The Macedonian Sun & (Original) Flag

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  • Chicho Makedonski
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2019
    • 47

    Originally posted by Karposh View Post
    I really didn't set out to antagonise you Chich but your tone suggests that perhaps I have. Whatever. You are defending a couple of positions here like they were foregone and indisputable conclusions made by world-renowned academics. They're not. They're just your own (and maybe your mates') fringe theories and ideas.

    Clearly, my sarcasm is lost on you in much of what I had to say earlier and you seem to be arguing with me as though I'm defending some Greek point of view on the Macedonian sun or that I have my own personal theory on what type of flower the rosette might actually be.

    I know the poppy has a place in Macedonian folklore. It's even depicted on our shitty coat of arms..I get it. But you are delusional if you think the decorative turquoise blue rosette, that was seen for the first time on a burial casket in Kutlesh, was anything more than decorative when they discovered it all those years ago or that it definitely has to be a poppy. Can you not see that? Maybe you can convince me if you can show me a blue poppy in existence anywhere in nature. Or, better still, show me another example, other than the burial casket from the main burial chamber from Kutlesh, which has a similar rosette. Every other depiction of the Macedonian sun that I have seen besides the Kutlesh one do not have the flower (sorry, the poppy) in the middle. From ancient Macedonian coins to shields, it's always a solid disc. Are these maybe Greek in origin as they do not have the flower in the middle to distinguish them as Macedonian (according to your theory)?

    Incidentally, the other burial casket, from the adjoining burial chamber in Kutlesh, also bore the Macedonian sun. However, no flower and...only 12 rays. This kind of goes against what your saying, don't you think. Was it 12 tribes or 16?
    Decorative or not, the point is the poppy was clearly seen as important to the Macedonians to put it at the centre of the symbol on Philip II’s casket.

    The flower in the middle resembles the centre of an opium poppy flower. There’s opium poppy flowers that have a blue/aqua stem with a blue/aqua head.

    By meaning, the Macedonian sun differed from the 16 pointed star found in the supposed ‘Mycenaean-era tomb’ and any other sun with rays the Greeks rarely used. But by looks, the 16 pointed sun found in the supposed ‘Mycenaean-era tomb’ looks virtually the same as the Macedonian sun, which is why i am saying its important to know the meaning/difference between the two close symbols.

    Personally I’m against the idea to abandon the poppy flower in the middle considering it was placed on one of Macedonia’s finest kings casket. But when I see the Macedonian sun without the flower that’s fine also as it’s dedicated to the Macedonian tribes. Just personally I’d rather it with the poppy flower.

    I know it was mostly just a solid circle at the centre of the Macedonian sun, as it’s purpose is to resemble a sun with its rays depicting how many tribes were part of Ancient Macedonia.

    The other burial chamber was possibly dedicated to someone who died when Ancient Macedonia only had 12 tribes as opposed to the completed 16.

    So with your logic (being against the poppy flower and 16 rays representing the tribes) what explanation do you have for the changes in rays overtime? Clearly it meant something to change the amount of rays as Ancient Macedonia grew.

    While for the Greeks they just used the sun to most likely honour Helios and the rays clearly didn’t represent anything because there’s illustrations of Helios with over 20 rays and also just 6 behind his head, when all Helios is, is a mythical god that’s not real. The sun rays were used like a decorative crown and the amount of rays didn’t matter. There’s also Ancient Greek art which shows different amount of poorly painted suns similar to the Macedonian sun with rays from 6 to over 20 with no recorded growth of anything (tribes, city state alliances etc). This shows the rays didn’t represent anything for them and were just used for decoration.

    Comment

    • sydney
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 390

      The unfortunate fact for Macedonians is that a unified viewpoint on our history is still developing, and therefore we have all these theories as to why things are the way they are.

      Chicho, considering the above, can you please provide some links referencing the poppy was a royal symbol and that the sun’s rays were representative of Macedonian tribes? I’ve never heard of either of these before.

      Comment

      • Karposh
        Member
        • Aug 2015
        • 863

        Hi MM, I think Mario seems like a nice enough and like-able sort of guy with a humble head on his shoulders that doesn't get ahead of himself too much. I've actually watched quite a few of his videos and I tend to agree with much of what he has to say.

