum...
@ Ottoman: i guess you are not even aware how much Macedonian you have in your own language i guess you are not aware how much Macedonian you have in your Culture.
Even Zurla / Zurna , the traditional Turkish Instrument, is actualy Macedonian Word and instrument.
Even Raki, the traditional Turkish drink, has nothing to do with the original Turks
Even Samovar, the traditional turkish Tee-Cooker, is a Macedonian Word
wrong topic, but if i decide to visit this forum often again, i could help you to realize how much Macedonian you have in your country, culture, language, everything"The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev
Comment
-
-
well said julie people like agamoi have a predertirmined set of propaganda to spread which amazingly falls into greek government propaganda line.Did you notice that there is no acknowledgement of what they did to the macedonians.We don't even exist.We don't get any respect even in our own forums.There is constant denial & paranoia about the past & present,their ongoing campaign to destroy any resemblance of macedonism but at the same time to appropriate any & monopolise anything macedonian for themselves.
People like agamoi actually beleive their brand of history whether it is ancient or modern it is tainted full of lies & distortions & falsehoods.Were not stupid when you deny our identity,our respect,culture,& our history.Agamoi we don't take what is your but what is ours & has been ours for eeons even before greece set foot in greece 3000 years ago from the sudan africa."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostDaskale,here is a short list of intellectuals and other distinguished people who called themselves Hellenes or Graikoi long before 1832
See pages 94-97 from that book:
This study is the first to systematically investigate Byzantine imperial ideology, court rhetoric and political thought after the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204 - in the Nicaean state (1204-61) and during the early period of the restored empire of the Palaiologoi. The book explores Byzantine political imagination at a time of crisis when the Empire ceased to be a first-rate power in the Mediterranean. It investigates the correspondence and fissures between official political rhetoric, on the one hand, and the political ideas of lay thinkers and churchmen, on the other. Through the analysis of a wide body of sources, a picture of Byzantine political thought emerges which differs significantly from the traditional one. The period saw refreshing developments in court rhetoric and political thought, some with interesting parallels in the medieval and Renaissance West, which arose in response to the new historical realities.
1)The emperor of the Nicaen kingdom Theodoros Laskaris in 13th century,page 97.
2)His father and predecessor John Vatatzes in 1237,page 96.
3)The philosopher Theodore Metochites,1292 page 96.
4)Patriarch Germanos II,pages 95-96.
5)Emperor Michael Palaeologos,13th century.
First published in 1989. This volume includes twelve of the main papers given at the Joint Meeting of the XXII Spring Symposium of Byzantine Studies and of the Society for the Study of the Crusades and the Latin East held at the University of Nottingham from 26-29 March 1988. The Conference brought together a wide range of scholars and dealt with four main themes: relations between native Greeks and western settlers in the states founded by the Latin conquerors in former Byzantine lands in the wake of the Fourth Crusade; the Byzantine successor states at Nicaea, Epirus, and Thessalonica; the influence of the Italian maritime communes on the eastern Mediterranean in the later Middle Ages and the Renaissance; and the impact on Christian societies there of the Mongols and the Ottoman Turks, as well as the perception of Greeks and Latins by other groups in the eastern Mediterranean.
6)The philosopher George Gemistos or Plethon in 15th century:
This volume offers a comprehensive and authoritative account of the history of a complex and varied body of ideas over a period of more than one thousand years. A work of both synthesis and assessment, The Cambridge History of Medieval Political Thought presents the results of several decades of critical scholarship in the field, and reflects in its breadth of enquiry precisely that diversity of focus that characterized the medieval sense of the "political," preoccupied with universality at some levels, and with almost minute particularity at others. Among the vital questions explored by the distinguished team of contributors are the nature of authority, of justice, of property; the problem of legitimacy, of allegiance, of resistance to the powers that be; the character and functions of law, and the role of custom in maintaining a social structure.
7)Nicholas Cabasilas,14th century theologian,pages 20 and 21 of that book:
8)Athanasios Lepenthrenos,14th century Cypriot scholar,page 21.
9)Demetrios Kydones,14th century Cretan theologian,page 21.
10)John Argyropoulos,15th century scholar,pages 21 and 22.
11)George Gennadius Scholarius,the first Patriarch after the Ottoman conquest,page 22.Even though he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of its connotations with paganism he nevertheless recognized that he was "a Greek by birth".
12)Lukas Spandonis,15th century Thessalonian nobleman:
Book digitized by Google from the library of Oxford University and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.
13)Andronikos Kallistos,15th century Thessalonian scholar:
Constantine XI Palaiologos was the last Christian Emperor of Constantinople and Byzantium. In 1453, when Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks, he was last seen fighting at the city walls, but the actual circumstances of his death have remained surrounded in myth. In the years that followed it was said that he was not dead but sleeping - the 'immortal emperor' turned to marble, who would one day be awakened by an angel and drive the Turks out of his city and empire. Donald Nicol's book tells the gripping story of Constantine's life and death, and ends with an intriguing account of claims by reputed descendants of his family - some remarkably recent - to be heirs to the Byzantine throne.
14)Georgios Kontaris,17th century scholar from Kozani:
This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present. Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources.Greece has an old and influential literary tradition. The lion's share of attention has been given to classical Greek literature, yet the nation continues to produce significant imaginative works. This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present.Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources. The encyclopedia also offers a useful chronology of modern Greek literature, a select bibliography of important general works, and a detailed subject index.
