Sparta and the Spartans - The History

[Bill77]

@Sovius

That is a very interesting post.
Perhaps all the scholars/linguists who scrutinized/tested ventris methods did not think of the points you make above in the last 50 years.

Spartan,
You often mention how there are numorous scholars or professionals and universities, and who are we to argue. That argument is a bit misleading my friend (hopefully i can still call you friend).

This is reality and how it works.
I came across this on the Cambridge site.

"Many of the scholars now prominent in Mycenaeology throughout the world were trained at the Laundress Lane and Sidgwick sites, (which is in Cambridge)

So many of these scholars you talk about were sheep.... and who were they to scrutinize/test ventris methods.

This is how we get this conclusions to be accepted by Academia in general. You feed the illiterate and who are they to argue. Then they feed there students and so on and so on.

So it starts with one mans opinion who can make (or make up) an explanation to something unexplained, and get people exited then sell it. Until someone can accurately decipher the linear B, feeding this Gruel to people would have to do.

Academia feels Ventris decipherment is spot - on. Unanimously. No one in 40 years has been able to come up with one iota of evidence to disprove it.

Most Aegean prehistorians (sheep) have accepted (who were not there to judge but to open wide and chew) Ventris' decipherment of 1952. But there are some notable exceptions (e.g. Sinclair Hood). The grounds for continuing to reject the decipherment may be summarized as follows:

(1) The "spelling rules" of Linear B are so complex that a given word as "spelled" in Linear B may be interpreted (that is, transliterated and spelled out in the modern Western European alphabet) in a large number of different ways. It is therefore argued that the interpretation of any one word is a largely subjective process.

(2) Even a "deciphered" Linear B text is often largely or completely unintelligible because the Mycenaean Greek words have no cognates in later Greek. skeptics argue, that the language of Linear B is being forced to become Greek. In a number of cases where words are unintelligible, their lack of "meaning" is explained by the decipherers as being due to the fact that the word in question is a proper name, either of a person or of a place. The skeptics argue that this is a further instance of the decipherers' refusal to admit that Linear B is in fact not Greek at all.

[Spartan]

Okay Bill, I see the light now.
Ill stop paying attention to these silly universities (sheep).

[Sovius]

It appears as though Ventris used various different combinations of sound values for each symbol set until he arrived at groupings of supposed root words that could then be adapted as needed and consistently paired with words from the Greek language, which was in use in the region around a half a millennium later, I believe.

Given the influx of Central European and Danubian populations into the region during the 3rd and 2nd millennium BC, I would think a more conservative system of root words would have been uncovered, if it was actually possible to truly decipher Linear B without a key, like the Rosetta Stone.

Greek was a creole language. What evidence did either the architect or the businessman come across to prompt them to blend IE and Afro-Asiatic words together during this period in time? Why don’t people from Southeastern Germany or Serbija speak Greek, if Ventris was correct? When did they stop wearing togas?

Does anyone have access to documentation regarding any of the methods that Ventris supposedly employed and the evidence (or prior interpretations of evidence) that he used to form these conclusions that came to be accepted so widely by 20th Century Subjectivists (Helleno-centric scholars)? It looks like he may have gotten the ‘A’ value right based on other scripts in use in the area with known values, but how useful is one possible value among so many other unknown characters? Are there other seemingly correct values? What was the basis for professional acceptance here?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Sovius, I am preparing an elaborate thread which I will put up tonight, that specifically goes into detail regarding methodology, criticisms, discoveries, symbol - letter values, inscriptions, etc. I think it should be able to answer some questions and raise some new one's, from where this discussion about Mycenaean can follow on without the 'baggage' that has built up on this thread here.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Unfortunately for you, the cut and paste is not a conclusion I arrived to, but the conclusions of people who I believe are far more qualified than any internet 'historian', i.e us.

But you have nothing further to add to your cut n' paste, no independent research, no critical thought, etc, you have accepted everything at face value, and perhaps you're right, but I am more curious, and I will continue to look into it until I am satisfied.