        With regard to the poppy being the root word of "Makedonija", it's just a personal theory of his, as he points out from the start and, like I mentioned to Chich, there is nothing wrong with proposing ideas and theories. That's all fine. I just find it problematic when people forget that they are just theories and often arrogantly hold onto them as though they were facts. I don't think Mario is so arrogant as to claim that his stated theory is the truth but is simply offering another possible position. The rosette/zravets/or, poppy in this case, that was uncovered in Kutlesh is, as far as I know, the only representation of this sunburst/rosette combination. I have yet to see a similar combination. Every other depiction of the Macedonian sun that I have seen does not have this so-called poppy on them. I also made the point regarding the other burial casket from Kutlesh which doesn't have this zdravets/poppy/daisy (or whatever it might be) on the sunburst. So, it can't have been that important.

        Mario has also made a video regarding the number of rays on the Macedonian sun and their supposed meaning. I'm not sure if Chich got the idea from Mario's theory regarding this as well, but he seems to attribute the number of rays as representing the number of Macedonian tribes. This theory falls over again when with the second burial casket from Kutlesh, which contradicts this theory as well.

        Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people having a stab at trying to understand the things we don't really have any idea about. You don't have to be a world renowned academic, as I sarcastically mentioned in one of my previous posts, to have an opinion but, at the same time, these must be taken with a grain of salt and a dash of humility. In his video, Mario says that the word Makedonija is a combination of Mak -The Poppy and Dno - Bottom (or land/soil) which, when put together - Mak'dno means "land of the poppy". Interesting theory but there's also other theories that suggest Makedonija simply means "motherland" from Majka and Dno. Interestingly, the ancient Greek god of the seas, Poseidon, has been etymologised by some Macedonians to mean "Poseduvach na Dnoto" i.e. "Keeper of the Ocean Floor". I love this theory. It even sounds plausible in Macedonian etymology. As does the word Odyssey (Odi Si in Macedonian means "To Go Away"), the title of Homer's epic poem about a someone's journey home.

        Anyway, that's all I think I have to say on the matter regarding the little blue flower on the Macedonian sun and I still maintain that it doesn't belong there. The only way I could possibly change my mind would be if I see enough credible evidence to suggests that it signified or meant anything more to the Ancient Macedonians than a simple decorative motif, not disimilar to the fleur de lis , another common Macedonian decorative relief which can also be seen on the same burial casket from Kutlesh.

        Comment

        • Karposh
          Member
          • Aug 2015
          • 863

          The plot thickens on the poppy it would seem...

          Not to seem pig-headed, I did some of my own research on the this plant and it looks as though there is some evidence to suggest that it can be linked to the burial casket from Kutlesh. From Wikipedia:

          Poppies have long been used as a symbol of sleep, peace, and death: Sleep because the opium extracted from them is a sedative, and death because of the common blood-red color of the red poppy in particular. In Greek and Roman myths, poppies were used as offerings to the dead. Poppies used as emblems on tombstones symbolize eternal sleep. This symbolism was evoked in the children's novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, in which a magical poppy field threatened to make the protagonists sleep forever. A second interpretation of poppies in Classical mythology is that the bright scarlet color signifies a promise of resurrection after death.
          Reading this, I am open-minded enough to the idea that it might in fact be a poppy as the symbolism of this plant was clearly associated with death and eternal sleep. That probably explains why you don't see it on coins and shields but, so far, only on burial caskets. I still wouldn't stick it on the Macedonian flag though since, clearly, the poppy was symbolic with death more than it was with being Macedonian. It was the sun that represented the Macedonian identity not the poppy.

          This is becoming really interesting because, if it is a poppy, then you have a very symbolic depiction of death, darkness and eternal sleep, symbolised by the poppy, superimposed on the symbol of life, the sun.

          BTW, I was stunned to see a blue poppy (Himalayan Blue Poppy) in the images at the end of the Wikipwedia article.

          Comment

          • Momce Makedonce
            Member
            • Jul 2012
            • 562

            Originally posted by Karposh View Post
            Hi MM, I think Mario seems like a nice enough and like-able sort of guy with a humble head on his shoulders that doesn't get ahead of himself too much. I've actually watched quite a few of his videos and I tend to agree with much of what he has to say.

            With regard to the poppy being the root word of "Makedonija", it's just a personal theory of his, as he points out from the start and, like I mentioned to Chich, there is nothing wrong with proposing ideas and theories. That's all fine. I just find it problematic when people forget that they are just theories and often arrogantly hold onto them as though they were facts. I don't think Mario is so arrogant as to claim that his stated theory is the truth but is simply offering another possible position. The rosette/zravets/or, poppy in this case, that was uncovered in Kutlesh is, as far as I know, the only representation of this sunburst/rosette combination. I have yet to see a similar combination. Every other depiction of the Macedonian sun that I have seen does not have this so-called poppy on them. I also made the point regarding the other burial casket from Kutlesh which doesn't have this zdravets/poppy/daisy (or whatever it might be) on the sunburst. So, it can't have been that important.

