Sparta and the Spartans - The History

[Spartan]

That's if one is to agree that Mycenaean was 'Greek'.

Like all the experts do.
Gotcha.

I don't

Not surprising, as you are no expert when it comes to the Greek language (nor am I) and its evolution .

Furthermore, given that your knowledge about this topic doesn't extend beyond the average cut n' paste that is a managable task even for a primary school child, I won't be relying on your participation for any deliverable answers.

Unfortunately for you, the cut and paste is not a conclusion I arrived to, but the conclusions of people who I believe are far more qualified than any internet 'historian', i.e us.

There is a huge difference. I have a greater understanding of the topic and I am still researching it, whereas your knowledge stops at cut n' paste.

Haha!
Whats in the cut and paste is not "my knowledge".
Wether you have more knowledge, or have done more research than me is irrelevant.
I ask you again, can you show me any linguists/historians who agree, or even better yet proves without a doubt that Mycaenean is not Greek (even though its already been proven to be so)?
Although Im sure a scholar here or there may contest these facts, they are certainly a very small minority.

My contribution may be minimal in the greater scheme, but it is relevant,

Relevant to what?
It would be relevant if you could publish it and 'minimal' is an overstatement. In the greater scheme, your 'theory' is an unsubstantiated idea until you prove otherwise.

If you have nothing to contribute other than repeating what is already stated in the books you cited, then you have little value on this thread. That being the case, don't waste my time with your childish garbage.

Did I hit a nerve? My apologies.
Perhaps you are right.
Why on earth would we let books published by universities and highly respected institutions get in the way of the obviously more reliable theories of internet 'historians' with 0 qualifications, or expertise in the languages they are classifying.

Did I ask you to disregard what they have written?

No, but you are of the opinion that they are all wrong, and your opposing view is correct. I dispute this, and posted the views of those qualified to prove your conclusion wrong.

Is this your attempt at insulting or offending me?

No.
Its not personal whatsoever.
Why would Mycaenean being Greek offend you?

Is this your purpose on the forum now, to behave like some useless condescending prick that is still bitching on the inside about something that happened months ago?

No, i forgave you for that the next day.
Dont stress it.

Thanks for the advice, I will stick with early IE or Proto IE for now.

Stick to being wrong as well in that case I guess, or at best, to share the opinion of very few who are qualified enough to have an opinion.
What can i tell you

If my research into this topic bothers you and prevents you from being constructive, then stay out of the discussion.

Thank you for this advice, but I will partake in any discussion I please, in accordance with the forum rules of course, thank-you very much.
No need to get nasty my friend.

Can you show me where I have cited Bogov?

Can you show me where I claimed you cited Bogov?
I didnt.
I said your 'theory' is similar to a Bogov theory, not that you cited him.
Take it easy.
I see no reason wht we cant debate this amicably....we did once upon a time you know.

If not, I suggest you tone down your lies, they are generating a stench, and I don't appreciate it.

Funny coming from one who is lieing when saying that Mycaenean is not an early form of Greek. Perhaps you should take your own advice.
I agree the stench being generated in this thread is very unpleasant.
And im not 'generating' it on my own either.

aside from the cut n' paste, you're irrelevant to the discussion.

Your MTO link research is far more relevant I take it?
My cut and paste is the tip of the iceburg.
Let me know if you want to see more.

[makedonche]

Spartan

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here? With what little research I have managed to do it leads me to ask a few questions if I may?
Michael Ventris - an architect who spoke several languages, died at age 34, began "guessing" the Linear B decipherments- source Wiki - have you done any detailed reseach into his credibility or accuracy?
Sir Arthur Evans - Extraordinary Professor of Ancient Archaeology - had different views on the origins of the Minoan/Cretan civilisations - have you read any of his books or checked his credibility?

[Spartan]

Makedonche

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here?

Not in the least. Actually, Im glad you did.

Michael Ventris - an architect who spoke several languages,

He was also a classical scholar, and had a very good grasp of ancient Greek, as well as latin. And yes, he spoke 6 languages.

have you done any detailed reseach into his credibility or accuracy?

Considering institutions such as Cambridge, and Thames and Hudson (to name a few), have published his work, I trust his credibility and accuracy is of the highest level.

Sir Arthur Evans - Extraordinary Professor of Ancient Archaeology - had different views on the origins of the Minoan/Cretan civilisations - have you read any of his books or checked his credibility?

Not much, but from what little I do know, he incorrectly assumed Linear B was not greek, but akin to LinearA (Minoan), which is yet to be deciphered.