Although Im sure a scholar here or there may contest these facts, they are certainly a very small minority.

Is that something you added to your post after editing it again? Why are you so sure that some scholars have contested it? If you're interested in being contructive to this discussion, provide the names of these scholars.

Relevant to what?

Next time read the whole paragraph and not just a select few words. What I stated earlier was the following:

If my people stopped at the "research already been done sir", morons would continue believing the falsity of Macedonians being 'Greek'. Because of people like me who have bothered to delve into the subjects and carry out independent research, that is no longer the case. My contribution may be minimal in the greater scheme, but it is relevant, and certainly shouldn't be dismissed at a Macedonian forum by the likes of some vindictive Greek, much less by one who hasn't ever bothered researching the topic he parrots on about.

That was regarding Macedonian research, in response to your suggestion that I should basically quit what I am doing in relation to Mycenaean because the research had "already been done". Do I have to repeat the rest of my paragraph above, or do you understand what I was trying to say? I wasn't suprised at the fact that you completely avoided the parallel I made with the false perceptions of some about Macedonians.

Did I hit a nerve? My apologies.

No, and irrelevant.

No, but you are of the opinion that they are all wrong, and your opposing view is correct.

Where have I written that they are all wrong? Where have I completely disregarded Ventris and Chadwick? Don't waste my time with your irrelevant accusations.

Why would Mycaenean being Greek offend you?

It doesn't, that is a perception that have drawn while you were conjuring classics like the below:

Why on earth would we let books published by universities and highly respected institutions get in the way of the obviously more reliable theories of internet 'historians' with 0 qualifications, or expertise in the languages they are classifying.

Again, I never said what you're implying above, which is, again, irrelevant to the discussion.

Thank you for this advice, but I will partake in any discussion I please, in accordance with the forum rules of course...

It wasn't advice, I am telling you how it is. Feel free to post, I will never prevent anybody from contructive criticism, but if your only intent is to behave like some clown on a vendetta, then I won't allow you to ruin good discussions.

I see no reason wht we cant debate this amicably....we did once upon a time you know.

And this occured to you when, half way through your post? Take a look at our discussion regarding this topic and you tell me who interjected with arrogance, take a look at why we don't debate 'amicably' no more and what caused it. Do you believe I require your forgiveness because of a slight on my behalf? How about the other way around?

Can you show me where I claimed you cited Bogov?
I didnt.
I said your 'theory' is similar to a Bogov theory, not that you cited him.
Take it easy.

No, you said that I am "the one with the Vasil Bogov theory". If you intended to write 'similar' then you forgot.

Your MTO link research is far more relevant I take it?

Than what, your research? Come on, the content in the cut n' paste isn't 'your' research, it is the research of others. I am trying to take a deeper look at things, but you're satisfied with the status quo. End of story. When I read things like this:

Im not going anywhere....I hope (SoM isnt too happy with me these days).

Oh I know Makedonche.
Id have no fear of anything with him to the right of me in a phalanx

I know that you aren't the prick you're pretending to be now, and I know I didn't gain respect for some guy who doesn't have integrity. I don't dislike you Spartan, but I do dislike the predicament we find ourselves in. Just take a look at the first post of this thread on page 1, what am I doing, who am I honouring if not you?

I have opened a new thread about the Mycenaean language, if you wish, participate, but don't bring this shit over there.

[Spartan]

I know that you aren't the prick you're pretending to be now, and I know I didn't gain respect for some guy who doesn't have integrity. I don't dislike you Spartan, but I do dislike the predicament we find ourselves in. Just take a look at the first post of this thread on page 1, what am I doing, who am I honouring if not you?

You are right.
Thank-you for stating this in a clear way.
I apologise if I have offended you, but I felt offended as well, and responded in a manner which isnt like me usually.
I hope we can move forward in a friendlier manner.
Consider any 'prickness' and 'ill-will' drooped from my end.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Water under the bridge, we've learned some things about each other, let's move on. If I offended you then accept my apologies also.