            Mario has also made a video regarding the number of rays on the Macedonian sun and their supposed meaning. I'm not sure if Chich got the idea from Mario's theory regarding this as well, but he seems to attribute the number of rays as representing the number of Macedonian tribes. This theory falls over again when with the second burial casket from Kutlesh, which contradicts this theory as well.

            Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people having a stab at trying to understand the things we don't really have any idea about. You don't have to be a world renowned academic, as I sarcastically mentioned in one of my previous posts, to have an opinion but, at the same time, these must be taken with a grain of salt and a dash of humility. In his video, Mario says that the word Makedonija is a combination of Mak -The Poppy and Dno - Bottom (or land/soil) which, when put together - Mak'dno means "land of the poppy". Interesting theory but there's also other theories that suggest Makedonija simply means "motherland" from Majka and Dno. Interestingly, the ancient Greek god of the seas, Poseidon, has been etymologised by some Macedonians to mean "Poseduvach na Dnoto" i.e. "Keeper of the Ocean Floor". I love this theory. It even sounds plausible in Macedonian etymology. As does the word Odyssey (Odi Si in Macedonian means "To Go Away"), the title of Homer's epic poem about a someone's journey home.

            Anyway, that's all I think I have to say on the matter regarding the little blue flower on the Macedonian sun and I still maintain that it doesn't belong there. The only way I could possibly change my mind would be if I see enough credible evidence to suggests that it signified or meant anything more to the Ancient Macedonians than a simple decorative motif, not disimilar to the fleur de lis , another common Macedonian decorative relief which can also be seen on the same burial casket from Kutlesh.
            Hey Karposh, I only linked that video for the part where he compares the centre of the Macedonian sun with the poppy centre and how similar they look. I know that his theory on the root of the name Macedonia is his personal one and that there is several others out there. I agree that theories are not always set in stone and shouldn't be held as fact unless there is substantial evidence.

            In terms of the Kutlesh discoveries is it possible the one burial that has the sun with less rays was from an earlier time period? I have heard that the rays on the Macedonian sun represent the number of Macedonian tribes multiple times both from Mario's History Talks but also other instances. I don't really know where it comes from and whether it's from some evidence or theory, I would have to let someone with more knowledge on the subject enlighten me.

            I guess the question has to be asked if the blue in the centre of the sun isn't a poppy what exactly is it and why was it included? Why add a blue pattern into the centre of a symbol representing the sun? It could be simply decorative and not much else in it as you say, alternatively it could be there for a more meaningful reason. Quite an interesting mystery. The number of rays is another interesting area that I would love some more information about.

            Do you just not like the way the Macedonian Sun looks with the blue in the middle or is it the fact it's not seen on every version of the Sun that has been found so you think it's unnecessary? I guess some people would definitely have a preference, I actually don't mind either version. I'm not familiar with the fleur di lis, was this also found in the Kutlesh burials?

            I find this topic very interesting and wish we had more concrete information. If any member has some information on the above topics or the Macedonian sun in general don't hesitate to share.
            Last edited by Momce Makedonce; 01-12-2020, 09:30 AM.
            "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task." Goce Delcev

            Comment

            • Karposh
              Member
              • Aug 2015
              • 863

              Originally posted by Momce Makedonce View Post
              ...I guess the question has to be asked if the blue in the centre of the sun isn't a poppy what exactly is it and why was it included?
              Well, after learning that the poppy symbolised death and eternal sleep in ancient times, I'm very open to the idea (now) that that's the reason why it was in fact included rather than being just decorative.

              Originally posted by Momce Makedonce View Post
              ...Do you just not like the way the Macedonian Sun looks with the blue in the middle or is it the fact it's not seen on every version of the Sun that has been found so you think it's unnecessary?
              All of the above MM. Totally unnecessary.

              Originally posted by Momce Makedonce View Post
              ...I guess some people would definitely have a preference, I actually don't mind either version. I'm not familiar with the fleur di lis, was this also found in the Kutlesh burials?
              The fleur de lis can be seen right around the burial casket with the blue flower decorations (which I'm more inclined to refer to as funerary poppy decorations now). Not sure if it's on the other casket. I haven't bothered to check.

