Todor Aleksandrov

[VMRO]

There's enough written and spoken by Aleksandrov's Macedonian contemporaries to show that his principles were compromised, his methods eventually became alienating, and his allegiances were questionable. This can't be brushed off simply as "a left-right divide" or "it was the times." We celebrate Delchev, Sandanski and their allies not just because of their commitment to Macedonia for the Macedonians, but for their commitment to certain principles. These two men openly spoke against Bulgarian interference, for example. Aleksandrov welcomed Bulgaria's "help". Mihajlov welcomed Hitler's help. Both the latter believed in an independent Macedonia. Both viewed themselves as Bulgars; both were willing to do whatever to stay in power. That's unquestionable.

I think there are enough unbiased sources and enough spoken by Macedonians themselves to show that Aleksandrov has a place, but we should not seek to reconfigure our historical narrative to include him as a celebrated hero -- there are many lesser known Macedonians and non-Macedonians (Todor Panica, just as one example of a non-Macedonian) who deserve more recognition than Aleksandrov for their contributions to our cause. Aleksandrov's role in reviving IMRO is important; however, it is important because it ended up being the wrong type of IMRO that Macedonians needed.

Actually, i think Todor Panica was a Macedonian... was related to the famous major Kosta Panica who was a famous general in Bulgaria which i remember from some of my readings.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

I only just watched Mario's video and I think he made some good points about how it's never so black/white and that Aleksandrov was often intentionally contradictory and ambiguous as to not alienate potential allies.

[vicsinad]

Actually, i think Todor Panica was a Macedonian... was related to the famous major Kosta Panica who was a famous general in Bulgaria which i remember from some of my readings.

He was a nephew to Kosta. Todor's family was born in central and northern Bulgaria and traced their roots to central Bulgaria from the late 1600s at least. He had a Macedonian ancestor or two (from hundreds of years ago, likely, but not confirmed), but most of his lineage consisted of people with no known ties to Macedonia; instead, his "Macedonianism" wasn't necessarily due to his ancestry but rather to his ideology -- he loved the Macedonian Cause and the Macedonian movement. He viewed anyone as being part of the original VMRO as being Macedonian, regardless of what their ancestral roots were. That's how he became Macedonian as he defined it. He said:


"Who told you that I am a Bulgarian? So do you think, as thousands think? We from VMRO are not Bulgarians! We are Macedonians! I must explain to you tomorrow these things, obligatory, as soon as you, the Communists of Greece, consider us Bulgarians! You should know that you insult us when you say Bulgarians! ... We are Macedonians, I want to understand this! We will keep Pirin Macedonia under our control, temporarily, as we have now, where Tsankov does not dare to attack us. Later, together with the CPB, you and the CPY, we will strive for autonomy for the whole of Macedonia, so that we can make our country, as our first leader Sandanski desired."

[vicsinad]

Most if not all well known historical figures good and bad, only become good and bad over time and from a certain context. This goes well beyond Macedonia's revolutionary period. If Macedonians eventually leaned towards and were incorporated into Bulgaria, our history books would talk about how evil Delcev and Sandanski were for trying to divide the Bulgarian people.

For our current Macedonian perspective Aleksandrov was not a hero.

This is a good point. Thanks for the clarification.

Sandanski was considered by many Macedonians between 1908 and 1915 as traitorous scum because he chose allegiance with the Young Turks over the Bulgarian crown. Sandanski despised Bulgarian nationalism, and many IMRO members and Macedonians during that period were pro-Bulgarian (for whatever reasons). People hated him for that, and for killing off Sarafov.

[Gocka]

This is a good point. Thanks for the clarification.

Sandanski was considered by many Macedonians between 1908 and 1915 as traitorous scum because he chose allegiance with the Young Turks over the Bulgarian crown. Sandanski despised Bulgarian nationalism, and many IMRO members and Macedonians during that period were pro-Bulgarian (for whatever reasons). People hated him for that, and for killing off Sarafov.

Sandanski is a perfect example. Of what I'm talking about.

Goce Delcev is head and shoulders above the rest because I think he was the only one who really understood everything. His quote on the world being a place of cultural competition is what it all amounts to.

To be Macedonian is a choice, to be Bulgarian or Serbian is a choice. Its always silly when different nationalities argue back and forth about who belongs to who. Delcev understood this, that no nationality just exists, its a choice. It was a competition between competing ideologies. Some ideologies won, some lost, some ideologies could coexist, some couldn't.

People get too wrapped up in the black and white of good and evil. Is he a good guy or a bad guy. Aleksandrov was a man who held his own ideology, and that ideology was at odds with what we understand to be Macedonianism. If we accept Aleksandrov as a hero, then we also have to accept his ideology that was in direct contradiction to the idea of a unique and independent Macedonian identity.

