Ottoman Elections in Macedonia (1908)

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  • thessalo-niki
    Banned
    • Jun 2010
    • 191

    Ottoman Elections in Macedonia (1908)

    The general elector did not, however, vote directly for the Deputy he desired to represent him in Parliament. In each of the fifteen electoral districts, the registered voters were entitled to choose delegates in the proportion of one to every 500 of the voters, and these delegates (elected Administrative Councils) had the actual power of choosing the Parliamentary representatives. Moreover, the administration of territories was entrusted to elected Administrative Councils. Those Councils were elected and existed in the provinces, districts, and sub-districts.

    The parliament convened after the revolution only briefly and rather symbolically. The only task they performed was to call a new election. In the first Parliament, the President of the Chamber of Deputies was a Deputy from Jerusalem, Yusif Dia Pasha Al Khalidi.

    First term, 1908

    The new parliament comprised 142 Turks, 60 Arabs, 25 Albanians, 23 Greeks, 12 Armenians (including four Dashnaks and two Hunchaks), 5 Jews, 4 Bulgarians, 3 Serbs and 1 Vlach in the elections of 1908. The CUP could count on the support of about 60 deputies.[1] The CUP, the main driving force behind the revolution, managed to gain the upper hand against LU. LU was liberal in outlook, bearing a strong British imprint, and closer to the Palace. CUP come as the biggest party among a fragmented parliament by only 60 of the 275 seats.
    Can anyone provide details or information on who represended Macedonia in this short-lived Ottoman parliament?
    (The following discussion may help as an introduction)
    PCH offers fun quizzes on a wide range of topics. Animals, history, traveling and more. Test your knowledge and play our quizzes today!

    __________________________________
    Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul
    Last edited by thessalo-niki; 08-31-2010, 06:04 AM.
  • Bill77
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 4545

    #2
    Couldn't help notice one of the Ottoman deputies in April-August 1912 term was,

    Sami Vrionis Albanian

    Don't all Albanians in Greece have names ending with "is" ?

    But then again, aren't the majority of Greeks Albanian just like Dep "Vrionis" was.



    Before you get a hard on You so called Greek, thats a Incomplete list of Ottoman deputies in 1908-1912 term. And is that the best you can do copy and paste propaganda material from Greek sites and Wiki?



    You still have not answered my question.

    Do you dispute the "so called Greeks" remarks i made?
    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

    Comment

    • Bratot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2855

      #3
      Originally posted by thessalo-niki View Post
      Can anyone provide details or information on who represended Macedonia in this short-lived Ottoman parliament?
      (The following discussion may help as an introduction)
      PCH offers fun quizzes on a wide range of topics. Animals, history, traveling and more. Test your knowledge and play our quizzes today!

      __________________________________
      Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul


      In 1878 it was Dimitar Robev as Macedonian representative in the Turkish Parlament.

      Later in 1908 it was Dimitar Vlahov & Hristo Dalcev as representatives for Macedonians as part of the National Federative Party from Solun.




      The New York Daily Tribune, September 7th 1908








      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

      Comment

      • sf.
        Member
        • Jan 2010
        • 387

        #4
        For every post thesalo spams to negate our identity, I will spam for admins to ban him.
        Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

        Comment

        • Bill77
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 4545

          #5
          Originally posted by sf. View Post
          For every post thesalo spams to negate our identity, I will spam for admins to ban him.
          i will second that sf.

          The slime is full of questions but often lacks responding to ours. This tells me he has no interest in dialog and only intention is to come and spam then take off. What is his point being here. Just look at his avatar and how apropriate is it for what he is all about. A picture is worth a thousand words.
          http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

          Comment

          • thessalo-niki
            Banned
            • Jun 2010
            • 191

            #6
            Originally posted by sf. View Post
            For every post thesalo spams to negate our identity, I will spam for admins to ban him.
            OK, don’t start a petition. It was a question, an interesting one (I think). Anyway, the answer is embarrassing for Greek presence too. But, why hide it?
            Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
            i will second that sf.