Wiki - he succeeded in cutting off any investigation into the possibility that the language on the tablets was Greek, despite some hints that this was the case.

died at age 34, began "guessing" the Linear B decipherments- source Wiki

I believe he proved hgis 'guesses' in the end. Otherwise, who would take his work seriously? Why would his conclusions be accepted by Academia in general?

As for checking the credibility of the methods Ventris used to decipher the Linear B, I am not qualified to 'check' his work, as i am not educated in that field, and wouldnt know a 'right' method from a 'wrong' one. I trust the Universities and experts in this field to provide those answers. In the case of linear B, they have.

This is my opinion.
If someone could prove it wrong, so be it, i stand corrected.

[makedonche]

Spartan
Thanks for your reply and the answers, whilst I respect your opinion and can see the sources you are quoting I am still left somewhat on the fence and uncertain. Guess I'll have to do some more research to convince myself. It begs the question how an architect of young age could decipher the Linear B accurately? still, I'll keep researching !

[Bill77]

Spartan
Thanks for your reply and the answers, whilst I respect your opinion and can see the sources you are quoting I am still left somewhat on the fence and uncertain. Guess I'll have to do some more research to convince myself. It begs the question how an architect of young age could decipher the Linear B accurately? still, I'll keep researching !

Well if you go with the flow you would get accepted. If you create waves, you would be branded everything and anything. How dare anyone go against what the university or professors understand. IF Octopus Paul tipped what the mainstream think, he would also be awarded a PHD.



@Spartan,

Do you think any professionals in any fields (doctors, mechanics, politicians, historians etc) never get things wrong?

Do you believe that questioning and further research which creates progress and improvement is important?

Or do you accept what is known now (re Mycenaean was Greek) by some to be the be all and end all and.....Gospel ? To me it seems you are happy to close the book on this occasion because it suits.

[Spartan]

@Spartan,

Do you think any professionals in any fields (doctors, mechanics, politicians, historians etc) never get things wrong?

Sure they do, but these instances are the exception. Otherwise, how could they be considered "professionals", or "experts"?

Do you believe that questioning and further research which creates progress and improvement is important?

Sure.

Or do you accept what is known now (re Mycenaean was Greek) by some to be the be all and end all and.....Gospel ?

Of course not. Id rather put all my faith into unsabstantiated conclusions that no respectable institution would even entertain listening to, nevermind publishing!
Seriously though.
Academia feels Ventris decipherment is spot - on. Unanimously. No one in 40 years has been able to come up with one iota of evidence to disprove it. Considering we are not qualified in this field, how can we outright label the decipherment as false? You want to argue with Cambridge, London press etc etc, go ahead, be my guest. If i was a betting man, I wouldnt be betting against them though.

To me it seems you are happy to close the book on this occasion because it suits.

Actually the opposite is true.
You would like to dispute it because it doesnt (suit).

@ Makedonche

Cheers mate

[Sovius]

Whoops! I just accidentally deconstructed the Linear B script in its entirety. My apologies, but can we even be sure that this set of symbols are even syllabic in nature? There could be other explanations. If it is syllabic, which seems reasonable, given the repetitiveness of symbols, without a key to compare it against (Linear A, which it is thought to be based on is still un-deciphered), it remains speculation and will be until some artifact from that place in time allows us to truly make sense of these inscriptions, no matter how many studies and text books that have been published on the subject, which treat the previous attempt as correct.

Linear B is regarded as originating from a non-Greek language, meaning, its not a Greek script at all, rather, it came to be used by a people who weren’t Greek either, but, rather, a people who came to be thought of as Greeks. It has been either correctly or incorrectly attributed to Eto-Cretan culture and, based on my understanding, it, if Ventris was correct to begin with, is largely made up of proper names (warning sign) and afro-asiatic commodity terms.

I found this interesting. The proposed word Kora, apparently, according to Ventris and his decipherment scheme, actually meant korus (helmet in ancient whateverian (Ancient Greek according to some). In Chemistry, when one adds another atom to a molecule, that molecule becomes something entirely different than what it was before. Should the laws that govern the universe not apply to the interpretation of anthropological evidence, as well? If so, we are looking at kora, if Ventris was correct. What gave this guy the right to anachronistically add such a suffix, if such a suffix was not originally arrived at using the scheme that came to be used to supposedly de-cipher the script, which may not even be a script in the most objective case in the first place?

