Vasil Iljov and the Inscriptions in Macedonia

[Risto the Great]

But we should hold them accountable for their words and actions.

This is true, but even we have our own theories that (through lack of information) should make us be held to account. The point being we don't need to be the enemy of these people. As a principle, I would rather encourage new thought and theories from Macedonians than to discourage them.

[indigen]

Educating the Macedonian masses doesn't end with schoolchildren, a large proportion of our adults are also yet to be adequately educated on our historical truth. Iljov does not seek to have his material scrutinised by others around the world, but instead displays it on the internet and talks about it in Macedonia only. This is a huge problem, and the 'danger' of such extreme revisionism (irrespective of his good intentions) produced for domestic consumption should not be underestimated.

Yeah, I should have included the higher education system together with the school education one because they produced even greater negative results amongst Macedonians who graduated through it.

Then you're not thinking about this clearly.

So be it!

I am not interested in a brand of 'patriotism' that is built on such an uncorroborated foundation.

SOM, I don't wish to beat this topic to death by going around in circles with you and whilst I had no real issue with you original first post, I now do have some concerns with the content of this post. FYI, I do not consider Vasil Iljov's patriotism to be based on his latest theories but rather on his public political stands and activities such as his opposition to the "Ramkoven dogovor" in 2001 and his media campaigns on the current trends for total deconstructions of the Macedonian entity and state and his efforts for a revision of the education system in order to reflect Macedonian indigenity and continuity from ancient times to present day. People taking those stands publicly in print (plus online) and on television are few and far between and deserve to be respected for it.

What appeals to me is patriotism built on solid foundations, the type we can find here at the MTO, where we allow and accept criticism in pursuit of the truth, and continue to build upon solid ground.

There is also lot of garbage being posted here that hardly gets challenged or some of these characters outlast the will of others to continually respond to spam and propaganda. But l don't wish to go into that here and now.

I would have a monumentally greater respect for the guy if he put forth his works for criticism, even if he was proven wrong.

Look, I really am not too concerned about his theories but rather that he takes a stand on political issues, though I do realise that his theories (deciphering of ancient scripts/rock art) may be what has given him a higher public profile amongst Macedonians. You can discuss the pros and cons of how to go about the "verification" of his work with Dimko or someone else.

Tell me, what possible benefit does his 77,000 year old theory provide for Macedonians? Pride?

I don't know. If it was up to me, I would not have gone much further than 10k years but you should ask Vasil Iljov directly in order to get the right answer (valid or not).

So pochit,
I.

Over and out on this topic.

[indigen]

Indigen, (and I ask you with all due respect and purely out of curiosity) why do you write Stefou instead of Stefov? I could be wrong, but, I don't think he goes by Stefou anymore.

As far as I am aware, Chris Stefou is his official name (derived from his own emails and online posting info) and he uses "Risto Stefov" amongst Macedonian circles in an unofficial (as an alias) way. I don't like pretend names and thus I refer to him by his real (official) name. If you can provide evidence for "Risto Stefov" now being his official name, then I will use it exclusively.

So pochit,
I.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is true, but even we have our own theories that (through lack of information) should make us be held to account.

Which theories? How do you rate them in extremity and counter-productiveness when compared to Iljov's 77,000 year old inscriptions that apparently write "Makedonia"? Please be specific if you're going to address this.

The point being we don't need to be the enemy of these people. As a principle, I would rather encourage new thought and theories from Macedonians than to discourage them.

People like Iljov are unwittingly making themselves our enemies by making outrageous suggestions which our young and ignorant are swallowing up. I take issue with patriotism based on wildly uncorroborated 'concepts'. You should too, along with every other honest Macedonian seeking the truth.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yeah, I should have included the higher education system together with the school education one because they produced even greater negative results amongst Macedonians who graduated through it.

I was referring to the average Traiko watching that "zhurnal" show or reading the history section of a Macedonian newspaper where Iljov promotes his 'theories'. I don't want my people walking and talking in ignorance or priding themselves on some seeming fantasy from 77,000 year ago, irrespective if they are children, teens, adults or elderly.

So be it!

You're opinion cannot be therefore taken seriously regarding this matter.

I now do have some concerns with the content of this post.

What is your concern? Why do you keep referring to Iljov's political convictions with the aim of sidelining his outrageous theories? They are two separate matters. A wife-beater could be a proud Macedonian, does that mean we ignore the former on account of the latter?

People taking those stands publicly in print (plus online) and on television are few and far between and deserve to be respected for it.