            The slime is full of questions but often lacks responding to ours. This tells me he has no interest in dialog and only intention is to come and spam then take off. What is his point being here. Just look at his avatar and how appropriate is it for what he is all about. A picture is worth a thousand words.
            Bill, you forgot to add or link the incomplete list (or I don't get it). I'll try to answer all questions (though it seems like I often delay). Sometimes you put a one line question that has no answer or requires gathering data that history researches haven't managed to, or are secret and not-available in Greece.
            Your comment on my avatar was unexpected and half-misinterpreting. Get ready for a surprise. The person in my avatar is... indeed me (in a scene from a movie). But while it may look like a spy or the Shadow, this is supposed to be a communist in 1936 Thessaloniki, running and throwing some illegal leaflets.
            See, that’s your usual tragedy, confusing left and right wing.
            _________________________________
            Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

            Comment

            • thessalo-niki
              Banned
              • Jun 2010
              • 191

              #7
              OK, Bill77 found it, but he won't post it, so I will. The list is interesting (in unexpected ways). It seems precise, yet there are few inconsistencies (e.g. differences in names and numbers, comparing to information from the above posts & links) which we will discuss in next posts.
              (I don't know who added the ethnicities)


              Members of the Meclis-I Mebusan, 1912
              Political Parties - with abbreviations
              Committee of Union and Progress - CUP
              Liberal Union - LU
              Armenian Revolutionary Federation - ARF
              Independent - I

              KOSSOVO/USKUB (11) [7 Albanians!, 1 Turk, 1 Serb, 1 Bulgarian, 1 Unknown?]
              Uskub (4)
              Theodore Pavloff Bulgarian LU
              Spiro Ristich Serbian CUP
              Ali Sefik Bey Albanian I
              Yusuf Bey Albanian I
              Ipek (1)
              Hafiz Ibrahim Efendi Albanian I
              Senice/Novi Bazar (1)
              Emir Bey Albanian I
              Prishtne (1)
              Rifat Bey ? ?
              Prizren (3)
              Abdulaziz Efendi Albanian CUP
              Haci Destan Efendi Albanian CUP
              Tevfik Nazif [Arican] Albanian CUP
              Taslica (1)
              Mehmed Izzet Pasha Turk I

              MONASTIR (10) [4 Albanians, 2 Serbs, 2 Greeks, 1 Bulgarian, 1 Turk] (that's 11!)
              Monastir (4)
              Janaki Dimitrijevich Serbian I
              Traianos Nallis Greek LU
              Pantche Doreff Bulgarian Socialist
              Mehmed Vasif Efendi Albanian LU
              Ali Fethi [Okyar] Turk CUP
              Diber (1)
              Sevket [Enon] Albanian LU
              Elbasan (1)
              Sevket Bey Albanian LU
              Goritza/Gorice (2)
              Philip Mishe Serbian I
              Suleyman Efendi Albanian I
              Serfidje (2)
              Gregorius Efendi Greek I
              Osman Bey Turk CUP

              SALONICA (12) [7 Turks, 3 (or 4?) Bulgarians, 1 Greek, 1 Jew]
              Salonica (6)
              Mehmed Cavid Bey Turk CUP
              Emmanuel Carasso Jew CUP
              Mustafa Rahmi [Aslan] Turk CUP
              Halil Bey Turk CUP
              Kiryaki Kocuno Greek I
              Jordan Nikolov Bulgarian I
              Tchikotchanoff Bulgarian? I?
              Drama (2)
              Riza Bey Turk CUP
              Midhat Sukru [Bleda] Turk CUP
              Serres (4)
              Alexandre Bujnov Bulgarian I
              Hulusi Bey Turk I
              Stoju Hadziev Bulgarian I
              Dervis Ragib Bey Turk CUP
              ________________________________
              Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

              Comment

              • lavce pelagonski
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2009
                • 1993

                #8
                keep dreaming a greek in Bitola ye and wats with all the tatars probably Macedonian.
                Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

                „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

                Comment

                • Bratot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2855

                  #9
                  Those are VILLAYETS, of the name Salonika, Monastir and Ushkub.

                  Every Ottoman province - villayet got several representatives in the Turkish parlament as a part of the existing POLITICAL PARTIES.

                  Most of the Macedonians were included in the Peoples Fedrative Party.