              Comment

              • Karposh
                Member
                • Aug 2015
                • 863

                Originally posted by Momce Makedonce View Post
                In terms of the Kutlesh discoveries is it possible the one burial that has the sun with less rays was from an earlier time period? I have heard that the rays on the Macedonian sun represent the number of Macedonian tribes multiple times both from Mario's History Talks but also other instances. I don't really know where it comes from and whether it's from some evidence or theory, I would have to let someone with more knowledge on the subject enlighten me.
                It depends if you believe the current narrative that the more elaborate burial casket contained the bones of King Phillip II and the other casket with the 12 rays contained the bones of one of his wives. If that's true, then it's hard to argue the rays representing the tribes point of view since both husband and wife were from the same era. If, on the other hand, they got it wrong, and the two burial caskets are from different eras, then who knows...

                Comment

                • Chicho Makedonski
                  Junior Member
                  • Feb 2019
                  • 47

                  Originally posted by sydney View Post
                  The unfortunate fact for Macedonians is that a unified viewpoint on our history is still developing, and therefore we have all these theories as to why things are the way they are.

                  Chicho, considering the above, can you please provide some links referencing the poppy was a royal symbol and that the sun’s rays were representative of Macedonian tribes? I’ve never heard of either of these before.
                  To be honest i can’t exactly remember where I read up on it, but I’ve seen Macedonians on several social media pages a while back speak of the rays representing the Macedonian tribes as before Philip II’s reign there was only 8 rays. But as Ancient Macedonia grew and more tribes formed the Macedonian nation, it reached 16 tribes and the final product of the Macedonian sun consists 16 rays. So by logic and common sense it’s by far the most accurate assumption and makes the most sense.

                  As for the poppy I’ve read up and seen YouTube videos on Macedonia producing the most opium in the world, obviously showcasing that Poppy’s have alway been frequent in Macedonia. Then I saw Mario’s History Talks bring it up on YouTube and explain it further how it was clearly a symbol of Macedonia’s nature. As for Karposh’s finding of the poppy supposedly representing death in ancient culture. It mentions the red part of the poppy represented death/blood, but the poppy found on the tomb is Blue. So I’m not sure if this is the exact reasoning of the poppy placed on Philip II’s tomb. Who knows.
                  Last edited by Chicho Makedonski; 01-17-2020, 07:57 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Anyone heard of or know more about this book from 1969?

                    The old Macedonians, by Duško Hr Konstantinov (Published 1969 in Bitola).

                    URL:


                    Thanks!

                    Comment

                    • Rogi
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2343

                      Prompted by another, currently active thread, there are a series of images on this thread that show the use of the Macedonian Sun as a symbol, prior to 1978.

                      Any chance we can fix those now broken images?

                      Also, I didnt see in this thread the image of the pillar from the Church in Bitola from the 1850s

                      Comment

                      • Liberator of Makedonija
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 1597

                        Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                        Prompted by another, currently active thread, there are a series of images on this thread that show the use of the Macedonian Sun as a symbol, prior to 1978.

                        Any chance we can fix those now broken images?

                        Also, I didnt see in this thread the image of the pillar from the Church in Bitola from the 1850s

                        http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ma...onia-Cross.jpg

                        I believe there's an even older church form a village near Nevrokop that displays the sun as well; probably in this thread
                        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          The Coats of Arms and Other Forms of State Emblem Proposed for the Republic of Macedonia, and the Process of Their Adoption, 19922014

                          by Jovan Jonovski

                          Selecting national emblems is crucial for the development of a national identity. This paper presents all official proposals for the coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia, starting in 1992, with the proposals of the public competition for the selection of the coat of arms, flag, and anthem of the Republic of Macedonia, and finishing with the last Government proposal in 2014. All of the proposals are categorized according to their main symbol, a sun or a lion. The long and complex process of creating national symbols shows that there is a deep division regarding which one to use.


                          Comment

                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1597

                            How the lion was not adopted as the coat of arms I will never know
                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15660

                              The obvious choice
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Karposh
                                Member
                                • Aug 2015
                                • 863

                                Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                                How the lion was not adopted as the coat of arms I will never know
                                Being the modern, progressive and pluralistic Republic that it is, the lion has never really stood a chance (and probably never will). The symbol has to be sensitive to Macedonia's minorities as well as not be seen as offending the neighbours.

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