And for that, I do respect him. For that. Not for the rest.

There is also lot of garbage being posted here that hardly gets challenged or some of these characters outlast the will of others to continually respond to spam and propaganda. But l don't wish to go into that here and now.

At least here, you're afforded the opportunity to criticise and scrutinise that 'garbage', and question the author. Clearly, you're uncomfortable with this concept unless it is you making the criticism.

Look, I really am not too concerned about his theories but rather that he takes a stand on political issues....

Your involvement in this thread was therefore unnecessary, and, where it concerns the topic being discussed, largely irrelevant.

I don't know. If it was up to me, I would not have gone much further than 10k years but you should ask Vasil Iljov directly in order to get the right answer (valid or not).

Dimko indicated that the dating was done by others, but it is only Iljov that managed to 'identify' an inscription in the Phoenician script 70,000 + years prior to its creation. You haven't been following this topic properly, in future, you should make the effort before you come flying in to the defence of something that wasn't being attacked.

[Pelister]

No one has been able to tell us why his claims are 'ludicrous'.

I'm not prepared to be swayed by criticism of him, and his work, simply because it has been expressed. I have my own criticisms of him, but it has to do with not allowing foreign 'experts' in to take a closer look. I don't think thats enough ground to write him off, completely. I think he could be onto something, but time will tell.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No one has been able to tell us why his claims are 'ludicrous'.

See below:

1) The rock referred to by Iljov that has these scratches or engraved lines was dated as being 77,000 years old by others. Perhaps it is that old, I am not disputing it.

2) Around 7,000 years ago, some parts of Europe used 'Linear' forms as an alphabet, as evidence by the 'Dispilio' tablet that was discovered in Kostur, (Greek-occupied) Macedonia.

3) Around 3,000 years ago, the Phoenician script, which is ancestral to most modern alphabets in Europe today, evolved from Proto-Sinaitic. It is not present in Europe prior to this time.

Iljov claims that the word 'Makedonia' has been engraved in a 77,000 year old rock - in a Phoenician-looking alphabet that has only existed for 3,000 years. That, is ludicrous. If what I have said above is wrong, then I welcome anybody to chime in and correct me. Perhaps they can start by revealing the other finds from 60,000 years ago, 50,000 years ago, 40,000 years ago, etc, to support Iljov's theory that the Macedonian name has been in continued use for so long?

[Vangelovski]

I apologise if I'm repeating anything, I haven't had the chance to read the thread in its entirety, or if I've misunderstood Iljov's claim, but I wanted to make a point.

It appears that Iljov is making the claim that he has found a 77,000 year old rock with an inscription on it. He appears to have taken the logic that if the rock was created 77,000 years ago, then the inscription must also be 77,000 years old, i.e., that the inscription was made at the same time the rock came into existence. This is ludicrous.

The age of the rock itself is a separate question to the date that the inscription was made. It does not matter when the rock came into existence, rather the question is at what point in time did a human make those inscriptions on the rock? There is absolutely no way to date that inscription with the information available.

Another point is that written languages have only existed for approximately 5-6,000 years. To claim that there were a group of humans with a written language 77,000 years ago...or is it 102,010 years ago... is just pure fantasy.

As to what that inscription actually means, it is impossible to decode without a large sample of words. Even the third language of the Rosetta Stone is virtually impossible to decifer without further samples and that has much more text. To find a few symbols and then claim they say "Macedonia" is just plain idiotic. I could make the claim that they say "Paddle Pop", not explain how I came to that conclusion and then challenge everyone to prove me wrong.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Completely agree with all of the above, a sensible assessment.

[julie]

Why does Iljov not come forward and state his claim on what he basis it all on. Vangelovski is not a historian, however, the analytical way he has presented his argument makes sense, yes, the rock is old, I really dont care how old, and with carbon dating etc and the way they measure geological finds, that can be proven. As he has stated, and it is an analysis in lateral thinking, its WHEN the rock was inscribed that cannot be accurately determined.
I also agree with SoM, you will have gullible naive well meaning patriotic Makedontsi going hoo haa and proudly spouting the virtues of how old Macedonia is, in existence.
We need out historians to publish works with FACTS for the last few thousand years, it is to our greatest detriment that this has not occured,
I am not disputing the patriotism of the man, but he will surely lose credibility in the academic world with the insistence the actual writing is umpteen thousand years old, when in fact, it is just the rock

MTO, we need to publish a book on the facts we have!

