Priscus at the court of Attila the Huns

[Onur]

We now know exactly who the Scythians were and where they came from. Even during the Renaissance Period, the Cossacks still wore their hair rounded on their heads like horse tails. The figure that came to be known in the Western European historical narrative as Atilla the Hun was a Cossack.

You cannot define a single ethnicity for the Scythians especially not a small populated group like Cossacks. Scythians was a general term for all horse riding, semi-nomadic tribes of Eurasia who had a kurgan culture and used runic script `till they adopted Abrahamic religions. If you specifically look for who was Attila, watch the documentary in this thread by British scholar. It`s commonly agreed that Attila was speaking Turkic just like the most populated tribe among the Huns was Turkic people again(incl. Avars, Oghuz, Bulgars, Khazars etc). We know that from the names of the tribes of Hunnic Empire, written in a medieval codex named Isfahan. Most tribal names are in Turkic.

Btw, i gotta remind you that both the words "Kurgan" and "Cossacks" are old Turkic. Ask google if you don't believe me, you will find some books and sources for the etymologies and explanation of them .

Dimiter Markovski:
"Khan Asparouh's Bulgaro-Turks"

"The year 681 accepted as Year One of Bulgaria's history."

"...Banner of the Proto-Bulgarian troops consisted of horse's tail
attached to a spear..."

Here is more about that banner;

Turkic Flags and Other Identifiers


Tamga

A tamga, or tamgha (Modern Turkish: damga) is an abstract seal or device used by Eurasian nomadic peoples and by cultures influenced by them. The tamga was normally the emblem of a particular tribe, clan or family. They were common among the Scythians, Sarmatians, all Turkic peoples, including Khazars and Uigurs, and Alans. Neighboring sedentary people sometimes adopted tamga-like symbols; for example, the stylized trident tamga, or seal were used by various peoples of Eastern Europe and Asia: Kushans, Rus', Khazars, Kipchaks, Mongols, Tatars, Lithuanians and Poles.

"The complex system of Turkish tribal tamghas included animals, tridents and various other symbols, though it is possible that the trident itself was a very simplified bow and arrow. It certainly became a military symbol among the Mongols in the 13th and 14th centuries."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook*)


The Windsock Banner

"...The so-called 'dragon' form of wind-sock banner came into widespread use in 4th-century Roman armies. It was closely associated with achery, as it had been among the people of the steppes, and was used as late as the 12th century..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

The illustration below, shows Charlemagne's Windsock banner. The Franks were strongly influenced by, and even related to the Avars (Childeric's burial with his horses is one illustration of such early Steppes influence). Charlemagne's mother was an Avar princess and he eventually took control in Pannonia (later a major Bulgar and Magyar center). (Norman Finkelshteyn)



"...the so-called 'trousers'-shaped banner of Salah al-Din's nephew Taqi al-Din might have been a windsock banner used by archers of recent Central Asian origin."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)



Flags and Pennons

"In addition to their famous horse-tail standards, the Turks used tos (totemic ensigns) and batraq or beyraq (individual flags or pennons). The latter was originally attached to a spear shaft and would later be known in Othmanli (Ottoman) Turkish as a sanjaq.
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


[In late Roman and early Romano-Byzantine armies, the earlier] "...vexullum form of banner which hung vertically... was gradually replaced by the bandon hung horizontally and may have reflected Germanic or Avar military influence..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

[In the Sassanian Empire] "the terms used for military units and their associated banners was often the same ...the large drafsh or dirafsh unit and its flag, and the small vasht unit and flag. Ordinary flags were shaped like streamers or banderoles whereas the great state banner of the Sassanian Empire ...Drafsh-i Kavyan 'Banner of Kavagh' ...consisted of a decorated leather sheet, seven metres long and five across, encrusted with precious stones, yellow, red and purple brocade, surmounted by a golden sphere or crescent and festooned with streamers."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook) (this banner was said to have been the Apron of the smith Kave - who led the ancient Iranians in establishing themselves)

"Byzantine, western European, native Slav and various steppe fashions contributed to the flags, banners and heraldic motifs of medieval Russia..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...Christian Georgia ...basically Byzantine forms of flag and shield patterns were also amalgamated with powerful Islamic and Persian influence. For example the late 12th--early 13th-century Georgian alami was a large red-and-black royal banner, and the drosha was a long streamer-like flag sometimes used aboard ship."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

