Macedonian - Scottish historical lineage

[Bratot]

The origin of the Gordon clan in Scotland was not Gaelic. The Gordon clan is originally from Normandy, where their ancestors are said to have had large possessions. From the great antiquity of the race, many fabulous accounts have been given of the descent of the Gordons. Some derive them from a city of Macedonia, called Gordonia (Close to modern day Gevgelija).

http://www.houseofgordon.com/HISTORY.html

http://bydand.orconhosting.net.nz/page3.htm

Perseus' one son, Alexander, was still a child when Perseus was conquered by the Romans, and after the triumph of Aemilius Paullus in 167 BC, was kept in custody at Alba, together with his father. He became a skillful toreutes, learned the Latin language, and became a public notary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba

The favourite Scottish order of battle somewhat resembled the Macedonian phalanx. Their infantry formed a compact body, armed with long spears, impenetrable even to the men-at-arms of the age, though well mounted, and arrayed in complete proof.

- Sir Walter Scott

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/scott/walter/legend/chapter15.html

The alternative Scottish flag:




What do you think of it?

We can also mention the folklore music instrument - Gaida as common heritage.

TrueMacedonian, can you help with some matherials on this subject?

[Bratot]

This clever invention, was Wallace's own creation. Wallace, it is believed, had no prior knowledge of the great Greek and Macedonian phalanxes used by armies such as those of Alexander the Great centuries before. This classical literature and the wealth of information it contained remained a secret from most Europeans until Spanish Lords captured the great palaces in the Moorish Kingdoms of Granada, and earlier in Spain itself. Much classical knowledge was reclaimed from the Spanish Reconquista, or the "reconquering" of Spain, by Christian Europeans.

Discovering a weath of books and information all written in Arabic from original Greek texts, one Spanish lord sought help to decipher them. He found that his Jewish man-servant had a knowledge of Arabic language, having lived so near the Moors and Arabs. The servant translated the texts thus unlocking vast stores of information about Greek, Macedonian, Persian, and Roman history which had been lost to Europe. Therefore, many experts feel, and I would agree, Wallace had no prior knowledge of the phalanxes used by the ancients as sometimes stated in older Scottish history texts.

http://www.scottish-history.com/falkirk.shtml

Wallas - Wallach - Woloch - Vlach? ) kiddin'

[George S.]

i read on the net a theory regarding the name of scotland for example the word scotsni means to jump in macedonian.They reckon that years ago perhaps during the roman invasions,macedonians left macedonia due to the wars & landed where scotland is that's what the theory is.I wrote to a historical scottish history people & they said that it's the celtic influence from the celts.
But as far as you are concerned there is a macedonian connection,otherwise how did they get the phallanx & symbols etc.
I'm not surprised that the scots etc using macedonian symbols in theiir heraldry as its used in royal insignia all the time.Queen elizabeth has got royal symbols & it is known in heraldry that it's macedonian symbols that are used.
Regarding the gaida this historical society reckons it's the celtic influence as macedonia & other countries were invaded by the celts.

[Bratot]

The Celts spread in wide area of Western Europe, but this musical instrument can be found only in Macedonia, Baskia and Scottland.

[Pelister]

One ancient title for the Scotland, was 'Albania'.

The term derives from the Latin 'Alpine', meaning of course, 'high places'...etc, and was used commonly throughout the ancient world to describe mountainous regions.

[fyrOM]

Bratot I have never had any proof but always suspected a connection with the Scotts just
from observation but that line of thinking always leads to the question did they import it
from us or did we import it from them.

Long lined clan names
The bagpipe as a prominent instrument
Haggis chkemba
Red hair originating from the Balkans This I saw on channel 9 Today Show

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Gordon

The first Gordon on record is Richard of Gordon, previously
of Swinton, said to have been the grandson of a famous knight
who slew some monstrous animal in the Merse during the time
of King Malcolm III of Scotland. This Richard was Lord of the Barony
of Gordon in the Merse. Between 1150 and 1160 he granted from his
estate a piece of land to the Monks of St. Mary at Kelso,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagpipes

Evidence of pre-medieval bagpipes is uncertain, but several textual
and visual clues may possibly indicate ancient forms of bagpipes.
In the second century AD, Suetonius described the Roman Emperor
Nero as a player of the tibia utricularis.[1]. Dio Chrysostom,
who also flourished in the first century, wrote about a contemporary
sovereign (possibly Nero) who could play a pipe ("aulein") with his
mouth as well as with his "armpit". [2] From this account, some believe
that the tibia utricularis was a bagpipe.