[Spartan]

Thank-you SoM.

[Soldier of Macedon]

While Alexander and the bulk of the Macedonian army were in Asia, the Macedonians under Antipater back home in Macedonia defeated the Spartans under Agis at Megalopolis in Arcadia during 331 B.C. Here are Alexander's reflection about this Spartan rebellion, which collapsed after the defeat.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Agesilaus*.html#note26

..........Alexander actually went so far as to jest when he heard of Antipater's battle with Agis, saying: "It would seem, my men, that while we were conquering Dareius here, there has been a battle of mice there in Arcadia."

[George S.]

Well that certainly proves that there was a difference between the greeks & macedonians.THey were not the same people otherwise why would they fight each other !

[Soldier of Macedon]

George, there are several more reasons than the animosity between Macedonians and Greeks which proves they aren't the same people. The purpose of the quote was to show Alexander's disregarding view of the Spartans and to cite a Macedonian-Spartan battle.

[Bill77]

Which means that there were no 'Hellenes' during the Trojan War, other than that small group cited by Homer, who uses 7th century BC terminology to refer to inhabitants that were alive about 5-700 years earlier. Interesting.

What is the date or year given for the birth of Hellen, son of Deucalion?

I found something interesting by J.A. Rogers, Parker (1917,1918).


Parker (1917,1918) used anthropological, archaeological, historical and classical sources to prove that blacks once lived in the Aegean. Parker (1917,1918) used the Greek classics to prove that the Pelasgians were of African origin. He also discussed the origin stories about the Pelasgic founders of selected Grecian cities and proved that these men were blacks and not Indo-Europeans. Parker (1917, pp.341-42) also observed that "the great Grecian epics are epics of an African people and Helen, the cause of the Trojan war, must henceforth be conceived as a beautiful brown skin girl" . These Africans sailed to the Greece from North Africa.


Early boat used by the ancient Pelasgians in Greece




Using archaeological evidence and the classical literature C.A. Winters (1983b) explained how the African/Black founders of Grecian civilization originally came from the ancient Sahara. Winters(1983b) makes it clear that these Blacks came to the Aegean in two waves 1) the Garamantes a Malinke speaking people that now live along the Niger river, but formerly lived in the Fezzan region of Libya; and 2) the Egyptians, Phoenicians and East Africans who were recorded in Greece's history as the Pelasgians. The Pelasgian civilization has been discussed in detail by Parker (1917,1918).

The Pelasgians founded many cities. The Pelasgian founding of Athens is noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii, 402 ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes. Many of these Athenians may have introduced the Geometric style to Greece during the so-called Dark Ages (1200- 600 BC).

Another by G. W. Parker wrote that:

"I need not go into details concerning the ethnical relations of the Romans, since they, too are Mediterranean and are closely related to the same African confederation of races ...[situated in Greece]. Aeneas, their mythical founder of Troy. The Aenead, like the Illiad, and Odyssey and all other of the world's great epics, is the poetic story dealing with African people". The heroes of these tales used long shields, the characteristic shields of the Indo-European speaking Greeks were round.

[Bill77]

Check this out.

Its a continuation of my above post. It might seem that i'm deviating from the topic but its not. It shows that its plausible that there were no 'Hellenes' during the Trojan War.


Winters (1983b) makes it clear that the Garamantes founded the Greek cities of Thrace, Minoan Crete and Attica. The Garamantes were also called Carians by the Indo-European Greeks.

The Garamantes or Carians originally lived in the Fezzan. These Garamante were described by the Latin classical writers as black or dark skinned: perusti (Lucan 4.679), furvi (Arnoloius, Adversus Nationes , 6.5) and nigri (Anthologia Latina, 155,no.183).

