Brailsford: Macedonia: Its' Races and their Future (1906)

[thessalo-niki]

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/hb/index.html

An interesting read. At first I thought he's slightly pro-Bulgarian, then I read some other parts. He seems to have a good word and many bad ones for everyone in Macedonia. That's good!
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Risto the Great]

It is an interesting read but I would like to know what parts you fully agree with and what parts you entirely refute.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thessaloniki, this isn't a book club where you create a thread just to leave one-line comments. We are aware of the book, if there is something specific you want to raise then do it, otherwise don't pollute the forums with irrelevance.

Or are you waiting for one of us? Brailsford may be pro-bulgar and not sympathetic to Macedonian concerns, but he is of little value to a Greek. In fact, the things he says about Greeks goes a long way to proving what sort of animals you intruders were in Macedonia, and how irrelevant you were as a local population.

[TrueMacedonian]

It is an interesting read but I would like to know what parts you fully agree with and what parts you entirely refute.

Fat chance getting a straight answer from this imposter hellene RTG.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Well, if he doesn't produce some straight answers on this thread it will be his last one.

[Dejan]

I like SOM's approach - either get to the point, or get out

[Daskalot]

Thessa please provide the content asked for or be prepared for a ban.

[thessalo-niki]

It is an interesting read but I would like to know what parts you fully agree with and what parts you entirely refute.

To start with, it’s in an easy to read format (unlike the pdf files or print-screens that most users usually submit). That “fully agree with or entirely refute” philosophy is more suitable for a propagandist. Any propagandist can find excellent extracts but that would misjudge the book and the author. Yes, he seems like a Bulgarian sympathiser, but not a dishonest one or a person with an agenda. Whoever wants to read it (whether Greek, Turk, Albanian, Bulgarian, Vlach, etc) should be warned and be prepared for hot n’ cold showers.
I like third parties and outsiders (they offer some neutrality). Maybe the weakest part are the assumptions on history evolution; the best parts are his personal estimations; how he sees each ethnicity; you may say it’s a little cliché (the description of the Greek, the description of the Jew) but it’s damn interesting (e.g. bashing Greeks). Then again, my great-grandparents in 1906 were indeed merchants.

Thessaloniki, this isn't a book club where you create a thread just to leave one-line comments. We are aware of the book, if there is something specific you want to raise then do it, otherwise don't pollute the forums with irrelevance.

No, I wouldn’t call it irrelevant. It’s very relevant (all of it). The reader may start from the chapters he’s more interested.

Or are you waiting for one of us? Brailsford may be pro-bulgar and not sympathetic to Macedonian concerns, but he is of little value to a Greek. In fact, the things he says about Greeks goes a long way to proving what sort of animals you intruders were in Macedonia, and how irrelevant you were as a local population.

Well, he’s not that one-sided. He mostly speaks about the role of Church and paints Greeks as (city) animals. There are unexpected lines here and there, e.g. he believes the Greeks can’t sing!!! What?
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Onur]

Whoever wants to read it (whether Greek, Turk, Albanian, Bulgarian, Vlach, etc) should be warned and be prepared for hot n’ cold showers.

I suggest you and everyone to be very skeptical about these Ottoman Empire memoirs of 19-20th century. Nearly all of them written just for propaganda with political aims. Authors are either pro-Bulgar(Russian interests) or pro-Greek(British interests) and highly biased. Also some of them wasn't even came to Turkey, so it all lies. I read 10-15 memoirs like that and i personally spotted several inconsistencies and lies in 2-3 of them, like simple location and time differences. It`s very well known that some orientalists of 19th century wrote their Ottoman Empire memoirs in London/Paris without stepping out from their homes.

[Makedonetz]

What kind of dribble is this Thessa- these memoirs depict us macedonians as were some kind of fucking cave men walking the cobble stone streets of our own lands! Shove this info up your Fustenalla!

[thessalo-niki]

I suggest you and everyone to be very skeptical about these Ottoman Empire memoirs of 19-20th century. Nearly all of them written just for propaganda with political aims. Authors are either pro-Bulgar(Russian interests) or pro-Greek(British interests) and highly biased. Also some of them wasn't even came to Turkey, so it all lies. I read 10-15 memoirs like that and i personally spotted several inconsistencies and lies in 2-3 of them, like simple location and time differences. It`s very well known that some orientalists of 19th century wrote their Ottoman Empire memoirs in London/Paris without stepping out from their homes.

Onur, this isn't the case.

What kind of dribble is this Thessa- these memoirs depict us macedonians as were some kind of fucking cave men walking the cobble stone streets of our own lands! Shove this info up your Fustenalla!

Well, he believes the same for Greeks (so we should all get over it). Why not admit that, comparing to Brits, we were cave-men, primitive, backwards, savages. Yet, he's not only like that.
How would YOU describe e.g, Afghani politics, if you could?
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[slovenec zrinski]

"(whether Greek, Turk, Albanian, Bulgarian, Vlach, etc)"

Hm...I wonder who the etc are? "The unmentionables"?