In the early part of the second millennium, bagpipes began to appear
with frequency in European art and iconography. The Cantigas de Santa
Maria, compiled in Castile in the mid-13th Century, depict several
types of bagpipes. [3] Though evidence of bagpipes in the British
Isles prior to the 14th Century is contested, bagpipes are explicitly
mentioned in The Canterbury Tales (written around 1380)

http://forums.skadi.net/archive/index.php/t-22375.html

There are three different claims about the origins of red hair
in the Scottish Highlands. One claim is that it was common
among the Picts and has always been there. Another claim is
that it was brought by the Kelts. Yet another claim is that
it was brought by the Vikings.

At one time the area was settled by people with Mediterranean skulls.
Then came tall brachycephalic Beaker Folk. Hallstatt Nordics from
central Europe invaded the British Isles, but didn't penetrate
to northern Scotland, which remained Pictish. Celts often had
red hair. However, Vikings and Germanics were often described
as red-haired too. The Rus in Russia were described as redheads.
They came from Sweden, where red hair is uncommon today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people.
A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians
as blue-eyed and red haired. The Greek historian Herodotus described
the "Budini" (probably Udmurts and Permyak located on the Volga
in what is modern-day Russia) as being predominantly redheaded.
The Greek historian Dio Cassius described Boudica, the famous
Celtic Queen of the Iceni, to be "tall and terrifying in appearance...
a great mass of red hair... over her shoulders." Also, several
mythological characters from Homer's Iliad,
(themselves purportedly Greek) are described as being "red-haired"
including Menelaus and Achilles.

The Roman author Tacitus commented on the "red hair and large limbs
of the inhabitants of Caledonia (Scotland)",[5] which he connected
with some red haired Gaulish tribes of Germanic and Belgic relation.
The half Greek half Turkish pirate Red Beard or Hayreddin Barbarossa
is said to have had a fiery red beard.[citation needed]

Red hair has also been found in Asia, notably among the Tocharians
who occupied the northwesternmost province of what is modern-day China.
Many of 2nd millennium BC Caucasian Tarim mummies in China have been
found with red and blonde hair.[6]

A fresco of a red-haired Thracian noble woman in the Ostrusha Mound in
central Bulgaria, 4th century BC

[Bratot]

" This he insists upon at large in this Third Book, and thinks it the
more probable, because the Story of Saxo, the Founder of the
Saxon Nation, agrees with it. He says all Authors, Crantzius ex-
cepted, agree. That the Saxons were some Remains of the Mace-
donian Army ; and that before they came into Germany, they
were called Macedonians ; for this he quotes the German Chronicle, printed at Mentz, in 1482. the Annals of Freezland, and
others."

http://books.google.pl/books?id=AbU9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=That+the+Saxons+were+some+Remains+of+the+Macedonian&source=bl&ots=XzByC536hC&sig=ulw3PbMElb1DkmT_hsR8KnKAbzQ&hl=pl&ei=-ct0TLroAo2VswaGn9GmBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Macedonian&f=false

[Bratot]

Maybe a valuable trace...

"Scotic is related to the term Scythic and was pronounced the same in some areas of Britain. It is an interesting observation that the German word for both Scottish and Scythian is "Scutten", as the 6th century Saxon invaders of Alba spoke a form of lower German."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kXjO-JYQQcQJ:hal_macgregor.tripod.com/gregor/Scythia.html+on+the+%22Welsh%22,+which+remains+in+a+somewhat+modified+version+today&cd=1&hl=pl&ct=clnk&gl=pl

[Bill77]

Amazing information Bratot who would have thought. First thing that hit me was, apart from Lion emblem and the bag pipes influence, I wander if there is some influence in the Scottish Kilt coming from the Macedonian Fustanella.

