Grigor Prličev (1830 - 1893), Macedonian Literary Activist

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3820

    Grigor Prličev (1830 - 1893), Macedonian Literary Activist



    page 54

    page 55

    page 56

    page 57

    page 58

    page 59

    page 60

    page 61

    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    #2
    The language is very colonial ...

    'A Slav...'

    'Slav language ...'

    possibly 'possessed ... a Bulgarian national consciounce' before there was ever a Bulgarian nation, and before Bulgarian national identity had a chance to in fact form itself.

    Part of the '...Bulgarian anti-Greek movement of the 1860's and 1870's...'. What a blatant anchronism that is. There were no Bulgarian political units operating anywhere inside Macedonia before 1870.

    Nikolova also cites and quotes the biographer and commentator, Kiril Shopakov. If he was a Bulgarian, then he was likely to misrepresent Prlichev as a 'Bulgarian national'. This is given away by his words. He wrote:

    The autobiography is an important work in which the main customs and traditions of the three main populations of Macedonia ... and their fight for predominance are depicted with simplicity.
    Who could he be referring too here? Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians ?

    Author wrote:

    Prlichev might have deveoped a Macedonian identity ... but there are no clear indications that this in fact happened
    . I wonder just what 'measure' this author needs to establish or refute his Macedonian nationality?

    There is alot of mischief in this piece and in the blind effort to extricate Prlichev from the nationalisms of governments foriegn to Macedonian territory, there is also an equal effort to extricate him from his ethnic roots - which were Macedonian.
    Last edited by Pelister; 09-27-2010, 10:45 PM.

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #3
      It was an interesting set of opinions that were fundamentally erroneous because the author could not really fathom a Macedonian nationality or ethnicity. When (in the author's opinion) he could not be a Greek or a Bulgarian ... he could not be a Macedonian???

      He made an interesting point about the pre-18th century national consciousness which did not exist. Yet wanted to slot Prlicev into either a Bulgarian or Greek one no matter how new these identities must have been.

      I think he defined a Macedonian without even knowing it.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        #4
        W in the first part of the article gligor is srtrugling to come to terms as what his identity is.
        Whatever he came to say bulgarian,he was not accepted as such not even of greek identity.Just proves at the time people had no national consciousness.Yes in all this he does define that without being aware that he is macedonian.
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

        Comment

        • thessalo-niki
          Banned
          • Jun 2010
          • 191

          #5
          The name he used in Greece was Grigorios Stavridis. This is a small part of his poem:

          Παρά τον νέκυν τού Κοσμά βαρυπενθής ο ίππος
          εφρύαττεν αιμοσταγής
          και κλίνων προς τον ήρωα την χαίτην, βαρυλύπως,
          τα νώτα έκρουε της γης.

          Με βήμα τρέμον εξορμά η μήτηρ κ’ αμφιβάλλει
          αλλ’ εις τον πάνδημον κλαυθμόν
          εμάντευσε την συμφοράν, και τ’ όναρ ανεκάλει...
          Βαρύν αφήκε βρυχηθμόν

          ως πρωτοτόκος λέαινα, ο σκύμνος ης ηρπάγη
          υπό θρασέων θηρευτών...
          ______________________________________
          Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            #6
            Originally posted by thessalo-niki View Post
            The name he used in Greece was Grigorios Stavridis.
            Do you have any other examples of obvious non-Greeks using Greek names?
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • GStojanov
              Junior Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 69

              #7
              The article is correct in assessing the pre-national sentiment of the Balkans prior to the mid-19 century. The author, though, misses the Macedonian National Movement. Prlicev was one of its proponents. In one of his speaches he addressed his students: You proud Macedonians, descendents of Alexander and Aristotle... Then he concluded his speach with: A country that gave birth to sons of that magnitude, our dear Macedonia, will give birth to new titans to liberate her.

              Bulgarians rejected him because he deliberately refused to use the standard Bulgarian (more or less defined by the mid-1860-ties) and he was trying to create a standard language based on the Macedonian phonology (this article mentiones this). Greeks rejected him because he refused to fully assimilate into a Greek. Even from his poem Serdarot (Armatolos) it is obvious that all of his characters that he has simpathy for are Macedonians (Kuzman, Neda, Rade...), while the vilans are the Albanian Ghegs.

              Here is his best poem Serdarot translated in Macedonian:



              Thesaloniki, if you have a bigger excerpt of his original greek version, please either upload it in mk.wikibooks.org, or post it here, and I will upload it. (What you already posted, is it the begining of the poem? If you don't know, can you roughly translate it, and I will locate it.)

