Brailsford: Macedonia: Its' Races and their Future (1906)

[Sovius]

Like which human rights?

Actually their problem is that they are not discriminated.

Alter is a low-level private channel, so is this show. "Invisible World" examines invisible or doubtful things: UFOs, ghosts, reincarnation, the end of the world in 2012, the... Macedonian minority...

You are hopeless.

The 1990's—Fear of Greek Authorities and State Harassment Greece is probably the only member of the OSCE which has not granted any freedoms and human rights to its diverse nationalities. Apart from the Muslim Turkish minority in Western Thrace, other ethnic minorities in Greece such as the Macedonians cannot organize their own cultural associations, schools and religious institutions. Greece is probably the only member of the OSCE which does not permit the return of political refugees and others whose citizenship has been arbitrarily revoked without due process. The present population of the Macedonian districts in Northern Greece is approximately 2 millions. Approximately 1 millions are of direct Macedonian descent. After nearly a century of systematic effort to denationalize the Macedonians, many have succumbed and developed a Greek consciousness and refer to themselves as Greeks or Greek Macedonians. The Greek state has always portrayed the Greek identity as being more cultured and superior. The Macedonian identity has always been portrayed as an uncivilized, barbaric and dirty presence within a pure Greek space. The psychological aim is to make people abandon using the Macedonian language. It has gotten to the point where one is looked down upon for speaking Macedonian. The language is referred to as the “local idiom.” It is interesting to note that the Macedonian language is recognized internationally, but it is forbidden in Greece. After three generations of policies of denationalization by the Greek state the Macedonian consciousness among the population has been badly damaged to the point where those who retain their Macedonian consciousness fear to declare it openly. This fear is difficult to comprehend by those who grew up in free and open societies. You have to experience it to understand it. Among the older generation of Macedonians the fear is pervasive and ingrained. It is as if the person is always on guard for his actions and words for fear that he will be betrayed or heard by Greek authorities. When one Macedonian was pressed further on this issue he blurted out in exasperation, “It (fear) has gotten into the genes!”

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/419.html

[thessalo-niki]

Please clarify the highlighted parts Mr. Nikki.
Because they go hand in hand you see.

Are you implying the right for self-determination? Or something else? Individuals or groups (e.g. Rainbow Party) DO self-identify. Yet, don’t expect the state to admit this identification, not to mention the rest of the people. Under the arguments you are aware of, from the name conflict, court decisions have stopped people to issue a Club named e.g. “Macedonian Joint” (this story has probably been detailed in other threads). This problem is exactly the same with the Muslims of Thrace (who often identify as Turks).

Like the human right to be educated in one's own Macedonian mother tongue. Like the human right for one to identify with the rest of their Macedonian kinsmen. Deny it once more, play stupid one more time you little maggot, because it seems that every time you make a comment like this, you never respond or you disappear into a dust of garbage. I will send you there myself this time.

Public schools in other languages are provided only for Muslims of Thrace (in Turkish) based on Lausanne Treaty. The first realistic approach would be for someone to initiate a private school, or some afternoon classes (the one Greeks call frontistiria), and see if there's any response. A second problem might come in defining and naming the language (I 'm not sure what the legal implications and objections would be). It would probably be called SlavoMacedonian or Makedonski (in Cyrillic)(not realy sure).
My advice is that people should insist, use European Courts (since the problem will probably be arbitrary and semi-political court decisions) and also be flexible. E.g. if in Thrace the do not allow them to have a "Union of Turks of Thrace", they should use some humour and name it "Friends of Turkish Literature" or "Kemal Ataturk". The main problem is that these are political issues and there are no people (in Greece) behind these requests (only Rainbow Party). Yet, similar issues will be discussed in near future because of immigrants. There was a recent debated case where teachers gave volunteering classes e.g. in Albanian, at public schools, during Saturdays.
A second advice is that you shouldn’t expect much. You are in 0 and you want to go 100. Ask if you can go to 5 (which I doubt). Are there many Macedonian parents who would send their kids to learn the language (instead of the usual ballet or karate lessons)? Do you think there is such a trend? Is anyone stopping such a frontistirioum? Are there any already? (Any info appreciated).
"Identifying with the rest of their Macedonian kinsmen" as vaguely put, is also legal and allowed, but, depending on what you mean, may be disapproved or criticised. Let's just say, that the timing is the worst ever, since our countries are now some sort of enemies. I have to note that Rainbow Party has been overcautious about that. They keep some distance and often emphasize (under complicated arguments) that they are an ethnic minority, not the minority of a foreign country in Greece (or something like that). In Greece, many persons or activities will often be slurred as filoskopiani (i.e. pro-Skopjans), yet from your POV I don’t know if that’s good or bad.