[Pelister]

I apologise if I'm repeating anything, I haven't had the chance to read the thread in its entirety, or if I've misunderstood Iljov's claim, but I wanted to make a point.

It appears that Iljov is making the claim that he has found a 77,000 year old rock with an inscription on it. He appears to have taken the logic that if the rock was created 77,000 years ago, then the inscription must also be 77,000 years old, i.e., that the inscription was made at the same time the rock came into existence. This is ludicrous.

The age of the rock itself is a separate question to the date that the inscription was made. It does not matter when the rock came into existence, rather the question is at what point in time did a human make those inscriptions on the rock? There is absolutely no way to date that inscription with the information available.

Another point is that written languages have only existed for approximately 5-6,000 years. To claim that there were a group of humans with a written language 77,000 years ago...or is it 102,010 years ago... is just pure fantasy.

As to what that inscription actually means, it is impossible to decode without a large sample of words. Even the third language of the Rosetta Stone is virtually impossible to decifer without further samples and that has much more text. To find a few symbols and then claim they say "Macedonia" is just plain idiotic. I could make the claim that they say "Paddle Pop", not explain how I came to that conclusion and then challenge everyone to prove me wrong.

I would agree with each point you made here.

I suspect however that he is talking about the 'inscription' and not the age of the rock itself, if you consider that most rocks are not thousands of years old, or hundreds of thousands, but rather millions of years old. But having said that Vasil has not made it clear how he dates these 'finds', so that is an issue. Which raises the next point of how one can authenticate the etchings and markings. A point in his favor is that the etchings and markings appear in other regions of the balkans, not just the Macedonian Republic, assuming of course they are genuine. The point you made that written languages have only existed for 5-6000 years is less persuasive. These are essentially languages that have been preserved, which is why we know about them. They were not the 'first' languages to be written, they are only the first languages written that we know about.

I like Vasil Ilyov and what he is doing, I just wish he would let outside 'experts' in various fields to actually do the field work with him. Now, if a group of foriegners had, for instance, discovered a rock with the same etchings on it, that Vasil Ilyov claims to have found, it would make many stand up and take note.

[Soldier of Macedon]

But having said that Vasil has not made it clear how he dates these 'finds', so that is an issue.

Watch the videos, he indicates that others have dated the rocks. One minute he talks about writing from left to right, the other, from right to left. All of these, mind you, are in the same Phoenician-type "script" which didn't exist before 3,000 years ago. Here is an example of how Vasil deciphers these inscriptions:


With this sort of methodology, Vangelovski's 'paddle pop' suggestion doesn't seem too far-fetched. In one such example (towards the end of the clip) he even makes reference to a similar 'inscription' in a stone from South Africa, during which he claims the material culture to be from 200,000 years ago. Let's get serious here, and more importantly, start taking ourselves and our history seriously. We don't need this sort of stuff holding back progress.

I like Vasil Ilyov and what he is doing, I just wish he would let outside 'experts' in various fields to actually do the field work with him.

Pelister, perhaps there is a good reason why Vasil has not submitted his 'findings' to independent bodies for consultation, verification and feedback. Perhaps he doesn't want to hear their response. Perhaps he doesn't care for the response of others, irrespective of who they are. Both reasons (excuses) are poor. I can't think of any others, maybe you can help me.

[Vangelovski]

I watched the clip again, and in addition to the script you have taken a snapshot of SoM, he provides a number of other scripts, which any layman can see are completely different. Yet he claims that they are all 'Macedonian' scripts. How many different scripts did we have (according to Iljov)?

[Pelister]

All the points you have made a valid, and I agree with practially all of them. I think that some of the claims he has been making, particularly after looking at that clip, defy everything we know, and appear on the surface of it to be too far fetched to warrant any serious consideration. I wish he would pull his head in a bit, because assuming that some of the finds are in fact genuine - he could in fact be doing us more harm than good if he is in fact (and this is another assumption) 'replicating them'. I don't want to suggest that some of them are forgeries, but that is a possibility I have to concede. I know he is a patriot, and I know he loves Macedonia, and a part of me respects him for that, but the fact is before he gets too out of control he needs to let others in, because when you strip down his more exaggerated claims I actually think he is onto something very important. If some of these finds are in fact genuine (and I believe they are), there is a possibility he could be tarneshing all of it if he continues the course.

[Dimko-piperkata]

How many different scripts did we have (according to Iljov)?

discover his site and u will get the answer

http://www.unet.com.mk/ancient-macedonians-part2/