              Comment

              • thessalo-niki
                Banned
                • Jun 2010
                • 191

                #8
                It's this part:
                Крај трупот Кузманов со тага коњот 'ржи;
                и уште беше тој во крв;
                ја копка земјата и лад со гривата му држи
                на стопанот и другар прв.
                И мајката истрчува со стапка трепет полна
                се двоуми, но сал за миг . . .
                По плачот општ се сети дека веста беше болна
                и танок таа пушти крик,
                да, како лавица, што дрско ловците ја гонат
                ________________________________________________
                Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

                Comment

                • GStojanov
                  Junior Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 69

                  #9
                  Thessaloniki,

                  I didn't know that you can read and understand Macedonian. Thank you for recognizing the passage.

                  Now is this transcription that you posted the language that Prlicev used (some form of archaic/classical) or a translation to the modern Greek?

                  Do you, but any chance, have the begining of the poem, which is by far the most popular in Macedonia. (It employs a figure of speach named slavonic antithesis).

                  Comment

                  • thessalo-niki
                    Banned
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 191

                    #10
                    Originally posted by GStojanov View Post
                    Thessaloniki,

                    I didn't know that you can read and understand Macedonian. Thank you for recognizing the passage.
                    I can't. I used Google Translation (as much as it could do anything)
                    Originally posted by GStojanov View Post
                    Now is this transcription that you posted the language that Prlicev used (some form of archaic/classical) or a translation to the modern Greek?
                    It's the original. This language is described as purified/katharevousa. The overall style is of Athens Romatic school, the one that was "in war" with the School of Ionian Islands. It seems they lost this war and are not now remembered (as it is also reflected here)

                    Originally posted by GStojanov View Post
                    Do you, but any chance, have the begining of the poem, which is by far the most popular in Macedonia. (It employs a figure of speach named slavonic antithesis).
                    You have to go here:

                    Go to Download Document (at the bottom of the page)
                    Type the two words you see, and a pdf file will open
                    (There's also an interesting introduction by the author)
                    _________________________________
                    Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul
                    Last edited by thessalo-niki; 09-28-2010, 03:21 PM.

                    Comment

                    • TrueMacedonian
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 3820

                      #11
                      Thanks for your opinions guys. I would like to give a few small observations to what Raymond Detrez brings up in his article.

                      1) The poem Armatole used "Slav" names for the Albanians but according to Prlicev the Albanians were nothing else but "Greeks". This could mean 2 things (but one, in my opinion, which is fairly obvious). First and foremost the term during Prlicev's time was nothing more than a religious term meaning "christian" as Detrez himself notes on page 59. Second thing is if the Albanians "were nothing else but Greeks", according to Prlicev, then we can honestly say, historically knowing the truth of modern greece, the Greeks were nothing else but Albanian. Prlicev was most likely basing his poem of facts that we know today.

                      2) In 1885, during a celebration of Cyril and Methodius in Solun, Prlicev thanked the Bulgarian teachers there for having "come from their fatherland" (Principality of Bulgaria) to "our fatherland" (Macedonia under the Ottoman's). This is a stab in the Bulgarian's heart in my opinion seeing as this is nothing more than a Macedonian from Macedonia thanking Bulgarians from Bulgaria for attending the celebrations.

                      3) Prlicev found it difficult to use the "dialect" or rather language of Bulgaria. He had negative feelings in Bulgaria and made it a point to reflect this attitude in a letter to Konstantin Jirecek the Czech historian and diplomat. Bulgarians despised Prlicev's translations and works because they said he "had no command of Bulgarian". (see page 57)

                      4) Prlicev was not accepted as a "hellene" by many of the new greeks and he felt "a stranger for the society he wanted to be a part of" according to Detrez. The racism of the new greeks against Prlicev shows another example of terminologies that became modern ethnicities. He was called a "Bulgarian" to which Prlicev wrote that he "felt contempt". The word "Bulgarian" in modern greece was nothing more than an insult.

                      5) He wrote "Grigor Prlicev, Killed by the Bulgarians".

                      6) Detrez mentions two important facets in communities within Macedonia and within the Balkans. Terms like "Greek", "Bulgarian", "Vlach", etc. were social (or social-labor) terms meant to denote a profession. As he notes (and as we already know) a "Greek" was a "city dweller", a "Vlach" a shephard, a "Bulgarian" a peasant or farmer, etc. Terms like the ones mentioned above also denoted religious affiliation.