[Daskalot]

"(whether Greek, Turk, Albanian, Bulgarian, Vlach, etc)"

Hm...I wonder who the etc are? "The unmentionables"?

So do I, you took the time to mention everyone else Thessa, why did you leave us Macedonians out of the picture?

[Onur]

Well, he believes the same for Greeks(so we should all get over it). Why not admit that, comparing to Brits, we were cave-men, primitive, backwards, savages.

Noes, thats biased point of view. Anyone could point a million cavemen at 19th century England too. Hell, i saw 100s British, German cavemen of 21th century as a tourist in Turkey. I reserve the USA-NATO soldiers as being the most primitive ones tough

I admit that the western world was wealthier than eastern world after 18th century but i cant accept stuff like that. These are prejudices and a racist point of view of western Europeans and it still didn't change a bit. Even today, all the eastern Europeans are the gypsies of Europe according to them and you are still cavemen and nothing you can do can change that because of racist nature of these people`s minds.

[pluto]

IV. The Races of Macedonia
10. Are the Macedonians Serbs or Bulgars ?


Are the Macedonians Serbs or Bulgars ? The question is constantly asked and dogmatically answered in Belgrade and Sofia. But the lesson of history obviously is that there is no answer at all. They are not Serbs, for their blood can hardly be purely Slavonic. (he makes assumptions) There must be in it (again he is guessing without any proof and the fact that some people left some blood is irrelevant because every nation is in the same situation and such presence doesn't define anyone ethnic identity ) some admixture of Bulgarian and other non-Aryan stock (Kuman Tartars, Pechenegs, &c.). On the other hand, they can hardly be Bulgarians, for quite clearly the Servian immigrations and conquests must have (guessing or stating ireelevant fact again) left much Servian blood in their veins, and the admixture of non-Aryan blood can scarcely be so considerable as it is in Bulgaria. They are probably very much what they were before either a Bulgarian or a Servian Empire existed — a Slav people derived from rather various stocks ](this is discussible ), who invaded the peninsula at different periods. But they had originally no clear consciousness of race, and any strong Slavonic Power was able to impose itself upon them.
.......
The differences between literary Servian and Bulgarian are not considerable, but they are very definite. The Macedonian dialect is neither one nor the other, but in certain structural features it agrees rather with Bulgarian than with Servian. This, however, means little; for modern Servian is not the language of Dushan, but the dialect of Belgrade. A southern Macedonian finds no difficulty in making himself understood in Dushan's country (Uskub and Prizrend), though he will feel a foreigner in Belgrade. One must also discount the effects of propaganda. A priest or teacher from Sofia or Belgrade who settles in a village will modify its dialect considerably in the course of a generation. This process may be observed at work round such centres as Uskub, where both Servians and Bulgarians are active. A trained ear can now detect a difference speech between villages which are only a few miles apart (this and some other things leads me to conclusion that he did not knew well all these languages and dialects well enough so he can make these deductions ), and even the foreigner notices that while the Bulgarophil peasants answer a question in the affirmative with "Da," the Serbophils say "Yis." The element of accident in these political affinities is very large. It is not uncommon to find fathers who are themselves officially "Greeks" equally proud of bringing into the world "Greek," "Servian," "Bulgarian," and "Roumanian" children.


... I was talking to a wealthy peasant who came in from a neighbouring village to Monastir market. He spoke Greek well, but hardly like a native. "Is your village Greek," I asked him, "or Bulgarian ?" "Well," he replied, "it is Bulgarian now, but four years ago it was Greek." The answer seemed to him entirely natural and commonplace. "How," I asked in some bewilderment, "did that miracle come about ?" "Why," said he, "we are all poor men, but we want to have our own school and a priest who will look after us properly. We used to have a Greek teacher. We paid him £5 a year and his bread, while the Greek consul paid him another £5; but we had no priest of our own. We shared a priest with several other villages, but he was very unpunctual and remiss. We went to the Greek Bishop to complain, but he refused to do anything for us. The Bulgarians (the villager speaks about the bulgarians in the same manner as greeks, that is like foreighners) heard of this and they came and made us an offer. They said they would give us a priest who would live in the village and a teacher to whom we need pay nothing. Well, sir, ours is a poor village, and so of course we became Bulgarians."

I questioned some boys from a remote mountain village near Ochrida ........."Who built this place ?" I asked them. The answer was significant — "The Free Men." "And who were they?" "Our grandfathers." "Yes, but were they Serbs or Bulgarians or Greeks or Turks ?" "They weren't Turks, they were Christians." And this seemed to be about the measure of their knowledge.

Brailsford should have asked more people and make his conclusions, but this witness that they did not considered themselves bulgarians or serbs (the people not affected by propaganda too much ). This may show that they were cautious when they were speaking to strangers , but there is enough evidence that many people considered Macedonians different from Serbs, Greeks or Bulgarians.