You are hopeless.

I was teasing you, but I wasn't joking. This is indeed the repertoire of “Invisible World”. As for the quote: (a) See who the author is, (b) Notice the sentence after the one you put in bold.
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Odysseas Elytis – Our name is our soul

[thessalo-niki]

Not surprisingly, the Bulgarians knew who they were and so did the Macedonians.

That cover page doesn't help this argument. It seems that the few documents of Macedonian language call it Bulgarian.

It is unnatural to find this document that far away from its intended audience. Why don't you think they would hunt down and burn copies? The Greeks hunted down and wanted to burn (actually ... to kill) my Great Grandfather who delivered sermons in Macedonian. I am sure books were not spared from this process. MY Great Grandfather was lucky I suppose, his fellow villagers threatened to kill the maggots that came to execute him and he was allowed time to leave Greece strangely enough. I guess books never received the same treatment.

First of all, as I explained in previous post, do not be sure it's unnatural. Do you know where Euripides works were found? As for your great-grandfather I would love to know more including names, years, places, conditions, any details you don't have a problem to reveal.

You are indeed correct, the weird progressive Christian effort is called Hellenism and trying to tie that in with Christianity.

(In case you're not ironic). No, it's not that. Since the key is the translation in vernacular (blasphemous) language and the publisher is Bulgarian (not Greek) I was thinking of an early progressive Christian socialist approach.

The modern Macedonian language is much closer to old Macedonian than modern Greek is to the ancient Hellenic languages. In fact it did not even change over the last 500 years. We are still waiting for similar proof of how the Greek language changed in Macedonia over the last 500 years. Can you help us? Find some Greek language in Macedonia from the 16th century and let us know what has changed since then.

By 16th Century, the only cultural centre of Macedonia was Thessaloniki (in 17th Century other cities popped out). The main Greek authors of Macedonia were Damascenos Stouditis, Demetrios of Thessaloniki, and Joseph of Thessaloniki. The first one wrote the book Treasure (one of the most popular of the century). I couldn't find that on-line (it's here http://84.205.233.134/library/view_m...oks.php?id=240, but it's not available, or something doesn't work), but there’s another book of his (Μερική Διάγνωσις Εκ Των Παλαιών Φιλοσόφων Περί Φύσης).

http://www.lib.uoa.gr/hellinomnimon/0709011148290000/main.htm

Greek language of 15th or 16th Century (as can be seen in the above text with the unbearable calligraphic fonts and Venetian typos) is practically the same as today (as much as Shakespeare to Modern English). The Greek theatre plays of that time are still played and enjoyed without needing translation.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Sovius]

I was teasing you, but I wasn't joking. This is indeed the repertoire of “Invisible World”. As for the quote: (a) See who the author is, (b) Notice the sentence after the one you put in bold.

OK, so with comment (a) we’ve established that you’ve been conditioned to not trust the people your state is in the process of victimizing. Why do you want me to “See who the author is”? What are you hoping my reaction will be once I look again and see the same Macedonian cultural association listed as the presenter as the last time I opened the file? Are you implying that people who have suffered greatly at the hands of another nation aren’t capable of conveying the truth honestly? Are they fudging their facts? If so, how and what proof would you like to offer to substantiate this claim I’m assuming you’re making? Why did you post this comment and what were you hoping to gain?

Regarding comment (b):


Reference:

After nearly a century of systematic effort to denationalize the Macedonians, many have succumbed and developed a Greek consciousness and refer to themselves as Greeks or Greek Macedonians.