[In the Muslim world] "flags came back strongly under the Umayyads. By the 13th century manuscript illustrations showed various types, including a slender form possibly resulting from Turkish or Chinese influence..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


Tugh - Animal Hair Banner

"...in Central Asia, the tug (horse-tail banner) also used yak and big-cat tails; five, seven or nine being reserved for a ruler or subordinate khan during the pre-Islamic period. Smaller tugs were also attached to war-drums."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...the Central Asian tug or yak-tailed pennant entered the Middle East with various waves of Turkish nomads and soldiers. The number of tails indicated rank, and although this device had pagan origins it continued to be used by many Turco-Muslim armies such as that of the Ottoman Empire where... [it] was called tugh. Here six tails were reserved for the Sultan, lesser numbers being used by senior officers. Variations on the tugh were seen in post-Mongol Iran where it was sometimes combined with an ordinary flag, and also among various Anatolian dervish brotherhoods where very simple forms of tugh had tufts of wool instead of animals' tails..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


Images of Animals

"...Animals and birds were important warrior motifs in the earlier centuries, often appearing on helmets in Central Asian wall-paintings; gilded wolf's head-shaped standards were reserved for the supreme khagan or khan of khans. Genghis Khan used a bird's head emblem, and Hulegu is said to have had an 'eagle banner'. There are also references to human as well as animal-shaped helmet crests in Mongol epics."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...Surprisingly, perhaps, the double-headed eagle, which became the most important late Byzantine imperial device, was of ancient oriental origin rather than having much connection with the ancient Roman imperial eagle..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"The double-headed eagle had been a popular pattern on Islamic fabrics since the 10th century and was adopted as an identifying motif by the Turkish rulers of Anatolia and the Middle East from the late 11th century onwards..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...lions and leopards are also mentioned as banner devices in late 10th-century Persian literature..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"Chinese-looking dragons were introduced to the Middle East by the Turks."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


"Medieval warfare source book: Christian Europe and its neighbours" by David Nicolle, Brockhampton press,1998.

http://books.google.com/books?id=adoAAAAACAAJ

The illustration below, shows Charlemagne's Windsock banner. The Franks were strongly influenced by, and even related to the Avars (Childeric's burial with his horses is one illustration of such early Steppes influence). Charlemagne's mother was an Avar princess...

Ohhh, Franks used a similar banner too and apparently Charlemagne`s mother was a Turko-Mongol woman from Avars!!! Or maybe Franks was an Asian mongols too, indigen?

[Serdarot]

An interesting documentary about the Huns and other European Germanic tribes by Discovery Channel;

wow...

how come the Asiatic Tribes (Huns) became Germanic?

wow...

after changing "indo-european" with "indo-germanic"...

and after the graeko-bulgarian myths

this is the most funny history re-re-re-visi-(goth)-ted

i might understood it wrong, pls say i understood it wrong (i tooked some strong painkiller, might be i am understanding it wrong ^^ )

[Sovius]

You cannot define a single ethnicity for the Scythians especially not a small populated group like Cossacks. Scythians was a general term for all horse riding, semi-nomadic tribes of Eurasia who had a kurgan culture and used runic script `till they adopted Abrahamic religions.

If this is the case then you should be able to provide evidence demonstrating your position. What anthropological evidence or historical passage demonstrates that the term Scythians was used for all Eurasian populations beyond the Roman frontier and not a specific population of people whose presence in this same region was observed since before the rise of the Macedonian Empire by Hellenic writers? Could it be your mistaking Altaic language speaking troops that may have possibly fought under Attila for actual Scythians?

If you specifically look for who was Attila, watch the documentary in this thread by British scholar.

I think I would much rather like to watch a documentary about Attila made by a Ukrainian or Russian scholar who actually knew what he or she was talking about.

It`s commonly agreed that Attila was speaking Turkic just like the most populated tribe among the Huns was Turkic people again(incl. Avars, Oghuz, Bulgars, Khazars etc). We know that from the names of the tribes of Hunnic Empire, written in a medieval codex named Isfahan. Most tribal names are in Turkic.

You mean it is commonly agreed among Western European historical revisionists that Attila was speaking Turkic. The names of many peoples and places have been Grecianized, Latinized and even Hungarianized throughout history. These intra-cultural adaptions do not equate to actual ethnic transformations in relation to the reality of the historical period in question.