                      Detrez stops short in this article. I think he missed his opportunity to show exactly what Prlicev's ultimate development was and why he felt like a stranger in "Greece and Bulgaria". One flaw in Detrez's article is the fact that he bases his opinion on a Bulgarian historian (Hristo Gandev) and ultimately contradicts his article to what Prlicev himself stated. On page 58 Detrez states that Prlicev identified himself only with "the inhabitants of Ohrid and its surroundings" towards the end of his life. He quotes the "pre-national mental make-up" of Hristo Gandev to prove his own point. However, as I already mentioned in point 2 above, Detrez makes mention of Prlicev thanking Bulgarian teachers who came "from their fatherland" (Bulgarian principality) to "OUR FATHERLAND" (Macedonia under the Ottoman's)in 1885 which was not far towards the end of Prlicev's life. So if you, the reader, reads page 55 and then page 58 you will note the contradiction.
                      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                      Comment

                      • GStojanov
                        Junior Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 69

                        #12
                        Thank you Thessaloniki. I downloaded the book.

                        Comment

                        • Daskalot
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 4345

                          #13
                          Originally posted by thessalo-niki View Post
                          The name he used in Greece was Grigorios Stavridis. This is a small part of his poem:

                          Παρά τον νέκυν τού Κοσμά βαρυπενθής ο ίππος
                          εφρύαττεν αιμοσταγής
                          και κλίνων προς τον ήρωα την χαίτην, βαρυλύπως,
                          τα νώτα έκρουε της γης.

                          Με βήμα τρέμον εξορμά η μήτηρ κ αμφιβάλλει
                          αλλ εις τον πάνδημον κλαυθμόν
                          εμάντευσε την συμφοράν, και τ όναρ ανεκάλει...
                          Βαρύν αφήκε βρυχηθμόν

                          ως πρωτοτόκος λέαινα, ο σκύμνος ης ηρπάγη
                          υπό θρασέων θηρευτών...
                          So this would make him Greek right?
                          Macedonian Truth Organisation

                          Comment

                          • TrueMacedonian
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 3820

                            #14
                            Thessaloniki what do you think about Prlicev's assertion that Albanians "were nothing else but Greeks"?
                            Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                            Comment

                            • thessalo-niki
                              Banned
                              • Jun 2010
                              • 191

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                              So this would make him Greek right?
                              His early poetry is Greek. His opinions sound like Greek nationalism, but I couldn't easily recognize the political divisions of 1850s or 1860s.
                              In a letter of his, against Orphanidis, who challenged his Greekness, he's saying (that's in 1860):

                              "Λέγεις ότι είμαι Βούλγαρος! Μέγα θαύμα!!! Χειροκροτήσατε Κύριοι!!! Ναι, κ. Καθηγητά... αλλ' επί δεκαπέντε έτη διετέλεσα αείποτε υπηρετών την Ελλάδα, εν ω συ νέος περιήρχεσο τας ρύμας των Αθηνών, σκάνδαλον της κοινωνίας, διέδωκα την Ελληνικήν Γλώσσαν εις μέρη όπου ήτον πάντη άγνωστος, και εμόρφωσα δι' αυτής υπέρ τους χιλίους νέους, εν ω συ νέος εμόρφωνες... Ναι, είμαι Βούλγαρος, αλλ' έχω πολύ Ελληνικώτερα τα αισθήματα και την καρδίαν παρά σε τον υβριστήν... Ναι, είμαι Βούλγαρος και Σκύθης μάλιστα εάν θέλης. Αλλ' αυτός ο Σκύθης, μόλις πρώτην φοράν εμφανισθείς εις ποιητικόν αγώνα, κατέβαλεν άνευ κόπου σε τον παλαιόν ποιητήν..."

                              (my, not very good, translation)

                              "You say I'm Bulgarian! Great miracle!!! Applaud Gentlemen!!! Yes, Mr Professor... but for 15 years I kept non-stop serving Greece, while you as a youth were walking the slip-roads of Athens, a scandal of society, I disseminated Greek language in places it was totally unknown and educated through it more than thousand young men, while you as a young man educated...Yes, I'm a Bulgarian, but I have a heart and feelings that are more Greek than you the insulter... Yes, I'm Bulgarian and Scythian also, if you like. But this Scythian, when appeared for the very first time in a poetry contest, easily defeated you the old poet..."

                              Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                              Thessaloniki what do you think about Prlicev's assertion that Albanians "were nothing else but Greeks"?
                              I don't know anything about his assertions. Do you mean I should read the poem? Are they in the poem?
                              __________________________________
                              Odysseas Elytis - Our name is sour soul
                              Last edited by thessalo-niki; 09-30-2010, 12:07 AM. Reason: Added comments to your questions

                              Comment

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