[Mikail]

Some mind bending information there Bratot. A very nice find indeed. Bravo!

[Bratot]

Amazing information Bratot who would have thought. First thing that hit me was, apart from Lion emblem and the bag pipes influence, I wander if there is some influence in the Scottish Kilt coming from the Macedonian Fustanella.

I have thought of it too.. but searching for more informations I found some very symptomatic names of Gajda in Georgia:

The gudastviri (Georgian: გუდასტვირი) is a droneless, double-chantered, horn-belled bagpipe played in Georgia. The term comes from the words guda (bag) and stviri (whistling). In some regions, the instrument is called the chiboni, stviri, or tulumi.

Gude is Macedonian word for a piggy, but also for playing a violin - gudenje, the fiddlestick is called - gudalo.

Stviri is Sviri in Macedonian, in some dialect we still hear the T letter.

And Tulumi in Macedonian can be Tulum (bag for wine made of the belly skin from animals).

http://www.hangebi.ge/gudachibru.htm

If you look through the net you will find informations about Caucasian origin of Scotts, as Ossetians-Georgians.

But you will find significant Macedonian - Georgian connection from ancient times.

[Serdarot]

ne samo sho Gude e prase, tuku Gaida se praj od Goida
Nadueno Goido = Gaida

[Bratot]

Sto Goedo si bre

Vistina, premnogu slucnosti za da bide slucajno.

[Bill77]

I don't want to go of topic to much but here is a bit of trivia for you regarding the Gajda. Apparently, Metaxas out lawed the Gajda under his regime with an excuse "it was peasantry". But most likely the reason was it was to Macedonian for Greece and its forced assimilation plans.


Back to the Scottish and Macedonian topic. I met this lovely old fellow in Ohrid playing his Gajda on top of Samuil Fortress, I am sure many travelers have met him and know who i am talking about. I asked him the difference between the Scottish Bag pipes and the Macedonian Gajda "which i have on video). With out going into the technicality of exactly how they are different, This gajdadjia told me he would not be able to play the scottish pipes and they would not be able to play ours. I am not sure why it would be different, but who am i to argue with this wanderful gajda playing old man.

Once again, sorry if i am off topic but i thought it would be interesting to know, and i will leave it at that.

[Onur]

Maybe a valuable trace...

"Scotic is related to the term Scythic and was pronounced the same in some areas of Britain. It is an interesting observation that the German word for both Scottish and Scythian is "Scutten", as the 6th century Saxon invaders of Alba spoke a form of lower German."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=pl

Most probably they were included in the army of Hun Empire vs the Romans. You know, as early as the first half of 5th century, Huns conquered today`s France, Germany, pretty much all of western and central Europe. When they conquered these places, there was several Germanic tribes living in that area and these Germanic pagans allied with Huns by joining their army and they attacked Romans together. European scholars usually doesn't remind that but Attila`s horde included the Saxon tribes too and thats how they reached up to the northern Europe. These tribes retreated up to the today`s Scotland and England after Hun Empire disappeared and thats how anglo-saxon unity has been born. Those were "dark ages" according to christian philosophy.


P. S: We got same musical instrument in Turkey with the name "Tulum". "Tulum" is actually the name of sheep`s belly skin and the bag of this instrument was made from this skin in the old times. It`s actually rather strange that you use same word "Gayda" along with the Scots, while i know that Greeks use "Tulum" for it. I think the word "Gayda, gajda" can be related with the "gastro", meaning belly, stomach again. Etymology dictionary says "Gastro" is a Greek word and If "Gajda" and "Gastro" are related then i wonder why Greeks use Turkish word Tulum for it instead of Gayda?

Apparently, Metaxas out lawed the Gajda under his regime with an excuse "it was peasantry". But most likely the reason was it was to Macedonian for Greece and its forced assimilation plans.

Metaxas regime also banned the taverns and the songs of Anatolian immigrants at the same time.