Btw, i gotta remind you that both the words "Kurgan" and "Cossacks" are old Turkic. Ask google if you don't believe me, you will find some books and sources for the etymologies and explanation of them .

Please present evidence that demonstrates that the Scythians referred to what you call kurgans as kurgans. What ancient text contains a passage that states, “I’m a Scythian and we call our burial mounds kurgans”? This line of reasoning is an excellent example of the effects of anachronistic revisionism on scholarship. Its faulty logic. We know what they referred to Attila’s going away party as and it was recorded by an eyewitness. What is the quality of the evidence that you are basing your belief that Attila was Turkic on and what is the state of this supposed evidence?

[Ottoman]

wow...

how come the Asiatic Tribes (Huns) became Germanic?

wow...

after changing "indo-european" with "indo-germanic"...

and after the graeko-bulgarian myths

this is the most funny history re-re-re-visi-(goth)-ted

i might understood it wrong, pls say i understood it wrong (i tooked some strong painkiller, might be i am understanding it wrong ^^ )

The Huns were in Europe for almost a century, surely they do got mixed.

[indigen]

The Huns were in Europe for almost a century, surely they do got mixed.

How about Kemal Attatur's bloodline, do you think it got mixed and to what extent if it did? :-)

[Ottoman]

How about Kemal Attatur's bloodline, do you think it got mixed and to what extent if it did? :-)

You first need to research your family tree and history.

Kemals bloodline is Turkmen, there are even records that his ancestors moved from Central Anatolia to the Balkans and then to Selanik, you just dont need to forget that those places were all Ottoman territory.

I also dont know my own bloodline, maybe Im also from the Balkans who knows, I may have Macedonian blood.

I dont have any problems with the fact that you guys claim Ataturk as Macedonian but if you do so you also have to claim Jennifer Aniston as Greek.

[Onur]

How about Kemal Attatur's bloodline, do you think it got mixed and to what extent if it did? :-)

Indigen, I think you ask or imply this same question to me for the 100th time this week and i am gonna answer to you with same respond again; Like i said BEFORE, blood doesn't mean shit to us, we don't fucking care about it. It`s the ideas which connects us to each other.

If you really wonder whats Turkish people`s racial connections, then come here and make a research but first you better tell us all about how much Bulgaro-Tatar, Greek or Turkish blood you have yourself??? OR do you think you are pure breed like pet animals?

Stop pestering me by repeating your idiotic argument about bloodline, will ya? Come up with better ones next time.

[Ottoman]

Hayreddin Barbarossa and Turgut Reis were both of Greek origin but most Greeks dont even know these two because they were Ottoman Turkish sea heroes.

Hayreddin Barbarossa inspired Hollywood that much they created his character in the Pirates of the Caribbeans movie.

Both men were raised as Ottomans and they lived like Ottomans, they also spoke the Ottoman Turkish language.

None of them ever spoke of their Greek background or anything else relating to their "Greekness".

Like I said before, you can count Jennifer Aniston as a Greek too if you really care about bloodline that much.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Ottoman View Post
The Huns were in Europe for almost a century, surely they do got mixed.

Originally Posted by indigen View Post
How about Kemal Attatur's bloodline, do you think it got mixed and to what extent if it did? :-)

You first need to research your family tree and history.

Why and how is that related to the above question I posed to you?

Kemals bloodline is Turkmen, there are even records that his ancestors moved from Central Anatolia to the Balkans and then to Selanik, you just dont need to forget that those places were all Ottoman territory.

So you assume Huns had mixed ancestry (blood) after only 100 years but Kemal Attturk's family remained pure and unmixed after hundreds (you tell us when they first arrived to Macedonia!) of years of living as part of a ruling society which often practised polygamy and took wives from the "Raya" as converts?

I also don't know my own bloodline, maybe Im also from the Balkans who knows, I may have Macedonian blood.

No big issue for me, mate.

I don't have any problems with the fact that you guys claim Ataturk as Macedonian but if you do so you also have to claim Jennifer Aniston as Greek.

I am not one of those making big claims on him but just wanted to point out your double standards as it related to the Huns and your above assumptions.

[indigen]

Barbarossa and Turgut Reis were both of Greek origin but most Greeks dont even know these two because they were Ottoman Turkish sea heroes.