This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present. Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources.Greece has an old and influential literary tradition. The lion's share of attention has been given to classical Greek literature, yet the nation continues to produce significant imaginative works. This reference provides more than 800 alphabetically arranged entries on important authors, texts, genres, themes, and topics in Greek literature from the Byzantine period to the present.Brief, readable entries provide basic information on the history and development of modern Greek literature and language. Each entry is thoroughly cross-referenced, and most conclude with a bibliography of further information resources. The encyclopedia also offers a useful chronology of modern Greek literature, a select bibliography of important general works, and a detailed subject index.
15)George Zaviras from Siatista,author of the books "Hellenic theater or Nea Hellas consisting the history of all learned Greeks since the fall of the nation" in the last years of 18th century,pages 79 and 80 from that book:
16)Daniil Filippidis and Grigorios Konstantas,authors of 'Modern Geography" in 1791:
This is a history of the great language controversy that has occupied and impassioned Greeks - sometimes with fatal results - for over two hundred years. It begins in the late eighteenth century when a group of Greek intellectuals sought to develop a new, Hellenic, national identity alongside the traditional identity supplied by Orthodox Christianity. The ensuing controversy focused on the language, fuelled on the one hand by a desire to develop a form of Greek that expressed the Greeks' relationship to the ancients, and on the other by the different groups' contrasting notions of what the national image so embodied should be. The purists wanted a written language close to the ancient. The vernacularists - later known as demoticists - sought to match written language to spoken, claiming the latter to be the product of the unbroken development of Greek since the time of Homer. Peter Mackridge explores the political, social, and linguistic causes and effects of the controversy in its many manifestations. Drawing on a wide range of evidence from literature, language, history, and anthropology, he traces its effects on spoken and written varieties of Greek and shows its impact on those in use today. He describes the efforts of linguistic elites and the state to achieve language standardization and independence from languages such as Turkish, Albanian, Vlach, and Slavonic. This is a timely book. The sense of national and linguistic identity that has been inculcated into generations of Greeks since the start of the War of Independence in 1821 has, in the last 25 years, received blows from which it may not recover. Immigration from Eastern Europe and elsewhere has introduced new populations whose religions, languages, and cultures are transforming Greece into a country quite different from what it has been and from what it once aspired to be.
17)Dimitrios Katartzis,18th century scholar.Although he rejected the use of the term Hellenes because of religious reasons he pointed out that the people who called themselves Romioi have a strong connection to ancient Greeks:
This is a history of the great language controversy that has occupied and impassioned Greeks - sometimes with fatal results - for over two hundred years. It begins in the late eighteenth century when a group of Greek intellectuals sought to develop a new, Hellenic, national identity alongside the traditional identity supplied by Orthodox Christianity. The ensuing controversy focused on the language, fuelled on the one hand by a desire to develop a form of Greek that expressed the Greeks' relationship to the ancients, and on the other by the different groups' contrasting notions of what the national image so embodied should be. The purists wanted a written language close to the ancient. The vernacularists - later known as demoticists - sought to match written language to spoken, claiming the latter to be the product of the unbroken development of Greek since the time of Homer. Peter Mackridge explores the political, social, and linguistic causes and effects of the controversy in its many manifestations. Drawing on a wide range of evidence from literature, language, history, and anthropology, he traces its effects on spoken and written varieties of Greek and shows its impact on those in use today. He describes the efforts of linguistic elites and the state to achieve language standardization and independence from languages such as Turkish, Albanian, Vlach, and Slavonic. This is a timely book. The sense of national and linguistic identity that has been inculcated into generations of Greeks since the start of the War of Independence in 1821 has, in the last 25 years, received blows from which it may not recover. Immigration from Eastern Europe and elsewhere has introduced new populations whose religions, languages, and cultures are transforming Greece into a country quite different from what it has been and from what it once aspired to be.
18)Theodosius Zygomalas and Symeon Cabasilas,16th century scholars called Greek the language that was spoken by common people,not romeika:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aHrVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA557Macedonian Truth Organisation
Comment
-
-
Even Zurla / Zurna , the traditional Turkish Instrument, is actualy Macedonian Word and instrument.
Even Raki, the traditional Turkish drink, has nothing to do with the original Turks
Even Samovar, the traditional turkish Tee-Cooker, is a Macedonian Word
The origins of Raki are not known, all Balkan nations have it.
Samovar is Russian.
Comment
-
-
Zurna / Zurla enter Turkish via Persian, it is not Macedonian?
If you knew to speak Macedonian, you would KNOW it is Macedonian.
zURLA
Urla = Screaming, Shouting...
as i can remember, i think there was something like Macedonians conquered the Persian Empire, and ruled with those WASTE / Large territories for many centuries?
Raki - i dont claim it is only Macedonian drink, but good you dont claim it is Turk-only drink
And why "rusian" , about Samovar?
Samo Vari - Macedonian, not Ruski
btw, i might left an impresion of anti-Turk?
if so - wrong impresion, i love Turkey and the Turkish Culture
ask Onur ^^
ontopic:
like some of you said, it is actualy not so important what was Kemal Malik Ataturk by blood... he is one of the persons that marked the 20th century, and no metter if we are Macedonian, Turk, Greek, we should be proud on him...Bratot:
Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.
Comment
-
Comment