He was Macedonian, who committed acts that hurt the Macedonian cause on more than one occasion. Even if at the end of his life he had a change of heart in relation to autonomy from Bulgaria, that doesn't make him a hero. The same could be said for many Macedonians past and present.

[Karposh]

Great discussion. Really good points of view from everyone involved here.

[vicsinad]

Sandanski is a perfect example. Of what I'm talking about.

Goce Delcev is head and shoulders above the rest because I think he was the only one who really understood everything. His quote on the world being a place of cultural competition is what it all amounts to.

To be Macedonian is a choice, to be Bulgarian or Serbian is a choice. Its always silly when different nationalities argue back and forth about who belongs to who. Delcev understood this, that no nationality just exists, its a choice. It was a competition between competing ideologies. Some ideologies won, some lost, some ideologies could coexist, some couldn't.

People get too wrapped up in the black and white of good and evil. Is he a good guy or a bad guy. Aleksandrov was a man who held his own ideology, and that ideology was at odds with what we understand to be Macedonianism. If we accept Aleksandrov as a hero, then we also have to accept his ideology that was in direct contradiction to the idea of a unique and independent Macedonian identity.

He was Macedonian, who committed acts that hurt the Macedonian cause on more than one occasion. Even if at the end of his life he had a change of heart in relation to autonomy from Bulgaria, that doesn't make him a hero. The same could be said for many Macedonians past and present.

Very good points.

[Carlin]

Vicsinad, from one of your earlier posts:

"The MPO further claimed that Pirinsky was not a progressive idealist but a paid communist agent working with left-wing immigrants to confuse the Slavic speaking populations. MPO then revealed Pirinsky’s contacts with Yugoslav, Bulgarian and Soviet communist party members."

MPO revealing Pirinsky's contacts with various communist party members is this legit? What sort of proof did they have?

[vicsinad]

Vicsinad, from one of your earlier posts:

"The MPO further claimed that Pirinsky was not a progressive idealist but a paid communist agent working with left-wing immigrants to confuse the Slavic speaking populations. MPO then revealed Pirinsky’s contacts with Yugoslav, Bulgarian and Soviet communist party members."

MPO revealing Pirinsky's contacts with various communist party members is this legit? What sort of proof did they have?

Pirinsky was indeed paid from money raised to work as the leader of MPL and American Slav Congress, but there was no evidence (that I've seen) that he was paid by communist officials. Those are just MPO claims (and they can be found in Chris Kostov's "Contested Ethnic Identity" thesis, in which he cites Bulgarian nationalist Konstantin Tzarnushanov). However, the MPO did reveal Pirinsky's contacts by highlighting his relationships with Georgi Dimitrov and Dimitar Vlahov, for example. Being that these men were high ranking communists who were also (at different times) promoting a separate Macedonian identity, it made sense that Pirinsky would be in contact with them.

I did a FOIA request of the FBI for all their files on Pirinsky, and this is where I got much of my information about MPO informants and what they revealed to the FBI. Also, raids on Pirinsky's and MPL's home and place of business revealed many books, documents, letters and correspondences between Pirinsky and communist leaders mentioned above; however, nothing really showed any intent by Pirinsky to bring communism to the US -- it was mostly related to Balkan affairs. The MPO also pointed to MPL newspapers as evidence of Pirinsky's communist ties (the MPL's newspapers would often print messages and articles from Soviet, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Yugoslav communist leaders).

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Poet Hristo Smirnenski saw Aleksandrov, Protogerov and their followers as "fake autonomists" and "quasi-patriots" who behind them stood the lingering shadow of the Bulgarian bourgeoisie.

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE_%D0%A1%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8

[VMRO]

Poet Hristo Smirnenski saw Aleksandrov, Protogerov and their followers as "fake autonomists" and "quasi-patriots" who behind them stood the lingering shadow of the Bulgarian bourgeoisie.

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5...81%D0%BA%D0%B8

It is hard to work out what is true and what is not in that period, basically all the Macedonians who became communist saw Aleksandrov in a negative light and Aleksandrov did the same with respect to communists.

VMRO in that period was anti communist so one way to discredit your opponent is to talk negative.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

VMRO any update on that evidence of the links between MPO and Aleksandrov? Also why do you believe it was the Federalists who screwed up the May Manifesto?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Letter from Aleksandrov to Mihail Čakov speaking of an independent Macedonia

[Liberator of Makedonija]

In their party program, OMO Ilinden - Pirin throw Aleksandrov into the same basket as Mihajlov:

http://omoilindenpirin.org/documents/program_e.php

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Anyone know anything about Aleksandrov's actions during the First World War whilst he was serving in the Bulgarian army?