                  The stats of Thessalo-niki are from the 1912 year!
                  Last edited by Bratot; 09-06-2010, 02:55 AM.
                  The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                  Comment

                  • makedonin
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1668

                    #10
                    Before talking about Ottoman census, one has to consider what those people understood under certain conventions/designations of the time.

                    Example would be:


                    Taken from "Greece and the Balkans By Dēmētrēs Tziovas, Page 43"

                    or

                    .....the legacy of the Ottoman millet system which divided the empire's population according to religious affiliation, leading to a long-lasting correlation between religion and identity
                    aim,alternativna informativna mreza,alternative information,alternative information network,athens,atina,belgrad,belgrade,beograd,laibach,ljubljana,podgorica,prishtina,pristina,athajevo,skopje,skoplje,sofia,tirana,zagreb
                    After considering those things, what is left from the shown census is nothing.
                    To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                    Comment

                    • thessalo-niki
                      Banned
                      • Jun 2010
                      • 191

                      #11
                      Originally posted by lavce pelagonski View Post
                      keep dreaming a greek in Bitola ye and wats with all the tatars probably Macedonian.
                      Yes, actually he's the only one I could confirm from other sources. Traianos Nallis was a Greek Vlach (so I don't know how post#1 counts him). I couldn't confirm (yet) the other Greeks, their past and future. The names seem to be misspelled (or Turkish versions of their names). See pages 228, 250. It’s a conspiracy, some of the most interesting pages do not appear.
                      This is a detailed account and an excellent narrative history of the often neglected period 1906-1908 in Turkey, in which the prelude and aftermath of the revolution and elections of 1908 took place. The year 1908 opened a new era of representative government and the social and political developments leading to the overthrow of the "ancien regime" are carefully and fascinatingly given. Historians and general readers will find "The Revolution of 1908 in Turkey" a thought-provoking book, which will resound in the discussion of the validity of Kemalist or quasi-Kemalist historiography and therefore provide a major contribution to the field.


                      This is not a census, it's election results after an election (filtering) system described in post#1. While it says 1912, I think it's the election of 1908. The 1908-1912 Parliament never actually operated. I don't know if there were 1912 elections few months before Ottoman collapse in Macedonia (I think not).
                      _____________________________________
                      Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul
                      Last edited by thessalo-niki; 09-06-2010, 06:56 AM.

                      Comment

                      • makedonin
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1668

                        #12
                        Originally posted by thessalo-niki View Post
                        Traianos Nallis was a Greek Vlach (so I don't know how post#1 counts him).
                        Well, other than wonnabe Vlachs who were represented them self as Romaioi, you ain't gonna find anything in Macedonia which is nearly as Greek as you want.

                        It is this phenomenon, the Hellenization of the Vlachs, that is of interest here. The remarkable power of Hellenism in assimilating the Vlachs has routinely been attributed to the idea that there was some strong benefit for the Vlachs in being Hellenized; Arnold Toynbee, for example, has said that "Hellenism stands to them for the transition to a higher social phase."[6] In Nearer East, D. G. Hogarth saw the attraction of Hellenism for the Vlachs in the fact that it represented a "higher civilisation."[7] H. N. Brailsford felt the connection of the Vlachs to Greece to be self-interested and opportunistic, the result of the "undisputed primacy" of the Greeks (and of Greek as the language of commerce) in the Balkans in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries;[8] again, the implication is functional, i.e., that there was some advantage to be gained by the Vlachs through their Hellenization. The most recent historian of the Vlachs, Tom Winnifrith, also cites the advantages and prestige of Greek language and culture as factors in the Hellenization of the Vlachs.[9]

                        All you have are wonna be Romaioi, who were nothing alike you call and consider a Hellene of Ancient or Modern times.
                        Last edited by makedonin; 09-06-2010, 08:09 AM.
                        To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                        Comment

                        • Onur
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 2389

                          #13
                          Originally posted by thessalo-niki View Post
                          Yes, actually he's the only one I could confirm from other sources. Traianos Nallis was a Greek Vlach (so I don't know how post#1 counts him). I couldn't confirm (yet) the other Greeks, their past and future. The names seem to be misspelled (or Turkish versions of their names). See pages 228, 250. It’s a conspiracy, some of the most interesting pages do not appear.
                          This is a detailed account and an excellent narrative history of the often neglected period 1906-1908 in Turkey, in which the prelude and aftermath of the revolution and elections of 1908 took place. The year 1908 opened a new era of representative government and the social and political developments leading to the overthrow of the "ancien regime" are carefully and fascinatingly given. Historians and general readers will find "The Revolution of 1908 in Turkey" a thought-provoking book, which will resound in the discussion of the validity of Kemalist or quasi-Kemalist historiography and therefore provide a major contribution to the field.