The totalitarian assimilation practices of the nation of Greece are well documented. Are you suggesting that being tortured and bullied into declaring that you’re something you’re not somehow makes you that which you are not? How important then are population statistics coming out of Greece then, if we regroup this sentence with the first one? What does this say about this declaration of yours that you are a Greek? Why is it important to you that I focus on this sentence and not the ones that follow it? You seem to be confident that I’m going to have some kind of epiphany or something. In what way were you hoping my perspective would change by re-reading this sentence?

[Risto the Great]

By 16th Century, the only cultural centre of Macedonia was Thessaloniki

I am sure you might have forgotten Ohrid here. You should go there one day.

Damascenos Stouditis, 16th century?
Demetrios of Thessaloniki, 4th century?
Joseph of Thessaloniki 19th century ?

Greek language of 15th or 16th Century (as can be seen in the above text with the unbearable calligraphic fonts and Venetian typos) is practically the same as today (as much as Shakespeare to Modern English). The Greek theatre plays of that time are still played and enjoyed without needing translation.

Do you have any examples from Macedonia?

Do we have anything about them writing in in the local vernacular? An author comes to mind that wrote in his vernacular in the 19th century. He wrote phonetically and captivated the local Greeks with his insights and use of contemporary language (Turkish imperfections and all). That is the kind of thing I am looking for from any Greek found in Macedonia.

My great Grandfather came from the village Vrbeni. He was the village priest. Look him up if you wish. His son still lives there (part time). He (the son) was locked in jail for being a Macedonian and somehow managed to escape death by signing a document that he would never be allowed to practice his medical profession and that his highest status in modern Greece was to be no more than a "shopkeeper". He is a good Greek now .... go figure. Spends the rest of his time in Toronto living a lie.

[thessalo-niki]

I am sure you might have forgotten Ohrid here. You should go there one day.

Damascenos Stouditis, 16th century?
Demetrios of Thessaloniki, 4th century?
Joseph of Thessaloniki 19th century?

Do you have any examples from Macedonia?

I don’t know anything about Ohrid of 16th Century. Perhaps it was not mentioned in the sources I checked. The two first are from 16th Century. Joseph is more 15th-16th Century or even solely 15th Century. (That was MY mistake). They shouldn’t be confused with Saint Demetrios (4th Century) or the Metropolitan of Thessaloniki Joseph (hanged by Turks in 1821).
Damascenos Stouditis was born in Thessaloniki (as Demetrios or Dionysios), studied in Constantinople, then served as a bishop of Liti & Rendeni/ Rentina (approximately the wide rural area of present-day Thessaloniki Nomos), and, near the end of his life, in Aetolia.

Do we have anything about them writing in in the local vernacular? An author comes to mind that wrote in his vernacular in the 19th century. He wrote phonetically and captivated the local Greeks with his insights and use of contemporary language (Turkish imperfections and all). That is the kind of thing I am looking for from any Greek found in Macedonia.

Phonetically!?! Which one do you refer to?
In 16th Century, the first (and only) Greek printery was in Venice. Thessaloniki had only a Jewish one. Constantinople didn’t have any yet. It is believed the Greek publishers of Venice were smoothing local idioms so that their books had a wider audience among Greeks. That also played a role in establishing a new stabilised common language, closer to the present-day New Greek we’re familiar with. Some of their hits are of low quality and from unknown authors, others are written by renowned intellectuals of the time. While Damascenos Stouditis also wrote in Homeric, ancient and archaic language, the book I submitted (commonly known as Physiologion) an interesting, often silly, alphabetic description of animals, seems to be in simple, common language of 16th Century. His books (especially Treasure) were… the religious best sellers for the following 3 centuries.
I don’t know if it has local colours (even if it did, I wouldn’t be able to recognize them). Turkish influence is clear in all literature since 15th Century (including him) and it’s not considered imperfection; that would probably describe grammatical, syntax and spelling errors. That is mostly recorded in demotic songs, whenever the text has survived from 16th century.

