Archaeology of the Ancient World

[Bill77]

Black Athena.

[Bill77]

Finaly, lets compare the previous two pages of Ancient Greeks with Alexander and Phillip the Macedonians.



Philip the First.
Philip of Makedon




Black Athena 2.

[Bill77]

British museum

Fragment of a basalt water clock

Said to be from Tell el-Yahudiya, Egypt
Macedonian Dynasty, around 320 BC







With the names of Philip Arridaeus
On the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC, the throne of Macedon passed to his half-brother Philip Arridaeus (323-317 BC). He left several monuments in Egypt, of which the most visited is the sanctuary of the Temple of Amun at Karnak. This water-clock is another object which bears his name.


The clock continued to be used into the Roman period (after 30 BC) as can be seen by some Latin letters indicating months on the top.

Latin Letters? so does this mean now Macedonians were Romans?

[Bill77]

The death and burial of a Macedonian soldier in Lincoln

The short epitaph on the tombstone gives us quite a lot of information about Gaius Saufeius, He originally came from Heraclea, a town in Macedonia.





What i find facinating is if you look at the top of his tomb, you will see something resembling the Kutlesh

[Risto the Great]

Very interesting Bill. The Roman influence is prevalent through Macedonia. I don't see Italians stomping their angry little feet about it.

[Bill77]

Very interesting Bill. The Roman influence is prevalent through Macedonia. I don't see Italians stomping their angry little feet about it.

Speaking of influence, I read somewhere where Romans spread Ancient Greek culture. So look out Rome, Greeks will be after you

[Bill77]

Here it is, By John Shea,

Often the Macedonian rulers wanted the Greeks to be working in concert with them, though the Greeks were less enthusiastic about this idea. As already noted, the Macedonian leaders, from about the fourth century B.C., moved increasingly to adopt the use of the Greek language for official affairs, and were attracted by facets of Greek culture. Greek culture was spread widely throughout the world by Macedonians rulers in their Macedonian Empire, and then by Romans in the Byzantine Empire. To be consistent one might just as well argue that since the Romans maintained and spread Greek culture they must have been Greek. Of course this is obviously wrong, but it points to the weakness of this argument when applied to the Macedonians.

[Bill77]

Sory i can't stop, But i must include this aswell i feel its important and goes with my above post.

Macedonia and Greece by John Shea 1997, pp.6-21


It is quite true that Alexander took the Greek language and some aspects of Greek culture to Asia. This was a period of flowering for the Greek language, and for Greek trading influence in the world. The time of Alexander marks a period in Greek history called the Hellenic period for this very reason. However, Alexander did not take that mainstay of Greek culture, democracy, to his new Asian empire, and in time he even abandoned most of the things he had started with, turning to a new blend of Asian, Macedonian and Greek ways. It became more important to appease Asians than to appease Greeks.

The fact that Philip and Alexander used the Greek language for administration and were supposedly "Hellenistic" in orientation has more to do with political manipulation and administrative convenience than any appreciation for the Greeks. This observation is not disputed by historians. Thus the use of the Greek language does not tell us anything about the ethnic or cultural origins of the Macedonians. The English language has had a similar role in recent international history. The third largest English-speaking country in the world today (at least in population terms) is the Philippines, according to that country's own claims. Yet no one would seriously suggest that the people of the Philippines are English, or even American, by race or by culture.

The evidence discussed in this book indicates that Alexander's mother tongue was not Greek, his mother was probably not Greek and his father was not Greek. Eventually Alexander himself became an "internationalist" rather than a Hellenophile, even to the extent of arranging marriages between thousands of Persian women and his own troops in a strange effort to merge the peoples and cultural extremes of his empire.

13. There are no archaeological finds that confirm the racial origins of the Macedonians. In a later section I discuss the writings of R. A. Crossland, who contributed to the Cambridge volumes on ancient history. Crossland thoroughly deals with this question and dismisses as worthless the supposed archaeological evidence about the alleged Greek origins of the Macedonians.

14. To say that the home of the Greek gods was in Macedonia is to embellish the truth. However, the real issue here is not whether a people (the Greeks) would worship its national gods in a foreign country, but whether Greeks believed Macedonians to be foreigners. If the latter is true, and if Greeks worshiped gods from Macedonia, then by definition they worshiped gods from a foreign country. Thus the argument fails if it can be shown that Greek people of ancient times believed that the Macedonians were foreigners. There is no debate among historians about the fact that in historical times the Macedonians and the Greeks saw themselves as separate peoples. The Macadamias were always named separately from the Greeks, even when the two groups were in closest connection under the rule of Philip II, Alexander the Great, and later the Turks. Historians say that the two peoples were held together in ancient times only by force of arms, and as soon as the empire of Alexander collapsed, they split apart once again. So whatever linguistic analysis might be argued these days to suggest similarity of ethnic background for the ancient Greeks and Macedonians (and there is no such analysis that is widely accepted), those ancient peoples knew nothing of it. The Greeks explicitly classified the Macedonians as foreigners. That is what the word "barbaroi," frequently given to the Macedonians and other non-Greek groups, means. Since the ancient Greeks thought of the Macedonians as foreigners, if modern Greeks wish to argue that the home of Greek gods was Macedon, it is evident that the ancient Greeks must, have worshipped gods from the lands of foreigners.