                          This is not a census, it's election results after an election (filtering) system described in post#1. While it says 1912, I think it's the election of 1908. The 1908-1912 Parliament never actually operated. I don't know if there were 1912 elections few months before Ottoman collapse in Macedonia (I think not).
                          _____________________________________
                          Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul


                          The names are just written according to Turkish orthography, so probably there should be few letter differences in their names if you search in Greek or English books.

                          1908-1912 parliament was the 3rd parliamentary election in Ottoman history. It`s not based on the population percentages of districts. There was a quota based system, like for the 1908 elections, there should be 142 Turks, 60 Arabs, 25 Albanians, 23 Istanbul patriarchy members(should be Greeks but few might be hellenized Vlach, dunno), 16 Armenian church members, 5 Jews, 4 Bulgarian patriarchy members(These are Macedonians but might be pro-Bulgar people, dunno), 3 Serbian church members(these were probably from Kosovo), 1 Vlach(yes Vlach, cuz Ottoman Empire recognized Vlach identity in Macedonia but Greeks didn't after they invaded Aegean side) and 1 Assyrian. So, these names are not really an ethnicity but church allegiances based on the quota agreed between the communities and the Sultan. The first aim of this parliament was already forming some kind of federation system inside Ottoman Empire and unite everyone under the tag of Ottoman citizenship. So, church allegiance was still the prime factor at that time, not the ethnicity but ofc it failed.

                          The Committee of Union and Progress(CUP) was the political party of Jeune(Young) Turks movement and they did coup d`etat against the Sultan shortly after the formation of 3rd parliament.

                          This was the result of 1908 elections as you said and this parliament actually did work and it was operational `till 1912. There are several books including the compilation of official reports and speeches of parliamentarians between 1908-1912. The Sultan regained his powers for a short time and he abolished the parliament at 1912. Jeune Turks overthrew him again after few months but the parliament was already abolished by Sultan and Balkan wars was going to start, so there wasn't any new election at 1912.
                          Last edited by Onur; 09-06-2010, 11:52 AM.

                          Comment

                          • thessalo-niki
                            Banned
                            • Jun 2010
                            • 191

                            #14
                            That's very interesting Onur. Are you saying that for each district (or sub-district) the number of representatives per ethnicity (or religion) was pre-defined? It was not one person, one vote? (If so, we shouldn't bother). Are you sure?
                            _________________________________
                            Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

                            Comment

                            • Onur
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2010
                              • 2389

                              #15
                              Originally posted by thessalo-niki View Post
                              That's very interesting Onur. Are you saying that for each district (or sub-district) the number of representatives per ethnicity (or religion) was pre-defined? It was not one person, one vote? (If so, we shouldn't bother). Are you sure?

                              I gotta check again to be %100 sure but as far as i remember from the books i`ve read b4, churches(patriarchies) and community representatives was negotiating with Sultan for the number of parliamentarians they can have. Ofc total population of the communities and the percentage of them in total population of the Empire was primary factor but not the only one. For example, Istanbul patriarchy members had the quota of 23 person and then they predefine for like ~50 person and members of patriarchy votes between these people and 23 of them gets selected as a parliamentarian representing Istanbul patriarchy community in the parliament.

                              It was like that otherwise we could see more Turkish parliamentarians from Salonika, Monastir or Kosovo. I think this predefine system was a demand of christian communities because they were saying that their people was living as scattered among the Turks others in vast territories and they would have no chance to get proper representation in the parliament with other election systems.
                              Last edited by Onur; 09-06-2010, 12:31 PM.

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