Although these people of the Heroic age came from diverse origins, the Aryan-Greeks called them Pelasgians. According to the Greeks, the first man was Pelasgus--ancestor of the Pelasgians. The Pelasgians were a combination of different Black tribes called Achaeans, Cadmeans, Leleges, Carians or Garamantes.

The term Pelasgian was applied to all these pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Greece. R.J. Hopper, in The Early Greeks, noted that "indeed the classical Greeks believed in the separate existence of diverse ethnic elements side by side, and thought particularly of the Pelasgians in this connection".

According to tradition, the Pelasgians inhabited Arcadia and many Aegean Islands. These Blacks took their own writing to Greece which was later used by the Aryan-Greeks. According to Herodotus quadrigas or four-horse chariots were introduced to Greeks by the Libyans .

The Aryan-Greeks adopted the language of the Pelasgians and Egyptians. The linguistic evidence shows that there was a differentiation of Greece into East Greek and West Greek. The Black Greeks spoke East Greek (Achaioi or Achaean). West Greek was spoken by the Dorian or Aryan Greeks. The earliest Aryan tribe called Ionians spoke a dialect of East Greek called Aeolic.

Many classical scholars teach the world that the Greek language is entirely Indo-European. This view of Greek is wrong.

Dr. Anna Morpurgo Davies, has made it clear that "less than 40% of the words which have an Indo-European etymology". According to Dr. Davies, 52.2 % of the Greek terms in Chantraine's Dictionnaire Etymologique de la langue Grecque (1968) have an unknown etymology. The mixed nature of the Greek language results from the early settlement of the Aegean by Blacks from Africa.

Some of these words are of African origin. Robert K.G. Temple, in The Sirius Mystery, shows that many of the most common words of the Greek vocabulary are of Egyptian origin. Diop (1991) has also discussed the Egyptian origin for many Greek terms.

GARAMANTES

Some of the first African colonists to arrive in Greece came from Crete. These Cretans were called Garamantes. After the goddess Ker or Car, these people also came to be also known as the Carians. The Carians spoke a Mande languages.


A Pelasgian boat from Thera


These people usually sailed to the Islands in Aegean and the surrounding coast were they established prosperous trading communities.

There is frequent mention of the Garamantes of the Fezzan, in Classical literature of Greece and Rome. The Garamantes were recognized as a Black tribe. They were known to the Greeks and Romans as dark skinned. In Ptolemy (I.8.5.,p.31) a Garamante slave was described as having a body the color of pitch or wholly black.

Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river.

The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother.

The classical Carians and Egyptians were very close. Having originated in the Fertile African Crescent they had similar gods and cultural traditions dating back to the Proto-Saharan period.

The Garamantes founded Attica, where they worked the mines at Laureium. Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fruitfulness, came from the Fezzan (Libya) by way of Crete. It was Demeter who took poppy seeds and figs to Europe.

Apollonius Rhodius (.iv.1310) tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Triton in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia by the Cretans in Linear A writing. This shows that the Garamantes took this god to Europe in addition to Demeter and Amon (=Ammon ,Amma).

By 3000 BC, the Garamantes has spread their influence to Thrace and early Hellenic Greece. Hesiod, who was a Kadmean (i.e., of Egyptian descent), in Works and Days , said that before the Hellenic invasion the Grecian people lived in peace and tranquility and had matriarchal societies. The name Europe comes from Aerope, the daughter of King Catreus, a Cretan. Thucydides observed that:

http://clyde.winters.tripod.com/chapter6.html

[lavce pelagonski]

Greeks should value the Spartans more than the stolen history of Macedonia, I have always said to Greeks they should be proud of Sarta and forget about Macedonia

[Bill77]

Greeks should value the Spartans more than the stolen history of Macedonia, I have always said to Greeks they should be proud of Sarta and forget about Macedonia

Lavce,

according to what i posted, the Ancient Hellenes were Black. Nothing wrong with that, but if the modern greeks wish to feel Black (just less gifted down stairs) thats their business