This is a serious ideological flaw of yours in repeating INVENTED WESTERN political phraseology for there was NO "GREEKS" back then except some refugees in the West who followed in the footsteps of Western Helenophilia and its Renaissance/post-Renaissance era fascination with the "glories of ancient Greece" !

They were raised as Ottomans and they lived like Ottomans, they also spoke the Ottoman Turkish language.

Empires were mostly multi-ethnic in history and this should be no surprise.

None of them ever spoke of their Greek background or anything else relating to their "Greekness".

Maybe because there was NO SUCH CONCEPT back then!? :-)

[indigen]

Indigen, I think you ask or imply this same question to me for the 100th time this week and i am gonna answer to you with same respond again;

I surely have not had more than 10 (20 maximum) forum posts in any discussion with you, don't exaggerate in order to make cheap shots against me!

If you really wonder whats Turkish people`s racial connections, then come here and make a research but first you better tell us all about how much Bulgaro-Tatar, Greek or Turkish blood you have yourself??? OR do you think you are pure breed like pet animals?

You are the one who does not accept the existing world views, based on scientific evidence for the origins of Turko-Mongols, and inadvertently tries to undermine our best ideological weaponry against certain anti-Macedonian enemies.

Secondly, nobody claims pure anything so stop your silly ranting on that issue! But whilst there might be tiny bits of Turko-Mongol genetic input, here and there, amongst Macedonians, it is very small and we are PREDOMINANTLY of INDIGENOUS STOCK - INDIGENOUS MACEDONIANS! This can NOT compare to Bulgaria where large numbers of Turko-Mongol peoples, including the Bulgars, settled (and mixed with locals) and established a state nor with Hungarians or Turks, where they retained the language.

Like i said BEFORE, blood doesn't mean shit to us, we don't fucking care about it. It`s the ideas which connects us to each other.

Turkey is NOT Macedonia and you can not appreciate how it feels to be on the verge of being politically exterminated (disfigured) as a people/nation and thus, IMO, you should put yourself in our shoes first before making any future dismissive claims on how and why Macedonians view certain matters, at least whilst your are on MTO or other Macedonian fora.

Stop pestering me by repeating your idiotic argument about bloodline, will ya? Come up with better ones next time.

Since you quote the above post, which was a reply to Ottoman, I wonder who is pestering whom and why and I think it is the case of the pot calling someone else black!

[Ottoman]

Why and how is that related to the above question I posed to you?

It isnt related, I said it so you can maybe discover your own bloodline, not every Macedonian is pure you know, like Onur said, we Turks dont care about bloodline, we all consider ourselves as Turks just like everyone in the Ottoman Empire considered theirselves as Ottomans.

So you assume Huns had mixed ancestry (blood) after only 100 years but Kemal Attturk's family remained pure and unmixed after hundreds (you tell us when they first arrived to Macedonia!) of years of living as part of a ruling society which often practised polygamy and took wives from the "Raya" as converts?

Im just telling you facts, Kemals bloodline is Turkmen he is not mixed, the Huns who came to Europe do got mixed.
We are speaking about 1 man here not 10.000 people, for example Attila himself was a pure Turk while many of his Huns got mixed with the peoples in Europe, but still the first Huns who came to Europe were Turkic peoples from the east.

[Serres Macedonia]

It isnt related, I said it so you can maybe discover your own bloodline, not every Macedonian is pure you know, like Onur said, we Turks dont care about bloodline, we all consider ourselves as Turks just like everyone in the Ottoman Empire considered theirselves as Ottomans.



Im just telling you facts, Kemals bloodline is Turkmen he is not mixed, the Huns who came to Europe do got mixed.
We are speaking about 1 man here not 10.000 people, for example Attila himself was a pure Turk while many of his Huns got mixed with the peoples in Europe, but still the first Huns who came to Europe were Turkic peoples from the east.

Ottoman I think you contrudict yourself in relation to Kemals purity. Lets have a quick look at Kemal and Atila.


Kemal a.bmp

They look like they come from defferent tribes to me!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Serres Macedonia]

Ottoman I think you contrudict yourself in relation to Kemals purity. Lets have a quick look at Kemal and Atila.
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[ATTACH]42[/ATTACH]

They look like they come from defferent tribes to me!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry missed Attila.

Atila the hun.bmp

[gore na nitche]

Sorry missed Attila.

[ATTACH]43[/ATTACH]

Hey serres that avatar of yours looks alot like attila.