“His references to Plato, Homer, Aelian, Oppian, Aristophanes, and Herodotus indicate D.S.’s familiarity with ancient literature and its genres. Another indication of D.S.’s acquaintance with ancient Greek literature is his usage of the classical Attic dialect. D.S. also composed works in the spoken idiom, a tendency that was not generally favored at the time. His scholarship and command of ancient as well spoken Greek is impeccable and there are indications that he also knew Turkish, as he employed, in Hellenized form, Turkish words in his text.”

http://www.ottomanhistorians.com/database/pdf/damaskenos_en.pdf

My great Grandfather came from the village Vrbeni. He was the village priest. Look him up if you wish. His son still lives there (part time). He (the son) was locked in jail for being a Macedonian and somehow managed to escape death by signing a document that he would never be allowed to practice his medical profession and that his highest status in modern Greece was to be no more than a "shopkeeper". He is a good Greek now .... go figure. Spends the rest of his time in Toronto living a lie.

Was your great-grandfather with the Exarchate? Unless you tell me more, I speculate your grandfather’s brother was a communist (not just… a poor Macedonian). If he was arrested armed at the last stage of Civil War (after 1946), he obviously signed a dilosis, where he denounced communism and promised to be a good lawful citizen; thus, he avoided execution, didn’t become a martyr, but wouldn’t exactly get rid of the stigma. Maybe he wasn’t allowed to complete his studies or they wouldn’t provide him the infamous “testimonial of social morals” (no idea how to translate it in English) that was necessary for many licenses.
At least Vrbeni/ Xyno Nero is still rumoured (in various websites) to have a non-Greek ethnic-Macedonian conscience.
By coincidence, my grandfather’s brother was also a communist (but not an ethnic-Macedonian). His death was… half-heroic. A police officer somehow learned that he was listening to the illegal communist broadcast with some of his comrades. He visited him at home and told him that in the next morning he would have to go to the police station and give in some of his comrades. During the night, the poor guy died of his agony.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Daskalot]

By coincidence, my grandfather’s brother was also a communist (but not an ethnic-Macedonian). His death was… half-heroic.

Please explain to us why you used an hyphen between ethnic and Macedonian? Why have you made the Macedonian ethnos into a complex name with the designator "ethnic" compounded to it?

Your answer will be of grave importance to your existence on this forum.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Notice the lack of "ethnic" prefixes infront of the word 'Greek'?

Daskale, I have warned this idiot repeatedly about his use of the unnecessary "ethnic" prefix, he stopped it for a while, and now he started it again. I told him that he would be banned for this, and now he has been banned for trying to de-nationalise the Macedonian identity with his perpetual racism and idiocy. The maggot wouldn't even give Macedonians the courtesy by placing a prefix infront of the names of other nations.

Macedonians are Macedonians - period.

[Bill77]

Please explain to us why you used an hyphen between ethnic and Macedonian? Why have you made the Macedonian ethnos into a complex name with the designator "ethnic" compounded to it?

Your answer will be of grave importance to your existence on this forum.

Also, he can explain why he still labels all Macedonians back then as communists. That was propaganda used back then by the Fascist authorities in order for the world to turn a blind eye on the atrocities Greece committed towards the Macedonians. Its insulting that he is still spreading the same fascist lie as if he is trying to justify the treatment towards our relatives during those times. A grandfather of mine (my avatar) was decapitated after being set up and captured. He was then paraded through his village when a Greek General stood above his head and mocked him by saying "Did we Fear this young kid taking Macedonia". The general knew he did not fight for communism, but independent Macedonia. So by thessa calling my grandfather a communist and taking away the reason what he died for, is insulting.

[Makedonetz]

Thessal-niki yebeje tvoja grcia budal!


good riddins!

[George S.]

What a bloody idiot we all gave him the time of day respecting his ethnicity.When all along the bastard hated our guts & showed a total disrespect.Putting prefixes on names & suffixes is nothing new Greece has allways showed a total disrespect to macedonians.The big question will they learn from their past errors.No because they are too dumb they can't figure the wood from the trees.

[Makedonetz]

George the funny part is this idiot wasn't even greek! some Romoia sheep herder