If Ventris truly utilized the Architectural, I mean Scientific, Method and the values he produced are, in fact, accurate, I would look towards the Este Tablet as a possible guide as far as making sense of a language that existed in the center of a number of different cultures that all, apparently, spoke languages that were inflectional in nature and continue to display lexical similarities.

It's all about the vowels and where they are positioned, it would seem.

[makedonche]

Spartan
After all the lies,misinformation, human errors etc. by so called qualified and certified experts, over the years one thing for sure is it is impossible to say something is 100% accurate or 100% provable. It's important to be able to question findings, opinions and people throughout history, if what they assert stands up to scrutiny through time then eventually it becomes accepted as being correct, however as time goes by and new techniques and technology arise these assertions may well end up being incorrect. Most importantly for us Macedonians the willful destruction of our history - including books,maps,diaries and even scholars, leads us to be sceptical about history and historians(linguists,archaeologists etc.) Perhaps once Macedonians have invistigated their lands/ruins and archaeological finds as extensively as other nations and written their own history, then we may be able to stand back and compare with what's written and what we disagree/agree with. Previously history was written by the victorious or by the wealthy, fortuneatly this is changing to the point where even an ordinary person can contribute to writing history. Many who have come before us we are grateful to - but just as many we do not forgive - for the very attempt at perversing a people's history, language or culture is abhorrent and results in the spread of falsehood.
Hence the skepticism!

[Spartan]

@Sovius

That is a very interesting post.
Perhaps all the scholars/linguists who scrutinized/tested ventris methods the last 50 years did not think of the points you make above.
Perhaps you could get the necessary support to have your ideas published, disprove the current classification of the Mycaenean language, and put this whole 'debate' to an end once and for all.

@Makedonche

I hear you my friend, and see what you are saying. Good post.
After(if) you investigate this further please post what conclusion you arrive to.
I'd be very interested to read it.
Cheers

[makedonche]

@Sovius

That is a very interesting post.
Perhaps all the scholars/linguists who scrutinized/tested ventris methods did not think of the points you make above in the last 50 years.
Perhaps you could have your ideas published and disprove the current classification of the Mycaenean language, and put this whole debate to an end once and for all.

@Makedonche

I hear you my friend, and see what you are saying. Good post.
After(if) you investigate this further please post what conclusion you arrive to.
I'd be very interested to read it.
Cheers

Spartan
Will do, might take a while though! One of the things that caught my attenton was that the site at the Knossos palace was bought Sir Arthur and he ran it pretty well his way- interesting stuff- more to come soon.

[Spartan]

^^Sir Arthur also wouldnt let anyone have access to the tablets he discovered there for like 20 years, as he wanted the glory of deciphering them himself!
What a dick.

Looking forward to your conclusion on the matter.

[makedonche]

[QUOTE=Spartan;63796]^^Sir Arthur also wouldnt let anyone have access to the tablets he discovered there for like 20 years, as he wanted the glory of deciphering them himself!
What a dick.

Looking forward to your conclusion on the matter.[/QUOT

Spartan
Conclusion could be a while coming! - but interesting subject, just another question - has Linear A been deciphered/in the process of decipher? Actually 2 questions- do you know much about it?

[Spartan]

As far as I know, Linear A is still undeciphered, and is not Greek, but Minoan.
Not sure if its being worked on still.

As for the conclusion, dont worry, take your time.
Im not going anywhere....I hope (SoM isnt too happy with me these days).

[makedonche]

As far as I know, Linear A is still undeciphered, and is not Greek, but Minoan.
Not sure if its being worked on still.

As for the conclusion, dont worry, take your time.
Im not going anywhere....I hope (SoM isnt too happy with me these days).

Spartan
Excuse my lack of knowledge here, but were the Linear A tablets also discovered in the same vicinity?
Have no fears about SoM, he;s very passionate,articulate,unforgiving and uncompromising but his Integrity is unquestionable!

[Spartan]

Spartan
Excuse my lack of knowledge here, but were the Linear A tablets also discovered in the same vicinity?

I believe the LinearA(minoan) tablets were exclusively found in Crete, whereas the Linear B tablets were found in the peloponnese as well as Crete. From the reading Ive been doing, it seems the Linear b script was 'altered' from the linear A, in order to accomodate the Mycaenean language. So obviously the Minoans and Mycaeneans were not ignorant of one another.

Have no fears about SoM, he;s very passionate,articulate,unforgiving and uncompromising but his Integrity is unquestionable!

Oh I know Makedonche.
Id have no fear of anything with him to the right of me in a phalanx