[George S.]

Remember that the Macedonians were barbarians foreigners where one can't even buy a decent slave,But slavery was practised in Greece & not in Macedonia.THese artifaCTS That bill7777 has shown & there are many more scattered throughout the republic of Macedonia the sun emblem of which Greece doesnot want Macedonia to use them.Macedonia has the right to use them because it falls on Macedonian territory.In a lot of the tombs found there are many Macedonian names.The thing is the romans spread Greek culture,then why doesn't the hippocrit Greece claim a connection with the romans as it has done with the Macedonians.THis is because it hasn't stolen Roman history or Roman lands.I'm sure the italians would say something if the Greeks budged.

[Bill77]

Well i love what John Shea says about the symbal George. This guy makes plenty of sence.

It is fine to say that Macedonia, meaning the history of ancient Macedonia, is an indispensable part of Greece's heritage. Given that the Greeks occupy a major part of ancient Macedonian territory, this seems fair enough. The fact that the ancient Macedonians and Greeks despised each other, and that the Macedonians conquered the Greeks, need not be relevant to this aspect of modern political life. However, it does seem quite paradoxical for Greeks to choose as a national symbol a recently discovered emblem used by the hated overlords of ancient times (the Macedonians). The implication that there is a coherent ethnic group existing today, living only in northern Greece, that we could recognize as "Macedonian"- people who have a strong line of descent from the ancient Macedonians - simply cannot be substantiated.


And This about Greece Claims on The Name Macedonia

The name Macedonia was not used until the second century B.C., and it was applied to the country by the Macedonian king, not by a Greek. The term "Macedon' and the expression "land of the Macedons" were used long before that time, though there is debate about the origins of the word "Macedon." Philologists are not certain of its derivation, though Greeks prefer to think that the word comes from Greek. In any case, neither the ancient Macedonians nor the ancient Greeks thought that the Macedonians were Greek; thus the name the Macedonians used for their land must surely belong to them alone. The weight of this issue does not seem to be substantial. :rmacedonia

[Bill77]

Now looking again at this quote by Shea "it does seem quite paradoxical for Greeks to choose as a national symbol a recently discovered emblem"

Proof That The symbol was not newly discovered By the true Macedonians. These are not artifacts just dug up.


Uprising village Razlovci




Traditional Ethnic Macedonian Folk Art




Gates from a House in Prilep Year Built 1750




Another set of Gates




16th rayed Macedonian sun of the 19th century church in Pirin Macedonia




1903 wall decoration with great symbolic of free Macedonia. Just look at the Back ground of this lady.




The Kolovrt as seen on Stone Bridge in Skopje.




Flag of the Ethnic Macedonian revolutionary society in St Petersburg Russia 1914 you will find the sun botom left hand corner.




Bridal jewellery xviii Galichnik




1912 picture by Albert Kahn believed to be one of the first coloured photo. Look at the symbol on the cradel.




Evan our coat of arms had the sun in the back ground.




OOPS how did this get there?

[Bij]

bill, have you just picked up sheas book? that thing, though a bit scanty on some points, should be required reading for all macedonians living in the diaspora

[Bill77]

bill, have you just picked up sheas book? that thing, though a bit scanty on some points, should be required reading for all macedonians living in the diaspora

No, not yet Bij. I have only read a section from a post somewhere else. I will put it on the list of Books to Bye. There are so many books where do i start.

[Bij]

No, not yet Bij. I have only read a section from a post somewhere else. I will put it on the list of Books to Bye. There are so many books where do i start.

this is a good one, but keep in mind shea is not a historian. sometimes his arguments go completely unsubstantiated

[makedonin]

That one is a picture of a clothing chest (large as those of the pirates) and is still to be seen in the House of Robevski in Ohrid. Now this house is transformed into Museum. I have visited this museum in June this year.

I think, the chest was late XVIII early XIX Century.

What is interesting is the fact that on some coins from Philip, the sun symbol is depicted with 12 rays as on the above chest.

By the way, I have been collecting this for a while here